Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Albion]

Ok, how does it not?

First, I suppose that I should ask how it does, considering that you came up with the idea.

If you told me that I am destined to heaven, no matter what I do, then why work at it?

No one does tell you that.

If you tell me I am destined to hell, no matter what I do, then why should I care about what my actions do?

No one does tell you that.

At the very least--and because you referred to the "Calvinist point of view"--we need to say that if you've come across some individual who offered a guess as to some other person's eternal destination, that's definitely not the "Calvinist point of view."

Its like if you told someone that no matter what they do they are going to get $2000 a week to live on. They can work for a living to better society or they could set on their bums and watch tv all day, go on vacations, whatever. What path do you think the majority of people will take? I bet you that most of them would go the later route over the former.

Probably so, but none of that has anything at all to do with the belief in predestination. Not only isn't there anyone who knows whether you are among the Elect or not, but if you do choose to sit on your bum all day, you're NOT going to get that eternal vacation--not according to the "Calvinist point of view."

So if you know this much about it, would that be your choice of path?

In all honesty that is a depressing worldview IMO. Not knowing one way or another if you are one of the destined or one of the fallen, that would not make me live in comfort.

1. As I've explained, your depressing worldview is based on turning the Calvinist point of view on its head. Your speculation is based upon a mistaken assumption.

2. I can't say for sure if you would be living in comfort or whatever IF it were the case that you were describing the predestinarian belief correctly, but many find it a relief to realize that all is in God's hands as opposed to a lifetime of wondering "Am I doing enough?"

3. Nothing in this discussion has come close to showing why predestination might "lead to" "nihilism" in any case.

 

[bling]

God has certainly predestined (foreordained) most things to happen:

Would it still be God predestinating man: if God predestined to give at least some individuals the ability to make a very limited autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His Love (pure charity)?

Could God have predestined Adam & Eve to have a free will choice?

God has determined most thigs that happen to happen:

Could God “determine” that some choices would be left to some individual’s to make?

God could have prefect foreknowledge of everything, but that foreknowledge could be like historic knowledge with God knowing all man’s free will choices which is in man’s future, with man’s future being God’s endless present time frame.

Could God have a Love and power great enough to limit His own sovereignty in order to allow humans to have the free will they need to become like God himself in that they could obtain Godly type Love. If God programs into man “love” is that an instinctive love (robotic type love) which is not Godly type Love? And If God forces His Love on man is that not a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, again not a Godly type Love? Would a free will choice have to be involved in order for humans to have a Godly type Love?

For any being too thus obtain this Godly type Love, the being must be able to make at least one free will choice that must have likely alternatives. The choice is as easy as God can make it and still have it the individual’s choice. The individual chooses to accept or reject God’s Love (help/charity/mercy/grace/forgiveness) in the form of humbly accepting God’s forgiveness.

God (like the Father in the prodigal son story) will allow his children to spiral down (the result of their own choices) to the point they have the best opportunity to come to their senses (on their own) to either wimp out /give up (humble themselves to the point of being willing to accept pure undeserved charity, all for the selfish reason of wanting to live a life) or stubbornly take their deserved punishment like a man (starving to death in a pigsty) all to maintain some false pride.

That is the “one” real free will choice we need to be able to make: wimp out/ give up/ surrender to the enemy (God) to possible continue to live a little longer or be a “good” soldier and keep on fighting.

 

[Erose]

First, I suppose that I should ask how it does, considering that you came up with the idea.

I think I explained that.

No one does tell you that.

In a sense that is what is being claimed here. Either I am destined for heaven or hell and there isn't on single thing I can do about it.

At the very least--and because you referred to the "Calvinist point of view"--we need to say that if you've come across some individual who offered a guess as to some other person's eternal destination, that's definitely not the "Calvinist point of view."

I get that one cannot truly know, but I have noticed that everyone who holds this view, or a shade of it, usually believe that they are one of the members destined for heaven.

Probably so, but none of that has anything at all to do with the belief in predestination. Not only isn't there anyone who knows whether you are among the Elect or not, but if you do choose to sit on your bum all day, you're NOT going to get that eternal vacation--not according to the "Calvinist point of view."

So if you know this much about it, would that be your choice of path?

Yeah I get that, that one's actions is a sign of their "electness" or lack thereof. The issue here is with those who spend a long period of time living the life of an "elect" and then later backsliding. The answer usually given is that person was never saved to begin with. My question then is if that person died, while living the life of an "elect" would he/she have gone to hell? If hell is the answer then how does anyone currently living the life of an "elect" believing they are saved, know that 5, 10 or 20 years later they are going to backslide or not? You really can't know that, so then how do you know that you are saved right now?

1. As I've explained, your depressing worldview is based on turning the Calvinist point of view on its head. Your speculation is based upon a mistaken assumption.

What assumption?

2. I can't say for sure if you would be living in comfort or whatever IF it were the case that you were describing the predestinarian belief correctly, but many find it a relief to realize that all is in God's hands as opposed to a lifetime of wondering "Am I doing enough?"

Well one can believe that all is in God's hands, without believing in determinism. As a Catholic I don't wonder if "Am I doing enough?" That is Pelagianism, not Catholicism.

3. Nothing in this discussion has come close to showing why predestination might "lead to" "nihilism" in any case.

Then you aren't reading my point then. Granted, I may be skewed in my understanding of Calvinism. If so please show me where. From my understanding of the system, Calvinism is a deterministic view of Christianity. Following the road of determinism leads one to nihilism.

 

[Patmos]

Threads like this make me happy to be Catholic. In all honesty I don't see how the Calvinist point of view doesn't lead one to nihilism. Heck if you are already predestined one way or the other, and there isn't nothing you can do about it, then why even worry about doing anything Christ-like? Live your life as you see fit, and let everything wash itself out in the end.

Makes me happy that I am an Arminian ( no, no Arminian believes in absolute free will, please don't try that one).


19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[Patmos]

I agree with the OP, but at least in my understanding of the word "coercive" in context just means that God forces His Will to be done. I personally dont see this as how it works. We will only do what it is in our nature to do. If God gives us a new heart and His Spirit to guide us, there is no coercion required, because the person will naturally do those [and different from their old nature] things.

How is given a nature that guarantees us to do something not coercive ?

 

[Erose]

Any viewpoint that is going to jive with Scripture must take into account, predestination of the elect and free will. There are a few viewpoints that do account for both, I'm not sure Calvinism is one of them. I do know that the double predestination isn't Scriptural, and really just outright contradicts Scripture, especially the teaching of Ezekiel.

Catholics view that the issue of reconciling predestination and free will as a mystery, and not unlike Calvin, many have tried to come up with theories on how one can reconcile them. There is though a range within which one can have belief or opinion on this matter though.

 

[Albion]

I think I explained that.

OK.

In a sense that is what is being claimed here. Either I am destined for heaven or hell and there isn't on single thing I can do about it.

But that isn't what's being "claimed here."

We know what predestination means, but you have misrepresented it as including each of us KNOWING God's decision. We don't.

All the hypotheticals and "here's what it would lead tos" you've given me are simply speculation based upon a premise that is not correct.

I get that one cannot truly know, but I have noticed that everyone who holds this view, or a shade of it, usually believe that they are one of the members destined for heaven.

I suppose that's similar to the way it is with churchgoers in general. If I've heard it said that "She's in heaven now" or "She went to be with the Lord" or something similar, I've heard it a hundred times. People naturally want to be positive about it, having done what they think was right. I have never, by the way, heard a Catholic say that he expected to spend a long time in Purgatory as a penance for sins already committed and absolved by the sacrament of Reconciliation, even though that's exactly what the Church teaches.

The issue here is with those who spend a long period of time living the life of an "elect" and then later backsliding. The answer usually given is that person was never saved to begin with. My question then is if that person died, while living the life of an "elect" would he/she have gone to hell?

I don't know what you mean by "living the life of an elect." No one "lives the life of an elect" from what I can tell. They live the life dictated by the Bible, by Jesus' teachings, and/or by the guidance of the Church, but you can't say that this is "the life of an elect" exactly. It's understood that you can live a life of charity and honesty, etc. but not be among the Elect, just as we'd say that the proverbial "nice" pagan won't be among the saved.

What assumption?

That people know if they're predestined to salvation or to damnation.

Well one can believe that all is in God's hands, without believing in determinism. As a Catholic I don't wonder if "Am I doing enough?" That is Pelagianism, not Catholicism.

Strictly speaking, that's right. However, Catholicism does believe in "Works Righteousness," so they are similar except for how we stand at the beginning of our lives.

Then you aren't reading my point then. Granted, I may be skewed in my understanding of Calvinism. If so please show me where. From my understanding of the system, Calvinism is a deterministic view of Christianity. Following the road of determinism leads one to nihilism.

None of this is true. Calvinism does not lead to nihilism and I thought that by now we'd have gotten past that. What is usually charged, fairly or not, is that it leads to a certain self-righteousness, even though that would be illogical.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Albion]

God has certainly predestined (foreordained) most things to happen:

Would it still be God predestinating man: if God predestined to give at least some individuals the ability to make a very limited autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His Love (pure charity)?

Could God have predestined Adam & Eve to have a free will choice?

God has determined most thigs that happen to happen:

Could God “determine” that some choices would be left to some individual’s to make?

God could have prefect foreknowledge of everything, but that foreknowledge could be like historic knowledge with God knowing all man’s free will choices which is in man’s future, with man’s future being God’s endless present time frame.

Could God have a Love and power great enough to limit His own sovereignty in order to allow humans to have the free will they need to become like God himself in that they could obtain Godly type Love. If God programs into man “love” is that an instinctive love (robotic type love) which is not Godly type Love? And If God forces His Love on man is that not a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, again not a Godly type Love? Would a free will choice have to be involved in order for humans to have a Godly type Love?

For any being too thus obtain this Godly type Love, the being must be able to make at least one free will choice that must have likely alternatives. The choice is as easy as God can make it and still have it the individual’s choice. The individual chooses to accept or reject God’s Love (help/charity/mercy/grace/forgiveness) in the form of humbly accepting God’s forgiveness.

God (like the Father in the prodigal son story) will allow his children to spiral down (the result of their own choices) to the point they have the best opportunity to come to their senses (on their own) to either wimp out /give up (humble themselves to the point of being willing to accept pure undeserved charity, all for the selfish reason of wanting to live a life) or stubbornly take their deserved punishment like a man (starving to death in a pigsty) all to maintain some false pride.

That is the “one” real free will choice we need to be able to make: wimp out/ give up/ surrender to the enemy (God) to possible continue to live a little longer or be a “good” soldier and keep on fighting.

My answer would be that it's not what we mean by "predestination" if the point is that God directs events other than the individual's salvation (or perhaps damnation OTOH). Generally, all these other things--if they do happen that way--are called preordination or something else. And God could have predetermined all these things you wonder about, but there's no reason to think he did so. The fact is that we have Bible verses that suggest Election but not that these other matters were decided by God in any way other than as the Bible reveals--

Could God have predestined Adam & Eve to have a free will choice?

God has determined most things that happen to happen:

Could God “determine” that some choices would be left to some individual’s to make?

 

[Patmos]

My answer would be that it's not what we mean by "predestination" if the point is that God directs events other than the individual's salvation (or perhaps damnation OTOH). Generally, all these other things--if they do happen that way--are called preordination or something else. And God could have predetermined all these things you wonder about, but there's no reason to think he did so. The fact is that we have Bible verses that suggest Election but not that these other matters were decided by God in any way other than as the Bible reveals--

Hi Albion

I am not quite sure on what you are saying. I think you are saying God does not predestine ALL things e.g my WiFi just went haywire. But God does predestine things to do with ones salvation and damnation.

Have I got that right ?

Do you believe that man can make any choice or decision that might affect his salvation ?

 

[Albion]

Hi Albion

I am not quite sure on what you are saying. I think you are saying God does not predestine ALL things e.g my WiFi just went haywire. But God does predestine things to do with ones salvation and damnation.

Have I got that right ?

Yes. That's the issue when the subject of Predestination AKA Election comes up. People then often assume that everything that happens is included. But it's not believed that every last thing in life is predetermined or else we'd be nothing but marionettes.

Do you believe that man can make any choice or decision that might affect his salvation ?

This is almost the "$64,000 question," but I'd say "no." I'm persuaded that we cannot turn ourselves to God -- the real God -- without his assistance.

The decisions we make in daily life, moral and ethical ones especially, are a different matter.

 

[Tree of Life]

In order not to derail another thread and in the hope of getting responses from a wider range of Christians, I have posted this question in GT.

The original question "How is predestining ALL things not in any way deterministic ?"

The reply was:
"It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not “coercive".

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it."

My understanding that if God predestines something then it will happen and this is the exact same thing as God determining infallibly that something will happen. The use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.

What do other people think and believe ?

Coercion has to do with forcing someone to do something against their will. Predestination is not coercion because we still act according to our wills within the broader framework of God's decrees.

 

[Patmos]

Yes. That's the issue when the subject of Predestination AKA Election comes up. People then often assume that everything that happens is included. But it's not believed that every last thing in life is predetermined or else we'd be nothing but marionettes.

But would you say that God predestines the reprobate to be born totally unable to repent or even feel the need to repent?

This is almost the "$64,000 question," but I'd say "no." I'm persuaded that we cannot turn ourselves to God -- the real God -- without his assistance.

Perhaps bizarrely, I'd say no as well, not without his assistance. BUT, I believe we all get some assistance -Romans 2:15. So in a way I am saying yes. I am puzzled why a Calvinist would say yes.

I am debating, and disagreeing with Marvin who's says - yes!

....

I do believe that God allows us to make choices that impact our salvation.

Neither I nor any Calvinist would say differently.

I presume that you are not a Calvinist!

 

[Patmos]

Coercion has to do with forcing someone to do something against their will. Predestination is not coercion because we still act according to our wills within the broader framework of God's decrees.

Is Hypnotism some kind of coercion - the recipient is acting according to his altered will ?

 

[twin1954]

What the OP states is not predestination it is fatalism. Read the Scriptures and you will find that God never predestines things He predestines people. When it concerns the things that happen it falls under His foreordination. God foreordains things and He predestines people.

Now concerning the way God has foreordained all things according to His wise and powerful purpose we must consider that what ever God does not control must control Him. If He waits to see what will happen or even looks down through time to see what man will do then He learns and reacts to whatever He sees. If He reacts then He is controlled by what He learned. Therefore the acts of men control God and thus man is really in charge. Whatever controls God is His God.

Fatalism says whatever will be will be but God's foreordination of all things is His determining every circumstance and influence which shapes each of us and makes us who we are as individuals. His determining to save some of Adam's fallen race is not determinism or fatalism it is simply sovereign grace. What should amaze all of us is that He would save any. God's electing love in Christ Jesus the Lord alone is His majesty and glory in mercy to chosen sinners. Everything He does is for the purpose of His wondrous glory in sovereign mercy to sinners that He has put in, united to and made to be one with, the Lord Jesus Christ. He sovereignly has determined in His wisdom and power every breath and movement of every molecule in order to bring to pass good for His people and the glory of His great name.

 

[Albion]

But would you say that God predestines the reprobate to be born totally unable to repent or even feel the need to repent?

In other words, what's called "Double Predestination." I have no conviction about that. I'm disinclined to believe it, but I don't consider myself to be a Calvinist anyway. My own position is basically just that the predestinarian argument has a lot going for it and the freewill argument has a lot more difficulties than most of its advocates have considered.

Perhaps bizarrely, I'd say no as well, not without his assistance. BUT, I believe we all get some assistance -Romans 2:15. So in a way I am saying yes. I am puzzled why a Calvinist would say yes.

I am debating, and disagreeing with Marvin who's says - yes!

I have problems with his contentions, too. Some of them, anyway.

 

[Patmos]

In other words, what's called "Double Predestination." I have no conviction about that. I'm disinclined to believe it, but I don't consider myself to be a Calvinist anyway. My own position is basically just that the predestinarian argument has a lot going for it and the freewill argument has a lot more difficulties than most of its advocates have considered.

I have problems with his contentions, too.

Many thanks.

 

[Patmos]

What the OP states is not predestination it is fatalism. ...

He sovereignly has determined in His wisdom and power every breath and movement of every molecule in order to bring to pass good for His people and the glory of His great name.

Every breath and movement of every molecule, and that is nit fatalism ?

I am lost here.

 

[keltoi]

I think the whole predestination argument is so misunderstood its not funny.
Here's the clincher. Basically we have free will but God already knows what will will do.
We are the ones, not God, responsible for our own demise if it happens.

 

[Albion]

I think the whole predestination argument is so misunderstood its not funny.
Here's the clincher. Basically we have free will but God already knows what will will do.
We are the ones, not God, responsible for our own demise if it happens.

The way to look at it might be closer to this--

If God did not do something on his own to give us a chance of escaping from the consequence of our sins, what would we deserve on our own merits? Answer: Hell. So if God does intervene, is he entitled to choose those whom he will rescue? Well, sure. Is that unfair? No, not unless there's something unfair about we who commit sin not ascending to the presence of God who knows no sin.

ONLY if men were able to live their lives without committing a sin would it be unjust of God not to save them.