Calvinism, explained.

[sdowney717]

I'm sure Adolf Hitler was right about some things, too, but this doesn't mean there's any use for Mein Kampf. Theology is not like political science, to debate. In fact, there is only truth and that which is not truth. Christianity is spiritually discerned, is not voted on, and it does not matter who wins some silly debate, if their view is error that damages the faith.

Christianity is hitched to one man, the God man, Jesus Christ, religion men debate completely immaterial, when it's derailed from the truth of inspired scripture. It is also my stance that a teacher who is in grave error is not worthy of being a teacher of scripture, have no interest in any man lacking Holy Spirit truth. I have no use for the writings of men I have to sort through, to glean the truth, no use for being subjected to what are often huge lies, when there is scripture and reliable, Spirit filled scholarship available I don't have to weed through. Neither do I have any use for some denominational cult of any man, all of which are out there on their own, for violating scripture truth and separating themselves, in their error, from the rest of the body of Christ. Again:

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Ephesians 4:11
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

He Himself, that is Christ authorized some teachers, not all teachers are of Christ, some are false prophets, false pastors, false teachers, etc...
'Christianity is hitched to one man', yet Christ gave some as teachers to the church. There exist teachers for God's purposes, they are authorized and anointed by God. Your 'opinion' of what is 'grave error', seems very much anti calvinist to me. Your 'opinion' though is worthless, what matters is only the scripture, and of that are many various opinions on what it means. God's Holy Spirit though is the author and scripture is not open to a private interpretation by man. Scripture is only known as the truth with understanding when the Holy Spirit teaches us, His Spirit to our spirit.
Many though are and will be deceived.

An example is the elect of Matthew 24 and the rapture.
Matthew 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

So we see Christ says many will be deceived in the last days.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The 'elect' are on the earth even immediately after the tribulation of those days. Yet many people teach and believe in the 'pre tribulation' rapture of the church. Yet Christ teaches His elect are still on the earth. even when shown these scriptures of Christ's own description of the last days, and Christ does not teach a pre trib rapture, they remain unwavering and deceived.

So then what deceptions do you hold onto?

 

[Salem]

The proof is on the Calvinist to reconcile their beliefs with the Bible. I already do.

Which is impossible, the entire Bible about our God telling us to choose righteousness. Calvinism crossing over into stupidity, void of common sense, regardless that God wishes none to perish, 2 Peter 3:9, regardless "whosoever" of John 3:16, and many, many more verses that plainly contradict the Calvinist's bizarre doctrines.

They have a God that does not exist, is capricious, creating damned and saved babies, their God telling people to choose that the Calvinist claims aren't able to choose: it's all ridiculous. It would appear they don't even know themselves, that we all have wills to make choices, by nature.

As mentioned in another post, though, I don't hear anybody subscribing to these things, can't remember the last time hearing that junk preached. I believe it's just an online controversy that people are trolling over, since I don't hear this from anybody in real life environments. Most of what goes on in the online environment is trolling over some error, even to the point of some reviving ancient heresies, to pick fights over.

 

[tulipbee]

I'm sure Adolf Hitler was right about some things, too, but this doesn't mean there's any use for Mein Kampf. Theology is not like political science, to debate. In fact, there is only truth and that which is not truth. Christianity is spiritually discerned, is not voted on, and it does not matter who wins some silly debate, if their view is error that damages the faith.

Christianity is hitched to one Man, the God man, Jesus Christ, religion men debate completely immaterial, when it's derailed from the truth of inspired scripture. It is also my stance that a teacher who is in grave error is not worthy of being a teacher of scripture, have no interest in any man lacking Holy Spirit truth. I have no use for the writings of men I have to sort through, to glean the truth, no use for being subjected to what are often huge lies, when there is scripture and reliable, Spirit filled scholarship available I don't have to weed through. Neither do I have any use for some denominational cult of any man, all of which are out there on their own, for violating scripture truth and separating themselves, in their error, from the rest of the body of Christ. Again:

1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Blah blah blah, Jesus is still my Lord

 

[Salem]

So then, did Jesus/God predestine one to get lost and Jesus would go find them and bring them back?

It is amazing, isn't it? They'd have Christ seeking the predestined lost?

 

[sdowney717]

And about that 'great sound of a trumpet' Paul teaches more here about those who are left alive (on the earth) till Christ's coming.
For some are deceived thinking Matthew 24 elect believers are already in heaven at that time having been raptured.

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[sdowney717]

It is amazing, isn't it? They'd have Christ seeking the predestined lost?

Christ came to seek and to save the lost, that is the lost sheep of Christ who are of Abraham's seed, who are of God's promise to Abraham according the the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

This has never changed, this is still the truth of where Christ is sent.
Any one who has faith is proven to be of that house of Israel, that is Abraham's seed.
Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

IF your an heir, then your an inheritor of eternal life according to God's promise HE made to Abraham.
And that is to where Christ is sent, only to the lost sheep of that house of Israel, which you are if you belong to Christ.
The lost sheep belong to Christ and He goes and finds them, since He is their good shepherd, which is the parable of the lost sheep.

Who does Christ help to salvation?
The seed of Abraham.
Hebrews 2
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

 

[EmSw]

It is amazing, isn't it? They'd have Christ seeking the predestined lost?

I've already asked this. Did God predestined you to be a lost sinner? I got no answers, for that would mean God's predestination changes.

Those who think they are predestined to salvation, can't be sure of it, for God could change it at any moment, and predestine them to hell.

 

[Patmos]

It's not an action. It's a fact. The elects already heard and the unregenerates are foolish. The unsaved hope it's an action so they can can earn salvation themselves so they can fit in christanity. Man is too total depraved to do anything for themselves.

Are they predestined to hope ?

 

[Patmos]

The unregenerates looks for ways to get out of it. They create self salvation works and tells God they deserve heaven on demand.

Are they predestined to do this ?

 

[Patmos]

Which is impossible, the entire Bible about our God telling us to choose righteousness. Calvinism crossing over into stupidity, void of common sense, regardless that God wishes none to perish, 2 Peter 3:9, regardless "whosoever" of John 3:16, and many, many more verses that plainly contradict the Calvinist's bizarre doctrines.

They have a God that does not exist, is capricious, creating damned and saved babies, their God telling people to choose that the Calvinist claims aren't able to choose: it's all ridiculous. It would appear they don't even know themselves, that we all have wills to make choices, by nature.

As mentioned in another post, though, I don't hear anybody subscribing to these things, can't remember the last time hearing that junk preached. I believe it's just an online controversy that people are trolling over, since I don't hear this from anybody in real life environments. Most of what goes on in the online environment is trolling over some error, even to the point of some reviving ancient heresies, to pick fights over.

I would add James White youtube.

Anyone know if he preaches the same stuff from the pulpit ?

 

[Salem]

I've already asked this. Did God predestined you to be a lost sinner? I got no answers, for that would mean God's predestination changes.

Those who think they are predestined to salvation, can't be sure of it, for God could change it at any moment, and predestine them to hell.

Study scripture predestination. Scripture predestination is about those who have received Jesus Christ being conformed to the image of Christ. Start with looking at 1 Timothy 2, paying note to the clear statement in v4. This one verse blows false Calvinistic predetermination completely out of the water, along with others, but this one verse enough.

God having foreknowledge of all things doesn't mean He is the author of men's sinful choices, or has forced His will on the saved. God may know the number of hairs on your head, even how you'll cut it, in the future, but this doesn't mean He chose your hair style. He may know what you will eat for breakfast any given day, but didn't choose which cereal or that it would be eggs. That God transcends time, scripture proves, but this doesn't mean He has any hand in sin and evil. It this not entirely obvious? He knows what the antichrist will do, in every detail, but does that mean God is antichrist? That He made antichrist's choices?

Biblical predestination has solely to do with being conformed to the image of Christ, study Romans 8. The answers are in scripture. Like all truth, we only need seek that truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Less time in forums, more time prayerfully seeking and studying God's truths in scripture can work wonders. After awhile, you can say you've got the answers, and know when to take a pass on all the foolishness, pandemic these days. You're seeing so much here that was thoroughly discredited, generations ago, just a rehash of some very old error that makes for "good" internet fights, that nasty and unprofitable people enjoy.

Find Spirit filled saints of God, sound, fundamentalist Bible teachers, good commentaries, looking for shared agreements among sources, to help you with scripture. The most direct path to truth is not a congregation where tares and trolls also have a voice, and make the most noise. I can't believe people would even say a lot that you see in forums and still claim Christ.

 

[Patmos]

The object of "predestination" in Rom. 8:29 is "to be conformed to the image of his Son".

 

[Salem]

I would add James White youtube.

Anyone know if he preaches the same stuff from the pulpit ?

Sorry, unfamiliar. I ran out of rubber gloves, for keying in YouTube searches. (Just kidding. There is some good stuff on YouTube, if you've got all day to find it.)

 

[tulipbee]

Are they predestined to hope ?

Hope is on man's time while predestination is on God's time. Just cause you're garenteed to be saved via knowing you're saved doesn't mean you can murder and not be accountable for it. All that is left in man's time is hope due to not knowing the mystery

 

[tulipbee]

Are they predestined to do this ?

If an action is done without God's envolvment, then that action would never have existed. Folks want to leave God out and create imaginations to believe in. Lots of fantasies here on tol

 

[tulipbee]

I've already asked this. Did God predestined you to be a lost sinner? I got no answers, for that would mean God's predestination changes.

Those who think they are predestined to salvation, can't be sure of it, for God could change it at any moment, and predestine them to hell.

God never had to change. Men thought wrong

 

[Patmos]

If an action is done without God's envolvment, then that action would never have existed. Folks want to leave God out and create imaginations to believe in. Lots of fantasies here on tol

Hmm, still no idea what you are on about! NM

 

[tulipbee]

Hmm, still no idea what you are on about! NM

People think they don't need God and think they're doing things on thier own. This is cause cthe RCC told them so

 

[SnowyMacie]

God has a plan.

It would be strange to say in one sentence that God, having infinite wisdom and power, would create all things and have no definite and perfect plan for those things. Even a man, who is subject to all kinds of errors, develops a plan or idea before he acts; and a man who starts a housing project without design or purpose we'd consider foolish. If this is true of men, how much more is it true of God? And since we believe that God is infinite, His plan must extend to every single detail for ALL these things. We cannot conceive of God bringing into existence a universe without a plan which would extend to all that would happen and all things in that universe. The Scriptures teach that God's providential control extends to everything, therefore His plan too must be equally comprehensive.

God has the best possible plan for this world, and Calvinists hold strongly to the understanding of His ruling power and trust in Him. The Calvinist recognizes that God is God, and He is free from all human limitations. Nothing, however small, occurs without His ordering or design for its place in the working out of His purposes; and the end of all shall be the manifestation of His glory. The sinful acts of men are included in this plan, even the fall itself. These acts are foreseen, permitted and have their exact place in the Divine design. Just look at the crucifixion of Christ for the example, being both a horrible sinful crime and the saving event for His people, it had its exact and necessary place in the plan as told by the prophets.

History in all its details and the smallest actions of men is but the unfolding of the eternal purposes of God. His decrees are not successively formed as the emergency arises, but are all parts of one all-comprehending plan, and we should never think of God suddenly evolving a new plan or changing something in order to react to the will of men.

Yes, God does have a plan, however, that means nothing other than God has a plan. God's plan is to redeem humanity and restore the world, that is the theme of scripture from Genesis 1 (technically 4, since the fall happens in 3) to Revelation 22, and it is up to us whether or not we want to be apart of his plan. A plan does not imply predestination.

God is sovereign.

God is the Creator and Ruler of the universe. He exerts not merely a general influence, but actually rules in the world in which He has created. All things without exception are disposed by Him, and His will is the ultimate account of all that occurs. He permits all that He wills, including the actions of men, so that what He has ordained will come to pass. Individual personalities and second causes are fully recognized, not as independent of God, but as having their proper place in His plan.

The tendency is to set aside God's sovereignty in order to make room for the autocracy of the human will. The pride and presumption of man, on the one hand, and his ignorance and depravity on the other, lead him to exclude God and to exalt himself instead. God is the ultimate source of all power that is found in His creation. God has lost none of His power over creation, and it is highly dishonoring to Him to suppose that He struggles against the wills of men to attempt to accomplish His purposes.

God is sovereign, but that does not mean humanity has no free will. Kings are sovereign over countries, but their citizens have free will. The sovereignty if God is not at opposition to the free will of mankind.

Nature of men.

From birth men are under the curse of sin brought about through the bloodline of Adam. Because men are cursed they are actuated by wrong principles, doing no good for the glory of God, and completely incapable of loving God or doing anything that could bring about the removal of the curse. Additionally he may have intellectual knowledge of the facts and doctrines of the Bible yet he lacks the spiritual discernment of the excellence of the Scriptures and ability to understand them. Cursed men are unable to perform any spiritual actions, only actions befitting of their nature. This man is a captive, a willing slave to sin, and entirely unable to deliver himself from its bondage nor would he care to until he is made willing.

If mankind is completely and truly fallen and completely incapable of good, then he can't be faulted for his sins. It's one thing to say that human nature is fallen and mankind is predisposed to sin and is born into sin, which is Augustinian Origian Sin, it's another thing to say that mankind is so fallen he cannot possibly do any kind of good. Furthermore, while scripture does mention original sin, there's nowhere that indicates complete depravity.

Many are chosen, but not all.

The essence of the Bible, or underlining story, is the redemption of sinners. Since we know that God is sovereign in all things and men are unable to save themselves, it is safe to say that it is God who saves men and He is sovereign in choosing who is redeemed. Our salvation flows from the fountain of God's mercy and He adopts us, not all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but rather He surely gives to some what He definitely refuses to others. The Divine will never made dependent on the creatures will for its determinations, all who are and will be His are rightfully so by His plan alone. By His decree he has determined some to everlasting life out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, according to His will. The rest are passed by to be left in their natural state to the praise of His glorious justice, all for His glory.
Since God has chosen some and not others to eternal life, it is plain to see whom the primary purpose of Christ's work was intended for. Not all men, but His Elect.

From God himself, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." This is also not mention the notion of election completely takes away any need for evangelism, as no amount of our own influence will matter since God has already chosen who will and who will not be saved, or really even life a Christian life at all. Now Jesus does mention dying for his friends, but he also mentions that if we follow his commandment, we will be called friends, and it does mention the elect, which are those inside the covenant, however, all are welcomed to it.

Effective and permanent change.

In regards only to those whom God has elected to salvation by His saving grace there is a total and permanent change that occurs in them. At an appointed time predetermined by the His sovereign will, His spirit comes upon a man's heart convincing him of his current state of sin and misery, enlightening his mind in the knowledge of Christ and beginning the work of salvation. This cursed man, being altered and changed by the working of the Holy Spirit, is enabled to answer to call to salvation and embrace the grace freely offered. And if God has chosen these men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit has effectively applied the benefit of redemption, the conclusion is that the persons shall not be lost, ever. The whole course of the salvation of men is divinely planned and divinely guided, not thwarted or altered by the will of men. This is Calvinism in a nutshell, explained to the best of my understanding.

Scripture talks about salvation (not conversion) as a lifelong process, not a one-time event, which is why scripture gives us many warnings about falling away and staying in the faith.

 

[EmSw]

God never had to change. Men thought wrong

So tulipbee, did God predestine you to be a lost sinner, a child of wrath, and slave to the devil?