Calvinism, explained.

[ClothedInGrace]

I don't know. I see where you are going with this train of thought, but what these things allow us not to 'divide' ourselves per se as we are all one in Christ Jesus, but I feel to understand each others beliefs.

I've run accross this before and really I don't think there could or will ever be one church until Christ because there are just too many people with differing beliefs. My take on it is if we were all together in one huge church, then when someone didn't like the doctrine they would just pull away from one big church or it would not allow certain people to express their beliefs or even choose.

So, I differ in that yes it is a wonderful concept, but executing something like this with mere mortal men and billions of Christians is not going to happen. The theory of it is great, but if I put 500 Christians together in a church, they would naturally divide based on beliefs anyway and it would NOT truly be one church but Christians that had to be together in one church that believe different things and there would be so much quarelling over beliefs that we would wish their were denominations again.

It's awesome in thought, but not so easy or maybe even desireable to Christ's church to execute.

I agree. True unity will come when our Lord appears and we become like Him.

 

[EmSw]

The doctrine of predestination is really just a matter who you think is in control. Yes, God predestines all things, but that doesn't make Him responsible for what men of their own wills do.

Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

If man plans his way, why do Calvinists say God plans everything? Does God direct, that is, give instructions and guidance, to do good or to do evil? Is the reprobate exempt from God's guidance to do good?

Yes, God ordained what would happen and He created the world in such a way that what he purposed to happen would indeed happen. But again, He is not tempting men as the father in your scenario does.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

According to your belief, God brings about the circumstances by which His purposes are carried out. Here is the definition of circumstance according to the Free Dictionary -

A condition or fact attending an event and having some bearing on it;

If God created the world in such a way that what He purposes to happen would indeed happen, then that condition attending an event has some bearing on it. If God purposed temptation, then His purpose has some bearing on it. He would not be guiltless. Did God purpose temptation? If not, then we have something of which God is not in control. You can't have it both ways.

God's creations are His, everything is His, but God is not obligated to love those who are 'children of wrath' as Ephesians 2:3 says.

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Why would God have to adopt us as sons if we were already His children? Is it not because we are born into sin and are children of the devil?

John 8:44
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Who are the children of wrath? You have God making everyone a child of wrath at birth. In the passages you provided above, Jesus isn't talking to little children as you suppose; he is talking to grown men. How does a man become a child of the devil? Have you even thought about it?

Psalm 139:14
I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works, and that my soul knows very well.

Do you consider a person who is fearfully and wonderfully made by God a sinner? Do you call this marvelous? Does God create sinners? Is a person who is a child of wrath fearfully and wonderfully made? Let's see what makes a person a child of wrath.

Ephesians 5
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Did you notice why the wrath of God comes upon a person? It comes upon a fornicator, an unclean person, a covetous man, and idolater. Do you know a newborn who is any of these? Have you seen a newborn fornicate? Do yo know of a newborn who is covetous? We should contact Guiness, and have them put this in their book. Can you imagine the news headlines - BABY BOY BORN THIS MORNING CAUGHT FORNICATING WITH NURSE!!!

It is because of these things, that is, uncleanness, fornication, disobedience, covetous, idolatry, and other evils that the wrath of God comes upon a person. If you say it comes any other way, that is, born that way, then I have to assume you are trying to deceive me.

With regards to the children, I have nowhere said that I have the power and wisdom to discern who the elect are. But, the point of Jesus' teaching was that we need to come into the kingdom like children: with a childlike faith and dependence on God. Jesus was not teaching that all children and people were His children, which is in contradiction to the verses I shared.

I don't think the verses I gave say anything about grown men with childlike faith were the ones Jesus was referring to. Maybe I missed a verse or two. But I don't think grown men were being held back by His disciples.

Besides, if grown men are to be like children, and all children are of the devil, how does that confirm your beliefs? Even you admit above, children have childlike faith and dependence upon God. How do children of the devil have this faith and dependence on God? Are grown men to be like children of wrath?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

If man plans his way, why do Calvinists say God plans everything? Does God direct, that is, give instructions and guidance, to do good or to do evil? Is the reprobate exempt from God's guidance to do good?

Just because God has a plan to achieve His purpose doesn't mean that man can't make plans of his own.

Proverbs 19:21
Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the LORD will stand.

God does indeed direct and instruct us to do good, but man is most often spiritually dead in their sin. The reprobate are not exempt from God's commands however, and they are responsible for their sin.

According to your belief, God brings about the circumstances by which His purposes are carried out. Here is the definition of circumstance according to the Free Dictionary -

A condition or fact attending an event and having some bearing on it;

If God created the world in such a way that what He purposes to happen would indeed happen, then that condition attending an event has some bearing on it. If God purposed temptation, then His purpose has some bearing on it. He would not be guiltless. Did God purpose temptation? If not, then we have something of which God is not in control. You can't have it both ways.

You are right: God is either in control or He is not. However, just because God creates circumstances and allows sin for His purposes doesn't mean that He is responsible in the same way that a man is. When a man sins he is willing evil in his heart, and God hates evil, so he is worthy of death; when God purposes that a man should sin, He wills it for His good purpose, and He is not guilty of anything. You think my view of God is evil because I believe He is sovereign over everything, even the sins of men. Paul had people who said his view of God raising Pharaoh up only to destroy him was evil as well:

Romans 9:18-22
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

Do you consider a person who is fearfully and wonderfully made by God a sinner? Do you call this marvelous? Does God create sinners? Is a person who is a child of wrath fearfully and wonderfully made? Let's see what makes a person a child of wrath.

Just because God creates and fashions a body in the womb that does not mean the person is not born a child of wrath. Who's image are people born into? Are they born into Christ's image, or Adam's? Whose nature do we inherit?

Genesis 5:3
When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth

Was not Adam's image scarred with sin? Do people not begin to sin from the moment they are able to? Are children born seeking God, or ignoring Him?

Did you notice why the wrath of God comes upon a person? It comes upon a fornicator, an unclean person, a covetous man, and idolater. Do you know a newborn who is any of these? Have you seen a newborn fornicate? Do yo know of a newborn who is covetous? We should contact Guiness, and have them put this in their book. Can you imagine the news headlines - BABY BOY BORN THIS MORNING CAUGHT FORNICATING WITH NURSE!!!

It is because of these things, that is, uncleanness, fornication, disobedience, covetous, idolatry, and other evils that the wrath of God comes upon a person. If you say it comes any other way, that is, born that way, then I have to assume you are trying to deceive me.

If a baby had the knowledge and ability (like they get with age), then they would sin, just as every man since Adam (except Christ) has. Yes, the wrath of God comes upon a person for such things, but why do people do such things? Why does every child without fail (except Christ) become a sinner? Why don't they use their clean sinless slate to choose righteousness and seek God? Why didn't God save all the babies in Noah's flood? These are some serious questions you need to ask yourself.

Besides, if grown men are to be like children, and all children are of the devil, how does that confirm your beliefs? Even you admit above, children have childlike faith and dependence upon God. How do children of the devil have this faith and dependence on God? Are grown men to be like children of wrath?

Jesus saying we should become like children is very easily explained...

Matthew 18:4
"Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

It's about being humble; children are humble, not sinless!

 

[EmSw]

Just because God has a plan to achieve His purpose doesn't mean that man can't make plans of his own.

Proverbs 19:21
Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the LORD will stand.

God does indeed direct and instruct us to do good, but man is most often spiritually dead in their sin. The reprobate are not exempt from God's commands however, and they are responsible for their sin.

You changed translations of the above passage. Any reason why?

So, whose plans will succeed, man's or God's?

So, would you foreordain and send reprobates to hell without remedy like God?

You are right: God is either in control or He is not. However, just because God creates circumstances and allows sin for His purposes doesn't mean that He is responsible in the same way that a man is. When a man sins he is willing evil in his heart, and God hates evil, so he is worthy of death; when God purposes that a man should sin, He wills it for His good purpose, and He is not guilty of anything. You think my view of God is evil because I believe He is sovereign over everything, even the sins of men. Paul had people who said his view of God raising Pharaoh up only to destroy him was evil as well:

Romans 9:18-22
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

If God hates evil, why does He create circumstances, purposes, and allows it? BTW, what do you mean by purposes sin? If God hates evil, how did it get past His sovereignty so that evil exists? Did God realize His mistake and just let it happen?

I can guarantee if there is something I hate, I will do everything within my power to stop, control, and forbid it. Your belief is that God hates evil, but does nothing about it. Is there anything you hate, and yet allow it? If a person hates sin, should they just allow it in their lives, and let evil run its course? If you hate your anyone getting drunk, should you just allow it, even knowing the consequences it brings? If you hate pornography, do you just allow it in your house, and even create circumstances by which it may enter your house?

Here's a little about vessels of honor.

2 Timothy 2
19 ...“Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

Why does God choose a vessel for honor? Do you know? Have you sought the answer?

There are vessels for honor and some for dishonor. How can a man be a vessel for honor? Paul says if anyone (that means anyone) cleanses himself from the latter (that means anyone who cleanses HIMSELF), he WILL BE a vessel for honor, he will be sanctified, and he will be useful for the Master (the Potter). If a man freely chooses to cleanse himself, God will make him for a vessel to honor. If he doesn't cleanse himself, he will be a vessel for dishonor.

If a man does not cleanse himself, he has no right to say to the Potter, 'why did you make me like this'. It's very simple.

Just because God creates and fashions a body in the womb that does not mean the person is not born a child of wrath. Who's image are people born into? Are they born into Christ's image, or Adam's? Whose nature do we inherit?

Genesis 5:3
When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth

Was not Adam's image scarred with sin? Do people not begin to sin from the moment they are able to? Are children born seeking God, or ignoring Him?

Okay, you are getting off the path. You said that grown men should come to the kingdom like little children, for little children have childlike faith and dependence on God. What kind of faith do children of wrath have? Do they have faith at all? Where do you get that children of wrath are dependent on God? Are these traits of the fallen and unsaved according to Calvinism? Why should grown men come to the kingdom like fallen, sinful, and dead children?

Please explain your belief. Do men come to the kingdom like little, sinful, dead, fallen, and lustful children or not? If little children have a sinful nature, will that sinful nature bring children or grown men into the kingdom? Can you show me where man with a sinful nature depends upon God?

If a baby had the knowledge and ability (like they get with age), then they would sin, just as every man since Adam (except Christ) has. Yes, the wrath of God comes upon a person for such things, but why do people do such things? Why does every child without fail (except Christ) become a sinner?

You told me man should be like little children to enter the kingdom, then proceed to tell me the awful state of little children. Do men need to have a sinful nature in order to enter the kingdom? Does a man need to be a child of wrath in order to enter the kingdom?

You say a child 'becomes' a sinner. Does this mean they are not sinners at birth? You have built a very confusing situation here. Do you even understand what you are saying?

Let's see what James says about the origin of sin.

James 1
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

First, James does not say sin is from Adam. He does say sin is brought forth when lust has conceived. This is a result of man being tempted and drawn away of his own lust and enticed. You were correct when you said a child 'becomes' a sinner. He does not become a sinner from Adam. He becomes a sinner when is drawn away of his OWN lust.

James said a man receives the crown of life when he endures temptation. Here we have a condition for man to meet in order to receive the crown of life.

Why don't they use their clean sinless slate to choose righteousness and seek God? Why didn't God save all the babies in Noah's flood? These are some serious questions you need to ask yourself.

Why didn't Adam and Eve choose righteousness and seek God with their clean slate? Who says the babies were not of the kingdom? Jesus said they were. I am fairly sure the children were saved and are in the kingdom.

Jesus saying we should become like children is very easily explained...

Matthew 18:4
"Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

It's about being humble; children are humble, not sinless!

So, of such is the kingdom of God, involves becoming like children and humbling ourselves? Here again, we see a condition man must meet to enter the kingdom.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

You changed translations of the above passage. Any reason why?

So, whose plans will succeed, man's or God's?

So, would you foreordain and send reprobates to hell without remedy like God?

All of my verses have been from the NASB. God's plans will succeed always, and man's plans can only succeed if God allows them to. It doesn't matter if I would foreordain people to hell; God did, and that's what matters.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:22-23
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

Paul says God has made vessels specifically for His wrath; this is in context of God being called a potter who shapes the clay. Does that bother you?

If God hates evil, why does He create circumstances, purposes, and allows it? BTW, what do you mean by purposes sin? If God hates evil, how did it get past His sovereignty so that evil exists? Did God realize His mistake and just let it happen?

I can guarantee if there is something I hate, I will do everything within my power to stop, control, and forbid it. Your belief is that God hates evil, but does nothing about it. Is there anything you hate, and yet allow it? If a person hates sin, should they just allow it in their lives, and let evil run its course? If you hate your anyone getting drunk, should you just allow it, even knowing the consequences it brings? If you hate pornography, do you just allow it in your house, and even create circumstances by which it may enter your house?

Again, the intention is what matters: God allows evil for His GOOD purposes. You say if you hate something you do everything in your power to stop it. Has God done everything in His power to stop evil? Could He not wipe the earth clean at this very moment? Is He just doing His best but can't seem to stop it? Or perhaps He has a reason in allowing it continue?

Here's a little about vessels of honor.

2 Timothy 2
19 ...“Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

Why does God choose a vessel for honor? Do you know? Have you sought the answer?

There are vessels for honor and some for dishonor. How can a man be a vessel for honor? Paul says if anyone (that means anyone) cleanses himself from the latter (that means anyone who cleanses HIMSELF), he WILL BE a vessel for honor, he will be sanctified, and he will be useful for the Master (the Potter). If a man freely chooses to cleanse himself, God will make him for a vessel to honor. If he doesn't cleanse himself, he will be a vessel for dishonor.

If a man does not cleanse himself, he has no right to say to the Potter, 'why did you make me like this'. It's very simple.

Who's really shaping the clay here, God or us? Who is the potter? Who does the saving? These are very simple questions that your theology won't allow you answer correctly, because you have bought into the lie that man is in control of his destiny.

Okay, you are getting off the path. You said that grown men should come to the kingdom like little children, for little children have childlike faith and dependence on God. What kind of faith do children of wrath have? Do they have faith at all? Where do you get that children of wrath are dependent on God? Are these traits of the fallen and unsaved according to Calvinism? Why should grown men come to the kingdom like fallen, sinful, and dead children?

Please explain your belief. Do men come to the kingdom like little, sinful, dead, fallen, and lustful children or not? If little children have a sinful nature, will that sinful nature bring children or grown men into the kingdom? Can you show me where man with a sinful nature depends upon God?

Jesus explained what He mean't in the scripture I posted. We are to humble ourselves like children, and if we are saved then to be like children is to have a childlike dependence on God--to not think more highly of ourselves than we ought.

You told me man should be like little children to enter the kingdom, then proceed to tell me the awful state of little children. Do men need to have a sinful nature in order to enter the kingdom? Does a man need to be a child of wrath in order to enter the kingdom?

You say a child 'becomes' a sinner. Does this mean they are not sinners at birth? You have built a very confusing situation here. Do you even understand what you are saying?

Again, what did Jesus mean when He said what He did? Just because a child is a fallen human being doesn't mean they have no good qualities that Jesus can command us to imitate. Children are humble and Jesus wants us to have that same quality.

My question was why do children become sinners? Why don't they choose God and righteousness if they aren't born sinners? Again, whose image are we made in? We are made in Adam's image, and Adam was a sinner.

Genesis 5:3
When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

Let's see what James says about the origin of sin.

James 1
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

First, James does not say sin is from Adam. He does say sin is brought forth when lust has conceived. This is a result of man being tempted and drawn away of his own lust and enticed. You were correct when you said a child 'becomes' a sinner. He does not become a sinner from Adam. He becomes a sinner when is drawn away of his OWN lust.

James said a man receives the crown of life when he endures temptation. Here we have a condition for man to meet in order to receive the crown of life.

Why do men lust?

Sure, we endure temptation, but only because of God's Spirit working in us.

Why didn't Adam and Eve choose righteousness and seek God with their clean slate? Who says the babies were not of the kingdom? Jesus said they were.

They didn't seek God because they were ignorant of evil and believed the serpent's lie.

Jesus never said babies are part of the kingdom. He told us we should become humble like children.

I am fairly sure the children were saved and are in the kingdom.

Are you now? So all children who die go to heaven? If what you say is true then isn't abortion doing our kids a favor? Why would we deny our children a sure spot in heaven for a couple years on this planet of sin, death, and the possibility of hell? Love? That's not love: that's being selfish.

So, of such is the kingdom of God, involves becoming like children and humbling ourselves? Here again, we see a condition man must meet to enter the kingdom.

There is a lot of conditions in your view of the gospel that we must meet! How can there be no boasting if we are achieving things most men do not? We must be better than them, right?

 

[EmSw]

All of my verses have been from the NASB. God's plans will succeed always, and man's plans can only succeed if God allows them to. It doesn't matter if I would foreordain people to hell; God did, and that's what matters.

Sorry, I was seeing two different verses.

The plans of the 9/11 terrorists, of Hitler, of Stalin, of the Brussels terrorists, of every other evil act of man, and every step to carry them out, were directed (prepared, established, provided, ordered, and confirmed) by God, correct?

Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.

And since God's plan succeeds, all these horrific act of evil must have been God's plan also.

Ecclesiastes 10:2
A wise man’s heart directs him toward the right, but the foolish man’s heart directs him toward the left.

Here we have a man's heart directs him to the left or right.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:22-23
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

Paul says God has made vessels specifically for His wrath; this is in context of God being called a potter who shapes the clay. Does that bother you?

What bothers me is what man wants to read from that passage. Did you notice God endured with much patience? Strong's says patience is 'slow in avenging wrongs'. Yes, the vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction, but God is patient towards them in avenging their wrongs.

God will definitely destroy the evil and wicked man, but He is patient in avenging. Patient for what you might ask. Peter gives us this -

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

God is patient towards man, waiting for all to come to repentance. God is not out to destroy evildoers; He is waiting patiently for them to come to repentance. If man chooses not to repent, then yes, he will experience wrath.

Proverbs 16
5 Every proud heart is an abomination to the Lord; be assured that none will go unpunished.
6 By steadfast loyalty guilt is expiated, and by the fear of the Lord evil is avoided.

Every abomination to the Lord will not go unpunished; we can be assured of that. However, by the fear of the Lord, evil is avoided. Those who do not fear the Lord, choose to remain in their evil. And God is patiently waiting for them to fear Him, repent, and turn from their evil ways.

Again, the intention is what matters: God allows evil for His GOOD purposes. You say if you hate something you do everything in your power to stop it. Has God done everything in His power to stop evil? Could He not wipe the earth clean at this very moment? Is He just doing His best but can't seem to stop it? Or perhaps He has a reason in allowing it continue?

What good is there for you, an elect of God, to remain in your evil? Are you exempt in your evil from God's punishment? We are assured every proud heart is an abomination to God, and will be punished.

Should wipe out all His elect from the earth to stop evil? No! When man freely chooses evil, he will be a vessel of destruction; however, God is patiently waiting for everyone to fear Him, repent, and turn from their evil.

Our discussions are getting way too long. I will stop here.

 

[EmSw]

Who's really shaping the clay here, God or us? Who is the potter? Who does the saving? These are very simple questions that your theology won't allow you answer correctly, because you have bought into the lie that man is in control of his destiny.

I see 2 Timothy 2 has no bearing on your beliefs. Let's look at the original story of the Potter and clay.

Jeremiah 18
1 This word came to Jeremiah from the Lord:
2 Arise and go down to the potter’s house; there you will hear my word.
3 I went down to the potter’s house and there he was, working at the wheel.
4 Whenever the vessel of clay he was making turned out badly in his hand, he tried again, making another vessel of whatever sort he pleased.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me:
6 Can I not do to you, house of Israel, as this potter has done?—oracle of the Lord. Indeed, like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, house of Israel.
7 At one moment I may decree concerning a nation or kingdom that I will uproot and tear down and destroy it;
8 but if that nation against whom I have decreed turns from its evil, then I will have a change of heart regarding the evil which I have decreed.
9 At another moment, I may decree concerning a nation or kingdom that I will build up and plant it;
10 but if that nation does what is evil in my eyes, refusing to obey my voice, then I will have a change of heart regarding the good with which I planned to bless it.
11 And now, tell this to the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: Thus says the Lord: Look, I am fashioning evil against you and making a plan. Return, all of you, from your evil way; reform your ways and your deeds.
12 But they will say, “No use! We will follow our own devices; each one of us will behave according to the stubbornness of our evil hearts!”

God compares shaping a vessel of clay to His decree concerning a nation. In verse 7, we see God decrees He will uproot, tear down, and destroy a nation. That would be a vessel of destruction, or dishonor of which Paul speaks. Then we read this in verse 8 - 'but if that nation against whom I have decreed turns from its evil, then I will have a change of heart regarding the evil which I have decreed.

Do you not see that God will have a change of heart towards the vessel of destruction IF it turns from its evil?

And the we have the opposite in verse 9. God decrees concerning a nation, that He will build up and plant it. This would be a vessel of honor. But we need not stop there, for there is more.

If that vessel of honor does what is evil in His eyes, and refuses to obey Him, THEN God will have a change of heart regarding the good with which He planned to bless it. Do you not see the type of vessel depends solely on the nation or individual? This is the same thing Paul said in 2 Timothy 2.

And let's keep reading. The Potter gave this admonition to the clay - 'Look, I am fashioning evil against you and making a plan'. Did you notice God was making a plan at this time, and not before the foundation of the world? Do you see that this plan could be changed? How, you might ask.

By returning, everyone of them, from their evil way and reforming their ways and deeds. So we see God was willing to change His mind and make them a vessel of honor, BUT, the people said, 'NO USE, we WILL follow our own devices. These people are God's chosen, His very elect who said this. Then we have them saying this, 'each one of us WILL behave according to the stubbornness of our evil hearts' How sad! God's own elect wanting to follow their own devices and behaving according to their evil hearts.

So I ask, did God make them vessels of destruction because He chose that, or was it according to the evil ways and deeds of His very elect?

Now perhaps you will see what Paul was saying. No one is a vessel of destruction because God decreed it. In fact, we see in Jeremiah, that God would change His decree if the people did something of themselves.

Jesus explained what He mean't in the scripture I posted. We are to humble ourselves like children, and if we are saved then to be like children is to have a childlike dependence on God--to not think more highly of ourselves than we ought.

So, salvation is based upon one humbling himself. You can get around that salvation is dependent upon one's behavior. Even the verses in Jeremiah I gave showed it all depends upon the ways and deeds of a person which decided if he is a vessel of honor, or a vessel of destruction.

If a person just sits around doing nothing for his salvation, then God will judge him according to his evil ways and sinful deeds.

Again, this is getting too long, so I will end it here.

 

[EmSw]

Again, what did Jesus mean when He said what He did? Just because a child is a fallen human being doesn't mean they have no good qualities that Jesus can command us to imitate. Children are humble and Jesus wants us to have that same quality.

This is not what Calvinism teaches. I think 'total depravity' negates your statement.

 

[EmSw]

Jesus explained what He mean't in the scripture I posted. We are to humble ourselves like children, and if we are saved then to be like children is to have a childlike dependence on God--to not think more highly of ourselves than we ought.

I will try to finish up with this post. Let's see what Jesus said about humility and children.

Matthew 18
3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Becoming as little children comes after being converted. To be converted, according to Strong's, is to turn around. This involves turning one's self from one's course of conduct, i.e. to change one's mind. As we see here, one must turn himself from his course of conduct. What conduct is that? Let's go to Ephesians 2.

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

When a person conducts themselves in the lusts of his flesh and fulfills the desires of his flesh and mind, he is a child of wrath. As long as a person let's his lusts and desires remain, he will always be a child of wrath. Being converted is to turn around from these lusts and desires. If a person does not turn around from these lusts and desires, they will remain with him. This is required of a person to no longer be a child of wrath. This is also required from a person to make himself a vessel unto honor.

Once a person turns around, he is then to humble himself as a child. What does humility do for a person?

Leviticus 26
40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;

2 Samuel 22:28
You will save the humble people; but Your eyes are on the haughty, that You may bring them down.

2 Kings 22:19
because your heart was tender, and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants, that they would become a desolation and a curse, and you tore your clothes and wept before Me, I also have heard you,” says the Lord.

2 Chronicles 7:14
If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

2 Chronicles 12:7
Now when the Lord saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the Lord came to Shemaiah, saying, “They have humbled themselves; therefore I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance.

2 Chronicles 12:12
When he humbled himself, the wrath of the Lord turned from him, so as not to destroy him completely;

2 Chronicles 32:26
Then Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the Lord did not come upon them in the days of Hezekiah.

Psalm 18:27
For You will save the humble people, but will bring down haughty looks.

Psalm 25:9
The humble He guides in justice, and the humble He teaches His way.

Psalm 147:6
The Lord lifts up the humble; He casts the wicked down to the ground.

Psalm 149:4
For the Lord takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the humble with salvation.

Proverbs 3:34
Surely He scorns the scornful, but gives grace to the humble.

Matthew 23:12
And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

James 4:6
But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”

James 4:10
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”

Okay, enough for now. After reading all these passages, does your heart have joy for knowing what consists of humbling yourself?

Through humility, a person is given grace, is saved, is heard by God, is exalted, is forgiven, is no longer under God's wrath, and is guided and taught by God. There is so much to humbling yourself. So now we know why Jesus said to humble ourselves, and what little children possess.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The plans of the 9/11 terrorists, of Hitler, of Stalin, of the Brussels terrorists, of every other evil act of man, and every step to carry them out, were directed (prepared, established, provided, ordered, and confirmed) by God, correct?

I see you're up to you old tricks of misrepresenting what others believe and then debunking the straw man you have created yourself.

You have been corrected on the kind of allegation reprinted above many, many times before - by me and others here.

You believe that because you have found a new person to try your twisted version of Calvinism out on - it makes it OK somehow to misrepresent (read "lie" about) their beliefs and it will not be noticed by God.

You are sadly mistaken. God knows that you have been corrected about this kind of thinking many times through the warnings of His people and yet you purposefully continue to lie about others as you are now doing about the beliefs of ClothedinGrace.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I believe God is sovereign over humanity and that all is for the good of His chosen people. If you don't believe that, fine.

I don't feel like answering four posts worth of points, so if you want to continue this discussion then let's focus on a single issue. If you don't want to, no big deal. I just think we are dealing with too much at the moment.

 

[EmSw]

I see you're up to you old tricks of misrepresenting what others believe and then debunking the straw man you have created yourself.

You have been corrected on the kind of allegation reprinted above many, many times before - by me and others here.

You believe that because you have found a new person to try your twisted version of Calvinism out on - it makes it OK somehow to misrepresent (read "lie" about) their beliefs and it will not be noticed by God.

You are sadly mistaken. God knows that you have been corrected about this kind of thinking many times through the warnings of His people and yet you purposefully continue to lie about others as you are now doing about the beliefs of ClothedinGrace.

Oh, it's you Marvin. You want to change your story again?

Let predestination take its place, and quit complaining to me about it. If it doesn't sit right with you, please take it up with the Great Predestination Maker. You want to believe predestination, but just can't accept living by it.

I will take into consideration that your comments are based upon your dislike of God's predestination.

 

[EmSw]

I believe God is sovereign over humanity and that all is for the good of His chosen people. If you don't believe that, fine.

I don't feel like answering four posts worth of points, so if you want to continue this discussion then let's focus on a single issue. If you don't want to, no big deal. I just think we are dealing with too much at the moment.

I have no problem with that. But I wish you had taken a serious look at Jeremiah and the truth about the Potter and clay. And, this does talk about His chosen people.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Oh, it's you Marvin. You want to change your story again?

Let predestination take its place, and quit complaining to me about it. If it doesn't sit right with you, please take it up with the Great Predestination Maker. You want to believe predestination, but just can't accept living by it.

I will take into consideration that your comments are based upon your dislike of God's predestination.

This post, like many of your posts, does not make a lot of sense.

But then what else is new?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The doctrine of predestination is really just a matter who you think is in control. Yes, God predestines all things, but that doesn't make Him responsible for what men of their own wills do.

Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Yes, God ordained what would happen and He created the world in such a way that what he purposed to happen would indeed happen. But again, He is not tempting men as the father in your scenario does.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.



God's creations are His, everything is His, but God is not obligated to love those who are 'children of wrath' as Ephesians 2:3 says.

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Why would God have to adopt us as sons if we were already His children? Is it not because we are born into sin and are children of the devil?

John 8:44
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

With regards to the children, I have nowhere said that I have the power and wisdom to discern who the elect are. But, the point of Jesus' teaching was that we need to come into the kingdom like children: with a childlike faith and dependence on God. Jesus was not teaching that all children and people were His children, which is in contradiction to the verses I shared.

I don't know if I believe that God predestines the steps of the unsaved. Those who are saved that give themselves fully to Christ are incomplete agreement of God doing His will in their lives and God does.

I believe that God does not have time, so the future, past and present are somehow not relevant to Him and He is not held accoriding to time. With that said, I beleive that He KNOWS what each person will do, but that He only interferes and heavily influences the Christains life who has given their heart to Him and wants to do His will.

And I do not think that your verses prove any different, IMHO. In the same type of respect, I believe that God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent so He does know for Christains who will come to Him, but I don't know how much or if He would interfere.

 

[EmSw]

This post, like many of your posts, does not make a lot of sense.

But then what else is new?

Of course it does't make sense to you. Not even you understand predestination, for if you did, you wouldn't complain and gripe how things are going. If things are going according to God's plan, then you should accept them and not act as though it surprises you what is happening.

If God is in control, then let Him be in control. If His control doesn't please you, then maybe you should tell God He doesn't make any sense.

What is it about humbling yourself that doesn't make sense to you?
What is it about the Potter and the clay that doesn't make sense to you?
Do you think a fallen human being has any good in them?
If little children are fallen human beings, how is it the kingdom of God is of such children?
Now, if you would like to participate in these discussions, please keep focused on posts and not the poster.
Thank you.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Of course it does't make sense to you. Not even you understand predestination, for if you did, you wouldn't complain and gripe how things are going. If things are going according to God's plan, then you should accept them and not act as though it surprises you what is happening.

I do understand predestination at least as far as it has been explained to us by God.

Because something is predestined to happen doesn't mean that we do not participate. The doctrine of God's predestination of all things that happen and the doctrines concerning the free choices of men are completely compatible.

You have been told that dozens of times now and you keep acting as if you have not been corrected on this.

I may well have been predestined to live only one more day or it may be 50 more years.

Job 14:5 says, "A person's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed."

Psalm 139:16 says, "All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

But that doesn't get me off the hook as to whether I will be killed if I step out into traffic without looking both ways. Much of what God predestines He brings to past through the choices of his creatures.

The natural function of the creation works hand in hand with the sovereignty of God to accomplish all that He has sent His Word forth to accomplish.

This has to be at least a couple of dozen times now that you have been set straight concerning predestination and free will.

That's why I now talk about your personal actions and not just the posts themselves.

If God is in control, then let Him be in control. If His control doesn't please you, then maybe you should tell God He doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense to me. God is in control and I make choices. God is in control and I have complained many times. What thinking person suffering adversary wouldn't do the same?

Actually I know the answer to my own question. A person who does not agree that God is in control would never complain to God - reason being that they feel that they are in control.

To a certain extent they are. But ultimately in the final analysis they are not.

"Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil." James 4:13-16

Don't think that God is not in charge. That's evil.

What is it about humbling yourself that doesn't make sense to you?
What is it about the Potter and the clay that doesn't make sense to you?

They both make sense to me. Who said they didn't?

Do you think a fallen human being has any good in them?

Yes - even though the quality of that good is effected in many ways by the depravity that has invaded every aspect of their being.

You've had that question answered before also.

If little children are fallen human beings, how is it the kingdom of God is of such children?

They ask questions, listen to the answers, and then take to heart the answers they are given and apply them - unlike yourself.

You should try to be more like a little child . If you did you could perhaps participate in the Kingdom of God rather than just playing around the perimeter and taking the occasional potshot at believers as you so often do here in this section of the forum.

 

[GillDouglas]

I don't know if I believe that God predestines the steps of the unsaved. Those who are saved that give themselves fully to Christ are incomplete agreement of God doing His will in their lives and God does.

I believe that God does not have time, so the future, past and present are somehow not relevant to Him and He is not held accoriding to time. With that said, I beleive that He KNOWS what each person will do, but that He only interferes and heavily influences the Christains life who has given their heart to Him and wants to do His will.

And I do not think that your verses prove any different, IMHO. In the same type of respect, I believe that God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent so He does know for Christains who will come to Him, but I don't know how much or if He would interfere.

As always, you've given no Scriptural backing for what you want to believe is truth concerning the way God interacts with the people of this world. Despite how you'd like to do the molding of the Maker to your liking, His sovereignty has zero limitation whatsoever. How does God influence the unsaved? For one the Holy Spirit restrains sin, otherwise the world would be chaotic Second, the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to the unsaved and these are just scratching the surface. So tell me again how God ignores the unsaved, and only works through the saved?

 

[ToBeLoved]

As always, you've given no Scriptural backing for what you want to believe is truth concerning the way interacts with people of this world. Despite how you'd like to do the molding of the Maker to your liking, His sovereignty has zero limitation whatsoever. How does God influence the unsaved? The Holy Spirit restrains sin, otherwise the world would be chaotic, and the Holy Spirit revealing the truth to the unsaved are just scratching the surface.

This seems to be your opinion also.

I'm not going to argue with you. I shared what I believe. You do not have to believe it if you do not want to.

Peace and love.

 

[EmSw]

I do understand predestination at least as far as it has been explained to us by God.

Where does God explain to us EVERYTHING is predestined?

Because something is predestined to happen doesn't mean that we do not participate. The doctrine of God's predestination of all things that happen and the doctrines concerning the free choices of men are completely compatible.

Again, where does God explain ALL THINGS are predestined that happen?

What you are not telling us here, is that the free choices of man are limited. You want to make us think predestination and free will are compatible, but you really mean limited free will. Predestination and true free will are not compatible.

While on the subject of free will, every early church father believed in free will, and we aren't talking about limited free will. Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John, believed in free will. Here are a few of the other church leaders who believed in free will: Eusibius, Clement, Tertullian, Archelaus, Methodius, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Origen, Relagius, and many more.

Of course, we have those who did not believe in free will, and they were the gnostics, among whom was Mani. If those who don't know who Mani was, he was the founder of the gnostic group known as the Manicheans.

The significance of Mani to this discussion, is that Augustine, was a gnostic Manichean for nine years. It wasn't until Augustine introduced the denial of free will of man, that this doctrine was invited into the church. Augustine did accept free will when he was first converted, but changed his mind later on. The gnostic teachings of the Manicheans finally prevailed with Augustine.

Calvin and Luther relied heavily on the Catholic teachings of Augustine, and the gnostic belief on free will. What the early church fathers fought against, had taken hold with Calvin and Luther. A new era of Christianity was now upon the world. Free will had been defeated by this heretical, resurgent gnostic belief.