Calvinism, explained.

[EmSw]

So now free will is a gnostic doctrine?

No, no, no. Man not having a free will was a gnostic teaching.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Marvin, if that's true, then the first 300 years of the early church were lies. The gnostics held the same belief you do, and were called heretics by the early church fathers.

I sure wish you would see this. Polycarp believed man had free will, and was a disciple of John. If John believed as you do, then Polycarp would have followed his mentor. Maybe you believe John didn't know what the scriptures clearly teach. Maybe John didn't left out the part which makes him the creature and God only the creator.

You haven't defined free will. Why not do that now, so we can have a proper discussion rather than a meaningless squabble.

 

[EmSw]

Right, because God is surprised by the choices of men. Like that time when those people chose to kill the man who made them look bad. The man who just happened to be God Himself. I sure hope that went according to plan.

Why do you think God was surprised by Jesus' death? No one has said that. If you think God was surprised by what happened, then you count His omniscience as limited.

If God had no plan of His death, would it have happened just the way it did? Or do you think it would have happened another way if God had no plan? God knew how it would happen from all eternity.

 

[EmSw]

You haven't defined free will. Why not do that now, so we can have a proper discussion rather than a meaningless squabble.

The ability to freely choose right from wrong, to freely choose good from evil.

 

[EmSw]

You are not free to live underwater like a fish, EmSw

Neither is that my will, nor desire.

 

[EmSw]

EmSw says that God has no plan.

All of us obviously disagree with him.

I have asked you before, which came first, His plan or His omniscience? Did God know all things before His plan? Or, was it by His plan that He came to know all things?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Neither is that my will, nor desire.

If there is a way to miss a point, you will find it.

We are trying to define free will.

 

[EmSw]

If there is a way to miss a point, you will find it.

We are trying to define free will.

Do you desire to poke a pencil in your left ear or right ear?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The ability to freely choose right from wrong, to freely choose good from evil.

I've posted these before. Which of these, if any, do you agree or disagree with, and why.

1. That a person is not forced from the outside to make a choice?
2. That a person is responsible for his or her choices?
3. That a person is the active agent in a choice made?
4. That a person is free to do whatever they desire?
5. That a person has the ability to choose contrary to their nature (who they are)?

 

[EmSw]

I've posted these before. Which of these, if any, do you agree or disagree with, and why.

1. That a person is not forced from the outside to make a choice?
2. That a person is responsible for his or her choices?
3. That a person is the active agent in a choice made?
4. That a person is free to do whatever they desire?
5. That a person has the ability to choose contrary to their nature (who they are)?

I agree with them all. Now are you going to convince me (freely from your will), I am wrong? Is this not your desire and you will do it, no matter what?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I agree with them all. Now are you going to convince me (freely from your will), I am wrong? Is this not your desire and you will do it, no matter what?

My intention is to help us understand each other.

I agree with the first 3 of 5 points, and most, if not all Calvinists would agree.

So, can we talk about 4 & 5 only?

 

[EmSw]

My intention is to help us understand each other.

I agree with the first 3 of 5 points, and most, if not all Calvinists would agree.

So, can we talk about 4 & 5 only?

I would be happy to do so.

 

[GillDouglas]

Why do you think God was surprised by Jesus' death? No one has said that. If you think God was surprised by what happened, then you count His omniscience as limited.

If God had no plan of His death, would it have happened just the way it did? Or do you think it would have happened another way if God had no plan? God knew how it would happen from all eternity.

So you admit that there is a plan, a Grand Design if you will, leaving nothing to chance having been put into place by the One who created all things?

 

[GillDouglas]

Just to clarify, that was GillDouglas statement.

To clarify I was being facetious. I believe that God clearly has a plan and we all have a part to play according to His design and intentions for the individual. I was simply using the crucifixion of Christ as the example that God can use the sins of men for His purpose. It went exactly according to His plan, all playing their part according to the design He put into place.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Just to clarify, that was GillDouglas statement.

I'm not sure where you are coming from on this. Some kind of missed communication I suppose. I was commenting to you about the difference between what you said and what EmSw has said:

Actually it did according to Jesus Christ. It went according to plan because they could not have taken His life if He had not laid it down by His own free will.

You said that it went according to plan and I said that EmSw doesn't believe there is a plan.

Why then do 25 verses say 'by faith'.......

Again - I'm not exactly where you are coming from here.

Salvation is by faith. I have never said otherwise. Neither has any so called Calvinist held a position other than that (that I am aware of).

....If we were predestined out of our control, why would we need anything?

Predestination says nothing about our lives being "out of control". On the contrary God uses our so called "free will" choices to bring what He has predestined to past.

God not only decrees what will happen in His creation. He decrees by what means those things will be brought to past.

We "need" something (unmerited grace) because of our depraved state and our attendant inability to exercise saving faith in that condition - according to the teachings of Jesus and Paul on that issue.

Why would then God put any condition on being saved?........ That makes no sense to me.

Apparently, because man arrived in his present unjustified condition through a lack of faith in God's Word, God has seen it to be altogether appropriate that our salvation should come about through justifying faith.

P.S.
You seem to be a little mixed up concerning what "Reformed" believers believe and teach concerning the relationship of predestination to the exercise of the will of fallen mankind (or even redeemed mankind).

It's not just you of course. Nothing personal meant by this statement.

People of the so called Arminian camp and those of the so called Calvinist camp often misstate the beliefs of the other side - either on purpose or inadvertently.

May I suggest a book written by my friend and former pastor Randy Alcorn where he addresses this tendency in a very fair and balanced way. The name of the book is "hand in Hand: The Beauty of God's Sovereignty and Meaningful Human Choice". I highly recommend it.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I have asked you before, which came first, His plan or His omniscience? Did God know all things before His plan? Or, was it by His plan that He came to know all things?

You seem to be laboring with the idea that I claim to know more about how the mind of God works than has been revealed in the scriptures. I do not have any special insight into the mind of God (who is not altogether like me) - nor have I claimed to have special insight.

Please don't base your beliefs on the ability of me or any other person to explain all of the mysteries of God to you. Just believe for yourself what God has revealed.

God has revealed to us that He knows all things and that He works all of those things according to His good and perfect will.

Marvin, if that's true, then the first 300 years of the early church were lies. The gnostics held the same belief you do, and were called heretics by the early church fathers.

It wouldn't be the only "lie" believed and taught within the history of the church early or otherwise

The gnostics did not hold the same belief that I do. They may have held the belief that you claim that I hold. That's quite a bit different. You've been rebuked many times, by me and by others, about your misrepresentation of our beliefs.

I'm pretty sure it will fall on deaf ears. But please stop it.

I sure wish you would see this. Polycarp believed man had free will, and was a disciple of John. If John believed as you do, then Polycarp would have followed his mentor. Maybe you believe John didn't know what the scriptures clearly teach.

Polycarp, John, and I all believe in so called "free will" - in so far as fallen mankind can have freedom in their present condition.

Maybe John didn't left out the part which makes him the creature and God only the creator.

Unlike yourself - John very much included that part in his theology - both in his gospel and in his epistles.

 

[EmSw]

You seem to be laboring with the idea that I claim to know more about how the mind of God works than has been revealed in the scriptures. I do not have any special insight into the mind of God (who is not altogether like me) - nor have I claimed to have special insight.

Please don't base your beliefs on the ability of me or any other person to explain all of the mysteries of God to you. Just believe for yourself what God has revealed.

You follow men who have claimed to know how the mind of God works in His secret will.

Here is an example from WCF, chapter 3 -

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.
VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,

If God's counsel of His own will is unsearchable, how did these men come up with this stuff? Were they given 'special' revelation just as the gnostics believe they are?

If the doctrine of predestination is a high mystery, how do you know anything of this high mystery? Do you have a direct connection to the mysteries of God?

God has revealed to us that He knows all things and that He works all of those things according to His good and perfect will.

If God's will is for man not to sin, and it is, how is He working that out?

The gnostics did not hold the same belief that I do. They may have held the belief that you claim that I hold. That's quite a bit different. You've been rebuked many times, by me and by others, about your misrepresentation of our beliefs.

I'm pretty sure it will fall on deaf ears. But please stop it.

Calvinist beliefs are like a box of chocolates....

I have read so many various, unclear, differing, and personal beliefs of Calvinists, it seems God predestined confusion among the Reformed.

 

[EmSw]

So you admit that there is a plan, a Grand Design if you will, leaving nothing to chance having been put into place by the One who created all things?

God has a plan for the way everyone is to be saved. And guess what Doug, that plan is for Calvinists, Arminians, or any other belief. Will that plan be followed by everyone? What do you say when anyone does not follow His plan? This plan does not depend upon predestination, foreordination, or decree; it totally depends upon man to freely choose this plan and follow it.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You follow men who have claimed to know how the mind of God works in His secret will.

Here is an example from WCF, chapter 3 -

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.
VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,

If God's counsel of His own will is unsearchable, how did these men come up with this stuff? Were they given 'special' revelation just as the gnostics believe they are?

If the doctrine of predestination is a high mystery, how do you know anything of this high mystery? Do you have a direct connection to the mysteries of God?

Much of the high and mysterious things of God are still a mystery.

But much has been revealed to us as well. It is what has been revealed of the mystery that the WCF speaks of.

We've been through this all before - have we not?

If God's will is for man not to sin, and it is, how is He working that out?

Very well indeed.

Sometimes two steps forward and one step back in my case but still very well indeed.

God is purifying for His Son a bride without spot or wrinkle. She will be a bride with total free will in eternity future and not the slightest chance of her sinning.

She will be (appropriately) just like her husband for she will see Him as He truly is.

I suppose that I'm like most people when I say that I wish we didn't have to go through this process to be fit for Him. But then - God knows best and He is working ALL things according to His good and perfect will.

Calvinist beliefs are like a box of chocolates....

More like a plate of manna.

.........it seems God predestined confusion among the Reformed.

The same can be said about so called Arminian beliefs huh?

I have read so many various, unclear, differing, and personal beliefs of Calvinists, it seems God predestined confusion among the Reformed.

It has indeed been predestined for the church in general as the scriptures clearly teach.

"For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you." 1 Corinthians 11:18-19

Much of the study and teaching of the scriptures as they have been written by the Holy Spirit is a test.

You should endeavor to study to show yourself "approved"- rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

It is in the area of the systematic study and exposition of the scriptures where you continue to fail the test.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm not sure where you are coming from on this. Some kind of missed communication I suppose. I was commenting to you about the difference between what you said and what EmSw has said:

You said that it went according to plan and I said that EmSw doesn't believe there is a plan.

Specifically that Jesus said 'No one takes my life from me, I lay it down'. So I said that whatever the Pharisee's or anyone's plan is they could not have killed God/Jesus unless He did lay it down. His life. As HE WANTED TO.

Would be nice to keep it in context.