Calvinism, explained.

[sdowney717]

More accurately, in practice, it was a Pelagian church, which most are by default. They would never accept that table, but the theology from pastor to pew was just that.



It's the American evangelical church. When your starting point is that man, in his sinful state, can be reasoned into the Kingdom, you must send the troops out and get as many "in the boat" as possible. There is no need to catechize, as Christianity has been reduced to the "sinner's prayer".

Years ago I used to go to a church where the pastor wanted to bring the world into the church, so that he and others could preach them into the kingdom by teaching them.
Personally I think the church goes out into the world to make disciples, but the world should never come into the church. The church is made of the saved saints, not a worldly cacophonous rabble of rebels.

 

[Patmos]

Anyone know which Reformer wrote this:

'In this fallen state, the freewill of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent; and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace; but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said: "Without me ye can do nothing".'

Hint - not a Pelegian.

thatbrian, what Reformer do you think wrote this ?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Years ago I used to go to a church where the pastor wanted to bring the world into the church, so that he and others could preach them into the kingdom by teaching them.
Personally I think the church goes out into the world to make disciples, but the world should never come into the church. The church is made of the saved saints, not a worldly cacophonous rabble of rebels.

I was a new Christian in the early 80s, before the paradigm shift. Now, the average evangelical church, and I've been to approx 100, is not much different than a circus. It's an entertainment-driven club, that promises "fun" for the whole family.

 

[Patmos]

Anyone know which Reformer wrote this:

'In this fallen state, the freewill of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent; and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace; but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said: "Without me ye can do nothing".'

Hint - not a Pelegian.

thatbrian, what Reformer do you think wrote this ?

Crickets

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Crickets

Fairly accurate statement if not for, "assisted by grace".

I God were only to assists us, He would only be due part of the glory. The rest would belong to us.

 

[Patmos]

The rest would belong to no us.

Are you an ambassador for Christ ? Surely then you should give thought to everything you do. In particular what you post on a public forum.

From someone looking in, seeing cryptic comments, non answers and slurs (e.g I’m glad I was saved from Jacob Arminus) – what would they make of your church ? A gathering of the like-minded and self-righteous? Hardly a good advert.

 

[Patmos]

Anyone know which Reformer wrote this:

'In this fallen state, the freewill of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent; and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace; but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said: "Without me ye can do nothing".'

thatbrian, have you looked it up ? Bit of a shock huh.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Anyone know which Reformer wrote this:

'In this fallen state, the freewill of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent; and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace; but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said: "Without me ye can do nothing".'

Hint - not a Pelegian.

thatbrian, what Reformer do you think wrote this ?

Jacob Arminus of course.

Restated in various words by Marvin Knox in this forum at least a dozen times.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Years ago I used to go to a church where the pastor wanted to bring the world into the church, so that he and others could preach them into the kingdom by teaching them.
Personally I think the church goes out into the world to make disciples, but the world should never come into the church. The church is made of the saved saints, not a worldly cacophonous rabble of rebels.

But Mr. Downey - aren't we supposed to be seeker friendly churches?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Was Jacob Arminus chosen (in your view)?

Approaching 80 years old as I am - I'll find out fairly shortly.

I'll try to get back with the answer for us. I doubt that I'll have much luck though.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Are you an ambassador for Christ ? Surely then you should give thought to everything you do. In particular what you post on a public forum.

From someone looking in, seeing cryptic comments, non answers and slurs (e.g I’m glad I was saved from Jacob Arminus) – what would they make of your church ? A gathering of the like-minded and self-righteous? Hardly a good advert.

What are you even talking about?

You do realize that you've condemned yourself within your very own post, do you not? Quite humorous.

 

[sdowney717]

But Mr. Downey - aren't we supposed to be seeker friendly churches?

He sought me and He found me! One of the lost sheep.
Thank God He came for me to save and also for you.
Let us also be as bold as Isaiah about our being found who did not seek for God.
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”[m]

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But Mr. Downey - aren't we supposed to be seeker friendly churches?

I love what RC Sproul says about this: "Sinners are searching for God like criminals are searching for a cop".

 

[EmSw]

Years ago I used to go to a church where the pastor wanted to bring the world into the church, so that he and others could preach them into the kingdom by teaching them.
Personally I think the church goes out into the world to make disciples, but the world should never come into the church. The church is made of the saved saints, not a worldly cacophonous rabble of rebels.

Jesus told us differently. Jesus not only told those who were originally called, but He also called the poor, maimed, halt, and blind to come in.

Luke 14
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

We find those who were originally bidden started making excuses to not come, and Jesus said none of those will taste His supper; these are they who do not willingly answer the call and start to make excuses.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus told us differently. Jesus not only told those who were originally called, but He also called the poor, maimed, halt, and blind to come in.

Luke 14
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

We find those who were originally bidden started making excuses to not come, and Jesus said none of those will taste His supper; these are they who do not willingly answer the call and start to make excuses.

Those who refused were the Jews in large part. only an elect few believed in Christ. The gentile nations are filling up the Lord's house for now, until the number of the gentiles is complete in the kingdom, then Israel is saved at the end of the end of days.

 

[EmSw]

Those who refused were the Jews in large part. only an elect few believed in Christ. The gentile nations are filling up the Lord's house for now, until the number of the gentiles is complete in the kingdom, then Israel is saved at the end of the end of days.

You are talking about God's chosen, aren't you?

Deuteronomy 10:15
Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

How was it that God's chosen were rejected by Jesus?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Those who refused were the Jews in large part. only an elect few believed in Christ. The gentile nations are filling up the Lord's house for now, until the number of the gentiles is complete in the kingdom, then Israel is saved at the end of the end of days.

It had to be mostly the Jews because they were the ones who were given the Old Testament which prophesized of the Christ.

 

[Patmos]

Approaching 80 years old as I am - I'll find out fairly shortly.

I'll try to get back with the answer for us. I doubt that I'll have much luck though.

Ok, though it was a question for thatbian who's said he was glad he 'was saved from Jacob Arminus'!

 

[Patmos]

What are you even talking about?

You do realize that you've condemned yourself within your very own post, do you not? Quite humorous.

Referring to your previous ambiguous posts, when asked for clarification you evade and dodge.

I'm reminded of an article - "the number of Americans listing their religious preference as “None” has shot up" - by a Reformed Pastor Tim Keller (hi-lights mine).

http://www.redeemer.com/redeemer-report/article/backlash_and_civility

".....Civility, however, has to do with how you contend, and it is an expression of caritas—charity or Christian love. It is not a refusal to criticize. Indeed, uncharitable discourse makes no attempt to really persuade the opposition. Uncivil discourse merely castigates and caricatures the other side. It doesn’t try to win over the opposition with the truth, but only to marginalize and disempower them.

Uncivil speech is designed to intimidate, silence, and stir up opposition. It does not aim to persuade more people to believe it. Ironically, when Christians speak this way, it shows no confidence in the Truth at all, but only in power, and that is a very secular view of the world. As someone has famously (but anonymously) said, “Evangelicals are in danger of selling their gospel birthright for a mess of political pottage."
............

Second, it shows humility as you argue. That means a lack of eye-rolling, sighing, sneering, and pejorative vocabulary. condemned, humorous!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Referring to your previous ambiguous posts, when asked for clarification you evade and dodge.

I'm reminded of an article - "the number of Americans listing their religious preference as “None” has shot up" - by a Reformed Pastor Tim Keller (hi-lights mine).

http://www.redeemer.com/redeemer-report/article/backlash_and_civility

".....Civility, however, has to do with how you contend, and it is an expression of caritas—charity or Christian love. It is not a refusal to criticize. Indeed, uncharitable discourse makes no attempt to really persuade the opposition. Uncivil discourse merely castigates and caricatures the other side. It doesn’t try to win over the opposition with the truth, but only to marginalize and disempower them.

Uncivil speech is designed to intimidate, silence, and stir up opposition. It does not aim to persuade more people to believe it. Ironically, when Christians speak this way, it shows no confidence in the Truth at all, but only in power, and that is a very secular view of the world. As someone has famously (but anonymously) said, “Evangelicals are in danger of selling their gospel birthright for a mess of political pottage."
............

Second, it shows humility as you argue. That means a lack of eye-rolling, sighing, sneering, and pejorative vocabulary. condemned, humorous!

So, let me get this straight, because you think that my posts were evasive and dodging (I don't think they were), you call me a poor ambassador of Christ's, and then proceed to school me on civility? Does that make sense to you? Does that seem just to you? Does that not seem over the top to you? Can you not see even the slightest hypocrisy in your words?