Calvinism, explained.

[Job8]

Fallacy #1

No man can will anything to happen.

Adam wilfully disobeyed God. End of story.

Fallacy #2

If the Lord wills it to be, it shall be.

The Lord is not willing that ANY should perish. Yet many will perish. End of story.

Promoting fallacies does NOT bring glory to God.

 

[sdowney717]

Please tell me who our Sovereign God did not foreknow? Marvin says He has always known everything. Do you believe there are those who God did not foreknow?

The ones Jesus Christ said to in this way, depart from ME all you workers of iniquity, I never knew you.

Since Romans 8 there is speaking of those who do obtain salvation, not of those who don't.

 

[EmSw]

The ones Jesus Christ said to in this way, depart from ME all you workers of iniquity, I never knew you.

Since Romans 8 there is speaking of those who do obtain salvation, not of those who don't.

What did Jesus mean when He said I never knew you? Is it not those who work iniquity?

Or, was it that Jesus was not omniscient?

Here is Strong's definition for 'knew' in Matthew 7:23 -

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
   1. to become known
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
   1. to understand
   2. to know
3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4. to become acquainted with, to know
   

Which one of these do you believe Jesus said in 'I never knew you'? Remember, whatever you choose, it has to be the same definition you should use for 'foreknew'.

 

[GillDouglas]

Fallacy #1
Adam wilfully disobeyed God. End of story.

Fallacy #2
The Lord is not willing that ANY should perish. Yet many will perish. End of story.

Promoting fallacies does NOT bring glory to God.

Would Adam (or any man) had been able to disobey God if God had not given Him the power to do so? Or does God have zero say whatsoever in what transpires? You may keep your delusions my friend, I'll have no part of it.

It's hard to grasp that you believe we live in a chaotic world moving forward utterly out of control, events having no rhyme or reason for happening, being ruled only by chance and luck in the decisions of men. It just blows my mind that you refuse to see the guiding hand of God in all things. You are blind by your love of man being the ruler of his own destiny.

You say that I'm the one who does not bring glory to God when you promote such rubbish about the nature of God and men.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Alright – I don’t know if this will do any good since everyone is so polarized on these things. But I’d like to just lay out a few examples from the scriptures to see how the opposite side sees the meaning of “predestination”.

I – and every Calvinist – would say that the following situations were “predestined” to happen just exactly as they happened. Those on the “other side” would say that they were not.

These examples were chosen because they all contain elements of grievous sins and rejection of Christ and as well as redemption.

The first example is all that happened with Adam and Eve leading up to the fall. The second example is the conversion and salvation of the Apostle Paul. The third example is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

I chose these not only because they are Biblical examples – but because we have a lot of data to go by as well.

If I chose some other rather obscure examples – like the suicide of my father, or my own or your conversion, 911, or even the founding of this nation – all of which I believe were predestined to happen - we would get off into the weeds and speculation pretty quickly.

Tell me how you envision God’s activities in all three examples (or just one as you chose) – “if“ they were indeed “predestined” to happen just as Calvinists say.

Tell me how what you envision God doing if they were predestined to happen is different from what we see God actually doing in the scriptures vis-a-vis bringing what He predestined to pass.

I’d just like to see how people see and express what predestination must include in these examples and why it’s so offensive to them.

If no takers are forthcoming – I will drop out of the conversation.

<staff edit>

 

[Aldebaran]

Would Adam (or any man) had been able to disobey God if God had not given Him the power to do so? Or does God have zero say whatsoever in what transpires? You may keep your delusions my friend, I'll have no part of it.

He doesn't have zero say. God made a choice to give us free will. So His "say" was to allow Adam to choose what to do.

 

[Job8]

You may keep your delusions my friend, I'll have no part of it.

There is no delusion in rightly dividing the Word of Truth (apart from the doctrines of men). The Bible is very clear that Adam chose to disobey God, contrary to what you stated.

It's hard to grasp that you believe we live in a chaotic world moving forward utterly out of control, events having no rhyme or reason for happening, being ruled only by chance and luck in the decisions of men. It just blows my mind that you refuse to see the guiding hand of God in all things. You are blind by your love of man being the ruler of his own destiny.

I have never ever said that chance and luck control events. The truth of the matter is that within the plans and purposes of God, ALLOWANCE HAS BEEN MADE for human beings to make either rational or irrational choices, righteous or unrighteous choices, good or evil decisions. Ultimately God has left men to rule their own destinies.

But God has also provided that the Gospel be preached to every creature, and that sinners must either obey the Gospel or suffer the consequences of disobeying and disregarding the Gospel.

ALL MEN EVERYWHERE COMMANDED TO REPENT
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30,31).

Christians (the Church on earth) has been given a mandate to bring this command to the attention of all men. But obedience to this command will not be coerced. Sinners will either repent and be saved, or remain unrepentant and be lost.

 

[Aldebaran]

All I know is when I read things like, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." (Revelation 3:20), it sure sounds like we have a choice.

 

[Patmos]

Alright – I don’t know if this will do any good since everyone is so polarized on these things. But I’d like to just lay out a few examples from the scriptures to see how the opposite side sees the meaning of “predestination”.

May I suggest seeing my predestination thread in GT. It has been quite lively.

I – and every Calvinist – would say that the following situations were “predestined” to happen just exactly as they happened. Those on the “other side” would say that they were not.

Wrong on "every Calvinist" and wrong on "the other side"
If you are a Suprlapsarian Calvinist you would not flinch from the ideas that God was the author of sin and pre planned Adam's sin. Hyper Calvinists are alt least consistent on this.

The first example is all that happened with Adam and Eve leading up to the fall.

Partly covered above. Double predestinarians have a completely different interpretation/understanding than single predestinarians.

Tell me how you envision God’s activities in all three examples (or just one as you chose) – “if“ they were indeed “predestined” to happen just as Calvinists say.

I will go with these events predestined to happen. But I would NOT extrapolate that every other thing in the world is predestined as well. My bottom line is that we are responsible for our own sin. Not God predestining us to sin. This is where I part company with Calvinism.

If, as Sproul reminds us, every movement of every electron is predestined then the whole this IS a pre arranged puppet show. By not predestining every electron's movement does NOT mean that God cannot predestine SOME events as he sees fit.

As an example, a poster on this thread keeps dropping in with sarcastic one liner's. Is he doing this of his own choice or did God predestine him to do it from before the foundation of the world ?

If God did predestine this, I don't see any glory. Do you ?

I’d just like to see how people see and express what predestination must include in these examples and why it’s so offensive to them.

I can only say you are making a mistake. The offence is taken from the conclusion that if God predestines ALL things the he is responsible for man's sin, not man.

If no takers are forthcoming – I will drop out of the conversation.

May I invite you to the Predestination thread in GT. Lots more views from many other Christian fraternities.

I'm really enjoying his silliness and I don't want to spoil it.

Attacking the poster ?

 

[Patmos]

All I know is when I read things like, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." (Revelation 3:20), it sure sounds like we have a choice.

This is what the Bible actually says.

 

[Marvin Knox]

This is what the Bible actually says.

For the record that passage is addressed to a lukewarm church and not to people being evangelized.

The Lord says that those that He loves He reproves in order that they will repent of their lukewarmness.

He may well knock in some way on the door of everyone hearing the gospel.

But this is not the passage to address that controversy.

 

[sdowney717]

All I know is when I read things like, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." (Revelation 3:20), it sure sounds like we have a choice.

Even if you include those outside this church, Jesus says if anyone 'hears my voice'.
Not all hear God.

As Jesus said, John 8:47
He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

So there must be the hearing to be enabled to open the door.
The action is not first on the man, but on the God as regarding the ability to have the hearing. Only those of God hear God's words, which means they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and so then have the spiritual ears to hear with understanding.

Otherwise to the natural man such matters are just foolishness.

 

[tulipbee]

He doesn't have zero say. God made a choice to give us free will. So His "say" was to allow Adam to choose what to do.

If there isn't a maverick molecule running loose, what does a free will molecule look like? What happens when a free will earth decides to leave it's orbit from the sun?

In other words you orbit around God and not free from him. You can't hide. You can't reject. You can't accept. You can't be free by yourself. God does what he wants to do about you

 

[sdowney717]

All people are under sentence of death due to sin, the soul that sins shall die.
It remains then for God to show mercy and compassion.
The effort of unregenerate man is accounted as nothing in heaven because God knows their end is destruction.
They weary and labor themselves only for the fire, and this is of the Lord.
Habakkuk 2:13
Behold, is it not of the Lord of hosts That the peoples labor to feed the fire, And nations weary themselves in vain?

Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Isaiah 40:15
Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket, And are counted as the small dust on the scales; Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

Psalm 1
4 The ungodly are not so,
But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psalm 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Messiah’s Triumph and Kingdom
1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”

 

[Aldebaran]

For the record that passage is addressed to a lukewarm church and not to people being evangelized.

The Lord says that those that He loves He reproves in order that they will repent of their lukewarmness.

He may well knock in some way on the door of everyone hearing the gospel.

But this is not the passage to address that controversy.

That's ok, because the bible is full of examples that can be given. Let's take a popular one: "Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28). If we have to go to Him, then it's obviously something we have to do for Him to give us rest. He doesn't say, "I'll choose you, and then will give you rest".

 

[Patmos]

For the record that passage is addressed to a lukewarm church and not to people being evangelized.

The Lord says that those that He loves He reproves in order that they will repent of their lukewarmness.

He may well knock in some way on the door of everyone hearing the gospel.

But this is not the passage to address that controversy.

No but still for everyone -
Luke 11:9-10

"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

Matthew 7:8
Verse Concepts

"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

 

[Aldebaran]

"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

To this, the Calvanist would probably say that we can't ask unless God MAKES us ask. This, of course, would beg the question of why Christ would tell us to ask for something if He Himself is in charge of whether or not we ask.

 

[Patmos]

To this, the Calvanist would probably say that we can't ask unless God MAKES us ask. This, of course, would beg the question of why Christ would tell us to ask for something if He Himself is in charge of whether or not we ask.

My guess is not probably.

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT ON

Please discuss the topic and not each other.

Do not use derogatory labels for Calvinists or anyone else.

If your posts are missing it's for these reasons.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Patmos]

Nearly all Modern scholars insist that while John Calvin and his followers (Beza, Bucer, Knox, etc.) affirm the doctrine of double predestination,....

....Double predestination affirms both God's election and His reprobation of certain men in eternity past. That is, God decreed that some would be saved, and others would be lost.

Calvinist theologian Louis Berkhof defines reprobation as:
"That eternal decree of God whereby He has determined to pass some men by with the operations of His special grace, and to punish them for their sins, to the manifestation of His justice."

Note - This is NOT MY OPINION. This is CALVINISM. Quoated from a CALVINIST web site
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/double_luther.html

Note: The determination to punish anyone for his sin is NOT an issues at all. What is an issue is the Calvinist doctrine that God creates men totally depraved, total unable to know God or to repent or to have any remorse or whatever for his sin.

Many Calvinist texts say just this ( Dort, Calvin, Sproul, WCF, Piper.....). This IS the issue as can be seen in just about every thread in Soteriology ad infinitum. It was a BIG issue in Calvin's day. It was a BIG issue in Agustine's day - HISTORICAL FACT.

I keep being told what my opinion is and what I am told is totally FALSE.
For the record - IMO, many of those who call themselves Calvinist, do not understand Calvinism.Many more do not WANT to understand real Calvinism. Hence threads like this one.