Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I have added NOTHING whatsoever.You are adding your thoughts about what I say to what I say.
Please my I kindly and politely urge you to check back what you have posted.....Stick with my own words. They in no way contradict each other.
Elects never reject cause they can't. Your posts keeps leakingI know what they are, and they prove your previous evasions to be false.
You hold to a false doctrine that ignores the message of Jesus and the New Testament. Jesus draws all men to himself. Now we must choose to follow this free gift of grace or reject it. If we want to follow Jesus, we must pick up our cross daily.
Calvinism denies these gospel truths.
U got five wrong again.Of course it does.
Calvinism denies that Jesus died for all men.
Calvinism denies that Jesus draws all men to himself.
Calvinism denies that each man will be judged for his actions on earth.
Calvinism denies that a man can turn away from God's grace.
Calvinism denies that a man reaps what he sows.
Fallen men have sufficient grace to render them accountable to God for their sins. They have sufficient grace so that they are without excuse when it comes to their rejection of Christ's work.
God warned Adam but Adam disobeyed. Death resulted. Now you want to tell God you deserve more than that
Yes you have. Please read the post and you will see that you have added your interpretation of what I teach to what I said. You are not just quoting me.I have added NOTHING whatsoever.
No they do not teach that men go to Hell simply because they were born. You are adding your rendition of what their words "really mean". Please reread Randy's book.Calvin does. So do those who follow Canon of Dort or Westminter Confessions which ALL say the same thing. This has been quoted here many times.
Nothing in your quote or in the Canons of Dort or in the writings of the men you mention denies what I have been quoted as saying.Calvin wrote: "God does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others.”
He defined predestination as “God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others.”
This is what ALL Calvinist writers - From Gill, Pink to Sproul and Grudem say and write in their publications.
This is what Canon of Dort say.
This is what any Reformed confession says.
"Neither I nor any Calvinist would say differently" Then you do NOT understand Calvinism.
Yes you have. Please read the post and you will see that you have added your interpretation of what I teach to what I said. You are not just quoting me.
You are doing the classic anti Calvinist trick of listening to the person's explanation of what he believes and then saying - "let me tell you what you really believe".
That's exactly the kind of thing that Randy Alcorn takes both Calvinists and Arminians to task for. Please do reread the book particularly that first part.
No they do not teach that men go to Hell simply because they were born. You are adding your rendition of what their words "really mean". Please reread Randy's book.
Marvin Knox said: ↑
"I do believe that God allows us to make choices that impact our salvation.
Neither I nor any Calvinist would say differently."
Nothing in your quote or in the Canons of Dort or in the writings of the men you mention denies what I have been quoted as saying.
Again - you're reading your rendition of their beliefs into what they say and representing it as their beliefs.
Please reread Randy's book.
...but I'd say "no." ....
Except that I don't consider myself to be a Calvinist and never have identified myself as a Calvinist.Neither I nor any Calvinist would say differently."
Calvinists from Calvin to Sproul and Grudem do say and do write differently.
Even some here on CF e.g
Albion said: ↑
...but I'd say "no." ....
Thanks for the clarification.Except that I don't consider myself to be a Calvinist and never have identified myself as a Calvinist.
What the OP states is not predestination it is fatalism. ...
He sovereignly has determined in His wisdom and power every breath and movement of every molecule in order to bring to pass good for His people and the glory of His great name.
Marvin said, “No they do not teach that men go to Hell simply because they were born.”
This is the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity, taught by mainstream Calvinists from Calvin to Sproul and Grudem. If you do not believe it, fantastic, neither to I as this is not in the Bible.
God “made them that way” only in that they are justly under a curse because of sin.Marvin said, "I do believe that God allows us to make choices that impact our salvation. Neither I nor any Calvinist would say differently."
Calvinists from Calvin to Sproul and Grudem do say and do write differently.
Even some here on CF e.g
Canons of Dort or in the writings of the men
They do agree with Calvin that man is total depraved, totally unable to repent because God made them that way. Check it out for yourself..
That is precisely the problem with certain models of the Trinity. They argue for three separate, unique personalities who have in common Deity or divinity. But that is still tritheism. Three men have in common human nature, but are still three men. Also, yes, Scripture implies a kind of trinity, but does not work it out. The Trinitarian formulas all relied on extra-biblical material, such as substance metaphysics.So then how can there be perfection in the Trinity if Jesus wants something different than the Father?
So then each member of the Trinity has a separate will and desires.
So then how can there be perfection in the Trinity if Jesus wants something different than the Father?
So then each member of the Trinity has a separate will and desires.
No – the doctrine of total depravity is that every facet of man’s being (body, soul, and sprit) has been negatively affected by the sin nature that we inherited from Adam.
Your objection seems to be with the doctrine of original sin. That’s a doctrine common to Calvinsts and Arminians alike.
That doctrine is further elaborated on by Jesus, Paul, and others.
“Fallen men can’t come unless drawn. We can’t understand spiritual things. We must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. God opened her eyes so that she could understand Paul. Given to the Son by the Father. Elect, chosen, predestined etc.” And on and on it goes – expanding on the concept of original sin and the effect of it on mankind.
Calvinists didn’t write all that stuff in the Bible. They just tried to make it all fit together systematically. In a few cases they messed it up. But in many more cases they pretty much hit the nail on the head.
God “made them that way” only in that they are justly under a curse because of sin.
I don’t like it any more than you do that men are born under the curse because of that first man’s sin. But the Bible teaches it.
But any man eventually goes to Hell because of his own sin and not because of original sin.
It would be better for a person who ends up in Hell to have never been born. I agree with the Lord on this point.
But the fact that God created/allowed/predestined/decreed or whatever other theological term one uses – doesn’t get God “off the hook” for what He did and is doing.
It doesn’t matter what heading you put on your belief system – if you believe the Bible – you’ll agree that it’s God’s show from start to finish.
He didn't have to make it so that anyone goes to Hell. He knew what would happen when He created man and put him in a garden with a tree that would kill him and a snake that would tempt him. He did it anyway.
I don't care what you choose to call the doctrine. Beating up on a certain group because they have named the doctrine something you don't like won't change those facts.
And if you don't realize that the Bible shows God giving more grace to some than to others - you just aren't paying attention.
Every time you pray for God to reveal Himself to a loved one you are agreeing that this giving of more grace to some than others is something you want Him to do for you.
He says He’s righteous and everything that He does is according to His good and perfect will.
Calvinists and I just agree that that’s the case and that we will likely have it all explained to us in due time.
twin1954 said: ↑
"What the OP states is not predestination it is fatalism. ...
He sovereignly has determined in His wisdom and power every breath and movement of every molecule in order to bring to pass good for His people and the glory of His great name."
I disagree with this person's conclusion.
The statement is right on.
Gotta go. See you in a day or two.
It is a shame that you didn't actually quote the context of my statement. Scared to? Or are you building a straw man?No – the doctrine of total depravity is that every facet of man’s being (body, soul, and sprit) has been negatively affected by the sin nature that we inherited from Adam.
Your objection seems to be with the doctrine of original sin. That’s a doctrine common to Calvinsts and Arminians alike.
That doctrine is further elaborated on by Jesus, Paul, and others.
“Fallen men can’t come unless drawn. We can’t understand spiritual things. We must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. God opened her eyes so that she could understand Paul. Given to the Son by the Father. Elect, chosen, predestined etc.” And on and on it goes – expanding on the concept of original sin and the effect of it on mankind.
Calvinists didn’t write all that stuff in the Bible. They just tried to make it all fit together systematically. In a few cases they messed it up. But in many more cases they pretty much hit the nail on the head.
God “made them that way” only in that they are justly under a curse because of sin.
I don’t like it any more than you do that men are born under the curse because of that first man’s sin. But the Bible teaches it.
But any man eventually goes to Hell because of his own sin and not because of original sin.
It would be better for a person who ends up in Hell to have never been born. I agree with the Lord on this point.
But the fact that God created/allowed/predestined/decreed or whatever other theological term one uses – doesn’t get God “off the hook” for what He did and is doing.
It doesn’t matter what heading you put on your belief system – if you believe the Bible – you’ll agree that it’s God’s show from start to finish.
He didn't have to make it so that anyone goes to Hell. He knew what would happen when He created man and put him in a garden with a tree that would kill him and a snake that would tempt him. He did it anyway.
I don't care what you choose to call the doctrine. Beating up on a certain group because they have named the doctrine something you don't like won't change those facts.
And if you don't realize that the Bible shows God giving more grace to some than to others - you just aren't paying attention.
Every time you pray for God to reveal Himself to a loved one you are agreeing that this giving of more grace to some than others is something you want Him to do for you.
He says He’s righteous and everything that He does is according to His good and perfect will.
Calvinists and I just agree that that’s the case and that we will likely have it all explained to us in due time.
twin1954 said: ↑
"What the OP states is not predestination it is fatalism. ...
He sovereignly has determined in His wisdom and power every breath and movement of every molecule in order to bring to pass good for His people and the glory of His great name."
I disagree with this person's conclusion.
The statement is right on.
Gotta go. See you in a day or two.
Not preprogramed but shaped by all our previous influences and circumstances in order to make us who we are at that moment. The robot argument is old and tired and easily refuted so give it up.Calvinists are seriously contradicting themselves if they assume God allows us to make decisions for ourselves. Rather, it is assumed that God predestined everything, including all our decisions. When we may make a decision, we were preprogrammed to make that choice by God. That is not true decision-making.
I have no idea what you are saying. Are from the US? Maybe there is a language barrier. I did not wish ANYONE burned at the stake. Either English is your second language or you have too literal an understanding of things. If neither of these is the case, I will refrain from replying to you to avoid further misunderstandings.
You've completely missed my point, which was that debates on this subject often digress into name calling and mud slinging even when one is trying to be reasonable and rational in his arguments. Often one is misunderstood, and even hated because of his Calvinistis views. This is the context of my comments, which hopefully helps you to understand what I was saying.
No, I am not going to give it up. it is precisely what Calvin argued for. Everything that happens, right down to the smallest detail, was all predetermined by God and happens exactly as he so predetermined it to be. That included all evil acts as well. If you want, I can quote you directly from his original "Institutes" on this matter.Not preprogramed but shaped by all our previous influences and circumstances in order to make us who we are at that moment. The robot argument is old and tired and easily refuted so give it up.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?