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ClothedInGrace

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If it pleases you then I will stop calling myself a Calvinist, as people seem to think it means I take Calvin's word over the Bible's. Ultimately the Five Points come from the Bible; Calvin simply explained it in an easy way, and so the theology has his name stamped on it. So there you have it, I'll stop calling myself a Calvinist; I only did so people could know I believed the Five Points, but apparently there is some extra baggage I was unaware of.

So, does anyone here read Arminius?
 
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Patmos

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Predestination has been mentioned a lot in preceding posts and there are several 'definitions' expounded.

John Calvin is quoted below and can be verified by anyone to show what is posted has NOT been twisted.

"BUT I am not a John Calvin Calvinist", says a Calvinist here on CF. " Rather I believe in TULIP", or Dort or whatever.

Check the wording and you will see many times it is similar to what John Calvin wrote. Many time EXACTLY the same.

"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others." Bk 3, ch 21, s. 5

"..we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction. ...he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation." Bk 3, Ch 21, s. 7



Calvinist writer R.C Sproul are me laugh.
He said that A Calvinist who does not believe in ALL 5 points is an euphemism for 'ARMINIAN'.
 
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Patmos

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If it pleases you then I will stop calling myself a Calvinist, as people seem to think it means I take Calvin's word over the Bible's.
Yes it does so please do. Thanks.

Ultimately the Five Points come from the Bible;
Ultimately, NO IT DOES NOT. You have either NOT read Calvin's Institutes OR you have NOT read the Bible.

Calvin simply explained it in an easy way, and so the theology has his name stamped on it. So there you have it,
There is nothing simple about Calvin. You speak in ignorance. So there YOU have it.

I'll stop calling myself a Calvinist; I only did so people could know I believed the Five Points, but apparently there is some extra baggage I was unaware of.
Better still, read a Bible.

So, does anyone here read Arminius?
Society of Evangelical Armenians has loads of them. Visit their website and you can find out what these guys - including Arminius ACTUALLY believe and teach.
 
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ClothedInGrace

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Ultimately, NO IT DOES NOT. You have either NOT read Calvin's Institutes OR you have NOT read the Bible.
No, I have read the Bible; the five points are all there. Men are sinners; God elects them; Jesus dies for them; they are born again; they persevere till the end.

You don't think it is strange that I believe the five points yet have never read Calvin's work? Maybe it's because Calvinism doesn't need Calvin.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I don't know of anywhere in the history of evangelism where the evangelist used predestination to explain salvation to a person to whom the gospel was being preached.

Can you provide one such sermon except for us where that was done? I'd love to know about it.

Thanks!
 
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Patmos

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No, I have read the Bible; the five points are all there. Men are sinners; God elects them; Jesus dies for them; they are born again; they persevere till the end.
Judas, King Saul....

You don't think it is strange that I believe the five points yet have never read Calvin's work? Maybe it's because Calvinism doesn't need Calvin.
Odd you say this. A troll in the Baptist thread claimed Calvinism does not teach Predestination.
Weird.
 
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ClothedInGrace

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Judas, King Saul....
So you deny that God saves His children. Okay. Paul's confidence was in vain I guess:

Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.


Odd you say this. A troll in the Baptist thread claimed Calvinism does not teach Predestination.
Weird.
That is weird, considering the Bible teaches it.

Ephesians 1:5-6
In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
 
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Patmos

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1. STOP telling me what I deny or DO NOT deny. Bearing false witness is a HUGE crime as far as Jesus is concerned. PACK IT IN.

2. Predestination as in the Arminian version. Good.

3. Here is the trolls post
.....
Calvinism has little to do with "predestination" or "foreordination". Seriously, you are way too caught up on those topics. In Calvinism, those things are of little importance. They are a sidenote.

And now you say in your previous post "Maybe it's because Calvinism doesn't need Calvin."

I am wondering if you are one and the same poster!
 
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Marvin Knox

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You're right - they are easily available for anyone to look up. They were demanded of the Westminster divines when they came back with their opinions of what the scriptures taught on these subjects.

In other words the scriptures that they used to arrive at their conclusions were published with the creed itself.

I told ToBeLoved that she could look them up and she told me that she already had her mind made up on the subject. Why on earth she asked for scriptural corroboration for the statements and then said that - I haven't the foggiest idea.

She wasted my time under a false presentation of her desires. That's why I broke it off with her. I'll do the same with you after this post goes to print.

If you want to refute the framers of the Westminster - reprint each scripture that they used and tell us why they were wrong in their conclusions.

If you think for one minute that I'm going to provide scripture after scripture for you so that you can refute them when they're readily available - you're absolutely crazy. Just as with ToBeLoved - I won't waste any more of my time with someone who can't be troubled to look things up for themselves.
 
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ClothedInGrace

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And now you say in your previous post "Maybe it's because Calvinism doesn't need Calvin."

I am wondering if you are one and the same poster!
I'm sure you are. I've already had a falling out with you, and I don't feel like doing it again. It is very clear that if someone doesn't fit your narrow view of Calvinism then they are considered liars. I've had enough of people on this forum using Calvin and other Calvinists against me as if they had any bearing on what I believe.

Let's stop and take a breather... I'll stop calling myself a Calvinist, and since I've stopped I really have no label.

You want to know what I believe? Here is what I believe:
1. The five Solas of the Reformation: Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Solus Christos, Sola Scriptura, and Soli Deo Gloria
2. The five points of Calvinism: Total Depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistable grace, and Perseverance of the saints

In case you are wondering, belief in the Bible (Sola Scriptura) and the gospel (Solus Christos, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia) are found in the five Solas.

I don't read Calvin or any other man's work: just the Bible. So let's not get worked up about whether I'm a Calvinist or not. I don't care what I am called anymore, as it just get's me into arguments.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Not quite sure what you are asking.
You seemed to be agreeing with what she said about Calvinists including teaching on predestination as a part of the salvation message. The cartoon you published was portraying that same sentiment about Calvinists and their message to the world.

I said the following to her:
Since you seem to be saying the same thing about how Calvinists preach the gospel to the world that as she was - I'm asking the same of you that I asked of her.

Please show me where that has been done.

It certainly wouldn't be routine even if you do provide an example.

But at least I'll know that ToBeLoved and you aren't just making things up to portray the Calvinist message in a poor light.

Thanks.
 
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EmSw

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And that sir, is based totally upon predestination.
 
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EmSw

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Then how is it that EVERYTHING was predestined, even to the smallest detail?
 
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Job8

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I am virtually certain the Bible does not say this. I think you are referring to a text where Satan is referred to as "god" of this world.
Satan is also called "the prince of the power of the air" and Christ did teach that there is a kingdom of darkness. Since there is ABSOLUTELY NO DARKNESS in God, He permits this kingdom of darkness to exist for a season. He ALLOWS it to exist, which does not mean that He created the kingdom of darkness.
 
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EmSw

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So, predestination gets under your skin also. Why not just accept what God predestines for you and love it? Remember, we are only doing, even in the smallest detail, what God has predestined, yet you fight against His predestination so hard.

I am not a WCF follower, nor believer. If these 'divines' knew God's mind before all eternity, then we might have something. I will confess, I know nothing of what God thought before the foundation of the world. Maybe these 'divines' of yours were present with God before all eternity, and God told them all about predestination and TULIP. If so, hurry and call National Enquirer!
 
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