Calvinism, explained.

[tulipbee]

Your presence on this thread is of no benefit if you can't have any meaningful discussion with anyone.

Trolling has no advantage to the elders

 

[tulipbee]

Clothed, I've seen all kinds of types. I will never dislike any person. It's their belief which gets my attention.

I know his attitude is not the norm for Calvinists.

You're reading false anticalvinism books.
Go burn them for God's sake!

 

[EmSw]

You're reading false anticalvinism books.
Go burn them for God's sake!

I gave you Romans 1 from the Bible; is this the false anti-Calvinist book to which you are referring?

 

[Aldebaran]

I gave you Romans 1 from the Bible; is this the false anti-Calvinist book to which you are referring?

It's probably time to stop reading what this person says and start adding him to our ignore lists. He's already close to being reported for some of his responses, so he may very well end up getting a little vacation from the forum.

 

[David4223]

MOD HAT ON

Alright everyone.

If we cannot treat each other with respect and civility, please do not respond in this thread.

Treat everyone as you would like to be spoken to. Treat everyone with respect and courtesy.

Further violations of the flaming rule will result in bans.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[tulipbee]

I gave you Romans 1 from the Bible; is this the false anti-Calvinist book to which you are referring?

It's in the essence in your whole being.

God does the saving, not man, period

 

[ToBeLoved]

It's in the essence in your whole being.

God does the saving, not man, period

Both Arminian and Calvinists agree on that. Let's not go making up that all do not think that God gives salvation.

 

[Patmos]

"Both Arminian and Calvinists agree on that. Let's not go making up that all do not think that God gives salvation."

Amen.

Since being here for a short time, a poster in the Baptist forum repeatedly posts "Arminians believe..." followed by a lot of stuff they do NOT believe. And yes, I have seen the reverse situation as well.

I just wish 'opposing' sides would stop talking past each other as there is loads that Calvinists and Arminians do infact agree on.

 

[Aldebaran]

"Both Arminian and Calvinists agree on that. Let's not go making up that all do not think that God gives salvation."

Amen.

Since being here for a short time, a poster in the Baptist forum repeatedly posts "Arminians believe..." followed by a lot of stuff they do NOT believe. And yes, I have seen the reverse situation as well.

I just wish 'opposing' sides would stop talking past each other as there is loads that Calvinists and Arminians do infact agree on.

On top of that, we should really understand that we aren't supposed to be on opposing sides. John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius are 2 different people that some have decided to attach their names to in order to identify with them, and it really does divert our attention away from who it is we really follow. The apostle Paul spoke specifically about why this should not be so. This is from 1 Corinthians 1:10-13:
10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. quarreling among you, my brothers. each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The quarreling Paul warned us about is exactly what is going on in this thread. So lets not be "of Calvin" or "of Arminius". Let's be of Christ, ok?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

On top of that, we should really understand that we aren't supposed to be on opposing sides. John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius are 2 different people that some have decided to attach their names to in order to identify with them, and it really does divert our attention away from who it is we really follow. The apostle Paul spoke specifically about why this should not be so. This is from 1 Corinthians 1:10-13:
10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. quarreling among you, my brothers. each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The quarreling Paul warned us about is exactly what is going on in this thread. So lets not be "of Calvin" or "of Arminius". Let's be of Christ, ok?

I knew this passage would eventually be brought up; that passage is speaking about following after men and their teachings as opposed to Christ and His teachings. I'm not a man who follows or even reads Calvin, so I would not say "I follow Calvin." Calvinism is only a name given to the doctrine I believe the Bible teaches. The truth is that we disagree about what the Bible teaches, but that doesn't necessarily mean we are divided in Christ. If you all would rather not discuss these things then simply say so.

 

[Aldebaran]

I knew this passage would eventually be brought up; that passage is speaking about following after men and their teachings as opposed to Christ and His teachings. I'm not a man who follows or even reads Calvin, so I would not say "I follow Calvin." Calvinism is only a name given to the doctrine I believe the Bible teaches. The truth is that we disagree about what the Bible teaches, but that doesn't necessarily mean we are divided in Christ. If you all would rather not discuss these things then simply say so.

Perhaps not specifically. But calling ourselves Calvanist, Arminian, or even denominational names does go along the same lines as what Paul was saying, and it does divide us.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Perhaps not specifically. But calling ourselves Calvanist, Arminian, or even denominational names does go along the same lines as what Paul was saying, and it does divide us.

I'm a Christian first: a Calvinist second. I would only bring up my Calvinism if someone were to ask me about it or if we were discussing theology.

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm a Christian first: a Calvinist second. I would only bring up my Calvinism if someone were to ask me about it or if we were discussing theology.

I'm sure the people Paul was writing to also considered themselves to be Christian first, but then they went into divisions about which apostle they subscribed to. That's where divisions within Christianity come in. That's where the quarrels (like the one going on in this thread) come from. It's really no different when people say, "I'm Lutheran, Catholic, pentecostal, seventh day adventist, Catholic, baptist, etc". They say they're Christian first, but then the divisions happen from that point. You said Paul was warning against following after men and their teachings as opposed to Christ and His teachings, but what did Arminius teach? What did Calvin teach? What did Luther teach? When we label ourselves with their names, it's because we are following them and their teachings.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I'm sure the people Paul was writing to also considered themselves to be Christian first, but then they went into divisions about which apostle they subscribed to. That's where divisions within Christianity come in. That's where the quarrels (like the one going on in this thread) come from. It's really no different when people say, "I'm Lutheran, Catholic, pentecostal, seventh day adventist, Catholic, baptist, etc". They say they're Christian first, but then the divisions happen from that point. You said Paul was warning against following after men and their teachings as opposed to Christ and His teachings, but what did Arminius teach? What did Calvin teach? What did Luther teach? When we label ourselves with their names, it's because we are following them and their teachings.

Okay, so what do you suggest I do? I believe what is commonly known as the five points of Calvinism; do you want me to just not call myself a Calvinist? Would that solve this issue?

 

[Aldebaran]

Okay, so what do you suggest I do? I believe what is commonly known as the five points of Calvinism; do you want me to just not call myself a Calvinist? Would that solve this issue?

I'm just trying to point out that the labels we give ourselves based on teachers is something Paul has told us not to do. I'll leave it up to each person to decide what to do based on that. But it seems that we need to be reminded of such thing from time to time.

 

[EmSw]

Clothed, have you had time to read and think about the scenario I presented? Here it is again.

I will use you as the father, and your children as your creation.

Did (do) you plan for your children to sin? Did you do this to display your justice, mercy, wrath, and grace? Did you predestine what would happen so that your children would follow your plan? One way to carry out your predestination is to drink, curse, be angry, have fights, beat your wife, beat your children, commit adultery, and lie in front of your children. Did you do this?

Another way, is to present your children with temptations in order to make them fall. You know, have booze open around the house, have harlots in the house, have bullies over, have porn on the TV, have someone murdered in your house, leave knives and guns laying around, expose them to all religions of the world, put candy in front of them and tell them not to eat any of it, and other such temptations.

All these things you predestine for your children to put your plan into action. And yes, when your children get drunk, curse, fight, watch porn, believe in another religion, eat the candy, and lie, you can come down on their heads for their sins. Yes sir, they are responsible, and you can get your justice, mercy, wrath, and grace on them. Doesn't that make you feel special your children acted the way you set out for them to do?

I will ask, did you, or would you do this to your children? If you did, I think the authorities need to be notified about your plan and behavior. Do you think the law would consider you just as guilty as your children, and maybe even set out to punish you for child abuse. If you say you wouldn't, then you are a better man than God; you have more love and respect for your children than God does for His. Congratulations. This is exactly what God does according to your views.

Any thoughts?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Clothed, have you had time to read and think about the scenario I presented? Here it is again.

I will use you as the father, and your children as your creation.

Did (do) you plan for your children to sin? Did you do this to display your justice, mercy, wrath, and grace? Did you predestine what would happen so that your children would follow your plan? One way to carry out your predestination is to drink, curse, be angry, have fights, beat your wife, beat your children, commit adultery, and lie in front of your children. Did you do this?

Another way, is to present your children with temptations in order to make them fall. You know, have booze open around the house, have harlots in the house, have bullies over, have porn on the TV, have someone murdered in your house, leave knives and guns laying around, expose them to all religions of the world, put candy in front of them and tell them not to eat any of it, and other such temptations.

All these things you predestine for your children to put your plan into action. And yes, when your children get drunk, curse, fight, watch porn, believe in another religion, eat the candy, and lie, you can come down on their heads for their sins. Yes sir, they are responsible, and you can get your justice, mercy, wrath, and grace on them. Doesn't that make you feel special your children acted the way you set out for them to do?

I will ask, did you, or would you do this to your children? If you did, I think the authorities need to be notified about your plan and behavior. Do you think the law would consider you just as guilty as your children, and maybe even set out to punish you for child abuse. If you say you wouldn't, then you are a better man than God; you have more love and respect for your children than God does for His. Congratulations. This is exactly what God does according to your views.

Any thoughts?

Of course I wouldn't do that to my child. But, there are two major problems with your scenario:
1. God doesn't tempt men as the father in your scenario does; men seek sin on their own.
2. Men are sinners who deserve death: they are not God's children. We must be made God's children through Jesus Christ.

 

[EmSw]

Of course I wouldn't do that to my child.

Congratulations! No one should even have the thought of doing that to their child. You have answered well.

But, there are two major problems with your scenario:
1. God doesn't tempt men as the father in your scenario does; men seek sin on their own.
2. Men are sinners who deserve death: they are not God's children. We must be made God's children through Jesus Christ.

1. According to Calvinism, God predestines the steps of man, and then plans the circumstances to carry them out. Is this not correct? If God carries out the circumstances from which man chooses, then God tempts man to sin with His plans and circumstances.

If God does not plan the circumstances by which man chooses, and you say God leaves man to himself, then we have a 'hit and run' by God. As Calvinism states, before eternity, God foreordains some men to hell. In order to carry this out, God leaves man to himself and his sin. So, we have the 'hit' (God's foreordination), and the 'run' (God leaving the scene and not offering help).

Either way you want it, you have God involved big time. His fingerprints are all over the place.

2. I see here, you either think God's creations are not His, or you think God created the devil's children. Since we all know the devil has no creation power, all creation is from God. Do you agree?

This also mocks Jesus when we read this in Mark 10:15, 'But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.'

I ask, if the kingdom of God is of little children, by what authority do men say they are not His children? Do men know the hearts of little children to condemn as children of the devil?

I see in Calvinist's haste to send people to either heaven or hell, they overlook the precious words of our Savior.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Perhaps not specifically. But calling ourselves Calvanist, Arminian, or even denominational names does go along the same lines as what Paul was saying, and it does divide us.

I don't know. I see where you are going with this train of thought, but what these things allow us not to 'divide' ourselves per se as we are all one in Christ Jesus, but I feel to understand each others beliefs.

I've run accross this before and really I don't think there could or will ever be one church until Christ because there are just too many people with differing beliefs. My take on it is if we were all together in one huge church, then when someone didn't like the doctrine they would just pull away from one big church or it would not allow certain people to express their beliefs or even choose.

So, I differ in that yes it is a wonderful concept, but executing something like this with mere mortal men and billions of Christians is not going to happen. The theory of it is great, but if I put 500 Christians together in a church, they would naturally divide based on beliefs anyway and it would NOT truly be one church but Christians that had to be together in one church that believe different things and there would be so much quarelling over beliefs that we would wish their were denominations again.

It's awesome in thought, but not so easy or maybe even desireable to Christ's church to execute.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

1. According to Calvinism, God predestines the steps of man, and then plans the circumstances to carry them out. Is this not correct? If God carries out the circumstances from which man chooses, then God tempts man to sin with His plans and circumstances.

If God does not plan the circumstances by which man chooses, and you say God leaves man to himself, then we have a 'hit and run' by God. As Calvinism states, before eternity, God foreordains some men to hell. In order to carry this out, God leaves man to himself and his sin. So, we have the 'hit' (God's foreordination), and the 'run' (God leaving the scene and not offering help).

Either way you want it, you have God involved big time. His fingerprints are all over the place.

The doctrine of predestination is really just a matter who you think is in control. Yes, God predestines all things, but that doesn't make Him responsible for what men of their own wills do.

Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Yes, God ordained what would happen and He created the world in such a way that what he purposed to happen would indeed happen. But again, He is not tempting men as the father in your scenario does.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

2. I see here, you either think God's creations are not His, or you think God created the devil's children. Since we all know the devil has no creation power, all creation is from God. Do you agree?

This also mocks Jesus when we read this in Mark 10:15, 'But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.'

I ask, if the kingdom of God is of little children, by what authority do men say they are not His children? Do men know the hearts of little children to condemn as children of the devil?

I see in Calvinist's haste to send people to either heaven or hell, they overlook the precious words of our Savior.

God's creations are His, everything is His, but God is not obligated to love those who are 'children of wrath' as Ephesians 2:3 says.

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Why would God have to adopt us as sons if we were already His children? Is it not because we are born into sin and are children of the devil?

John 8:44
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

With regards to the children, I have nowhere said that I have the power and wisdom to discern who the elect are. But, the point of Jesus' teaching was that we need to come into the kingdom like children: with a childlike faith and dependence on God. Jesus was not teaching that all children and people were His children, which is in contradiction to the verses I shared.