Calvinism, explained.

[Patmos]

THEN YOU STOP TELLING US WHETHER WE CAN CALL OURSELVES CALVINISTS OR NOT! YOU ARE THE LEAST QUALIFIED TO BE DOING SO, SO PACK IT IN YOURSELF!!!!

I have not, in any post, told anyone what they can call themselves!!! Astonishing

 

[Patmos]

Well everyone, I'm bidding you all farwell.

Be blessed and spread the gospel.

Me too. Circular debate going nowhere.

Good luck to all of you.

 

[nobdysfool]

Repeated for CIG. Hi-lights mine.

TD definition "Total, meaning that the totality of man, his whole being, is affected by sin".


"a nature which manifests itself at the earliest opportunity"
Surely the evidence of human history bares this out to be 100% correct!

Thanks Patmos, at least I got something that you agree with....it's a start...

 

[GillDouglas]

Strawman, of course. I never claimed God is sovereign in the sense that you mean that He is. And you are clearly being unfair debate when you speculate about what my, or anyone else's, "desire" is.


This is an easy claim to make but I suspect that if you try to actually make a Biblical argument that our fallenness - which I acknowledge - robs us of all self-determining freedom, you will not succeed.

A fish inheritantly knows it cannot live on land. God given instinct. It doesn't need to be self determined, it just knows better.

We recognize that we are not authorized to deal with areas concerning men's salvation. A man cannot change His nature to seek God, that's His doing. A man cannot save himself, that's His doing. A man can no more become pregnant than make himself sinless, righteous and eternal.

 

[Patmos]

Thanks Patmos, at least I got something that you agree with....it's a start...

 

[expos4ever]

A fish inheritantly knows it cannot live on land. God given instinct. It doesn't need to be self determined, it just knows better.

Indeed, but are we fish? Certainly not.

We recognize that we are not authorized to deal with areas concerning men's salvation. A man cannot change His nature to seek God, that's His doing. A man cannot save himself, that's His Doug. A man can no more become pregnant than make himself sinless, righteous and eternal.

These are effectively re-statements of your position with no specific Biblical support given.

 

[GillDouglas]

Indeed, but are we fish? Certainly not.


These are effectively re-statements of your position with no specific Biblical support given.

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?” (Daniel 4:35)

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. (Proverbs 16:4)

 

[expos4ever]

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?” (Daniel 4:35)

Well, yes, He does according to His will. But you appear to assume that He has a will with respect each and every detail of the Universe. You need to substantiate that assumption.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)

Again, all this text says is that a necessary pre-condition for coming to Jesus is that the Father draws a person. I am not sure how this supports your position. I certainly accept the truth of this statement, but it does nothing to undermine the view that we have a measure of self-determining free will.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Again, how does this refute a measure of self-determining free will?

The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. (Proverbs 16:4)

Again, how does this refute a measure of self-determining free will? I am not denying that God has a will; I am affirming that we have a measure of free will ourselves.

 

[GillDouglas]

Well, yes, He does according to His will. But you appear to assume that He has a will with respect each and every detail of the Universe. You need to substantiate that assumption.

God is Author of this grand 'Story' of Creation. He wrote the scene, the lines, the acts, etc. We all play our part according to His design. What we think we are doing freely is exactly in accordance with the Story.

Again, all this text says is that a necessary pre-condition for coming to Jesus is that the Father draws a person. I am not sure how this supports your position. I certainly accept the truth of this statement, but it does nothing to undermine the view that we have a measure of self-determining free will.

God reveals the Truth and the irresistible means of salvation to the individual man of His choice. There is no denying the Truth or means of salvation. If they could, who would reject such a gift?

Again, how does this refute a measure of self-determining free will?

A man can only act within the confines of his nature. The natural man is worldy and riddled with sin. Until the Spirit descends upon that man, he can only do acts in regards to a sinful and fallen nature.

Again, how does this refute a measure of self-determining free will? I am not denying that God has a will; I am affirming that we have a measure of free will ourselves.

Again I refer to this understanding that God not only created but He is also fully in control. Chance and Luck do not rule this world, and we also have no authority over any aspect of this life. God is in control of everything!! There is not one thing that is out of His hands.

 

[expos4ever]

God is Author of this grand 'Story' of Creation. He wrote the scene, the lines, the acts, etc. We all play our part according to His design. What we think we are doing freely is exactly in accordance with the Story.

You are clearly begging the question - assuming the very thing you need to make a Biblical case for: that the extent of God's "control" is exhaustive - that there are no "free variables" such as the willful acts of human beings.

 

[nobdysfool]

=expos4ever]Again, how does this refute a measure of self-determining free will? I am not denying that God has a will; I am affirming that we have a measure of free will ourselves.

Only within the parameters and confines that God has established. No one has a will that is exempt or beyond God's control. Within the parameters He has established, you are free to choose as you wish, but no matter your choice, the outcome is foreknown, and it will redound to His fore-ordained end.

 

[Patmos]

... I'll let the real Calvinists who read Calvin explain it.

I have left this thread, sorry.

 

[sdowney717]

All things are of God.
All things exist for God

2 Corinthians 5:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

Romans 11:36New King James Version (NKJV)
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Their is nothing that exists that exists unless God made it to exist, that includes all things that are the way they are.

Revelation 4:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”

So does that leave anything out of all creation, anything whatsoever?
He has even included all people under sinfulness, that God might have mercy on all, that would be any He chooses to be merciful towards.
It is only due to His mercy that we are not consumed in eternal fire.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

 

[Patmos]

AYE

 

[Patmos]

Deleted as posted in wrong thread.
Excuse me.

 

[sdowney717]

Galatians 3:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3:9
[ All Have Sinned ] What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

The promises of God are given not to those that work, but by their faith, they inherit God's promises.
Christ has done the work for His own name's sake, for His own glory, according to the word of The LORD, it is finished.

Acts 26:17-18New King James Version (NKJV)
17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

It is your faith that is a sign of your sanctification, and that ordained of God, not of your works lest any flesh could boast to God.

 

[expos4ever]

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

All true, but this text in no way demonstrates that God exercises exhaustive control over all events in the Universe. At most, this text shows that what God wants to do, He will in fact do. But it does not justify concluding that He controls everything.

 

[nobdysfool]

If God does not control things, who does?

 

[ToBeLoved]

If God does not control things, who does?

How much control is needed to keep the earth running? Maybe He controls those who have given their lives to Him.

 

[GillDouglas]

How much control is needed to keep the earth running? Maybe He controls those who have given their lives to Him.

Maybe God only created some things and that would mean He has no authority over that in which He did not create? Except there is nothing He didn't create and therefore does have the authority over all things.