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Calvinism, explained.

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Hoghead1

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Those are very good questions, Emsw. According to Calvin, God planned out absolutely everything, right down to the smallest detail. And, of course, it all has to happen exactly the way God planned it. All evil acts were planned out by God. On many occasions, Calvin says god did so as an appropriate punishment. Translating form the Old French, he said that murderers, larcenists, and other evil doers are the instruments by which the Lord exercised his judgments upon us. Interestingly enough, Calvin insists that God gets nothing from creation. However, he then suggests that the plan is a powerful PR piece to puff up God's ego. By saving some, a very few, God has the glory of being merciful.
 
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ClothedInGrace

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Those are very good questions, Emsw. According to Calvin, God planned out absolutely everything, right down to the smallest detail. And, of course, it all has to happen exactly the way God planned it. All evil acts were planned out by God. On many occasions, Calvin says god did so as an appropriate punishment. Translating form the Old French, he said that murderers, larcenists, and other evil doers are the instruments by which the Lord exercised his judgments upon us. Interestingly enough, Calvin insists that God gets nothing from creation. However, he then suggests that the plan is a powerful PR piece to puff up God's ego. By saving some, a very few, God has the glory of being merciful.
Believe it or not, but I believe God seeks to glorify Himself for the love of His people. He displays His attributes because He loves us and wants us to see Him for who He is and to worship Him as such. It is not strictly a puffing up of the ego, but is an act of love, for God is love. He is light, and as light He shines forth all of His colors in brilliant majesty for the eyes of His people to enjoy. He orchestrates the song of human history in a way that causes Him to shine the brightest for His people. His sovereignty is our comfort and our praise. I praise God that no evil is without a purpose in His plan. I praise God that everything is up to Him and not us. I praise Him that He chose to save some when He could have just as well saved none at all. I praise Him for His sacrifice on the cross and for the redemption it secured. I praise God because He is God. I praise Him because He Is Who He Is.

Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
 
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Hoghead1

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I have trouble reconciling your view, Clothed, with Calvin. For one thing, Calvin makes it plain that Go does not love the reprobate, the vast majority of the human race. The elect are apparently to sit around and think what a nice guy God is because he spared them, didn't give them what they deserve. But really, Calvin's God is really not a nice guy, a sado-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] bully maybe, but certainly a gentle, loving God.
 
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ClothedInGrace

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I have trouble reconciling your view, Clothed, with Calvin. For one thing, Calvin makes it plain that Go does not love the reprobate, the vast majority of the human race. The elect are apparently to sit around and think what a nice guy God is because he spared them, didn't give them what they deserve. But really, Calvin's God is really not a nice guy, a sado-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] bully maybe, but certainly a gentle, loving God.
For starters, I'm not a Calvinist because of Calvin: I've never read his works nor do I plan to. I simply believe that the theology known as Calvinism is taught in the scriptures which you reject.

Is God obligated to be nice and loving to evil people who deserve death according to His Holy standards? You--like every other liberal who thinks they can throw out God's Word--don't care about God's justice: So who are you to judge what God does or doesn't do?
 
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EmSw

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If God plans it then it will happen.

What we decide matters because our actions have very real consequences.

God planned for man to fall into sin to display His justice and mercy--His wrath and grace.Right, because God doesn't decide who is saved--man does.

Okay Clothed, I will present a scenario for you, but first, I would like to address your words, 'God doesn't decide who is saved-man does'.

So, you are saying God doesn't predestine, determine, or decide who is saved. I wholeheartedly agree with this. So then, there is no election for salvation before the foundation of the world. Man can't decide anything if he is not around. Man has to decide during his lifetime. Wonderful, we agree on something.

And God determines how He deals with man according to man's ways and deeds, which is during his lifetime (Zechariah 1:6).

Now, I will give the scenario.

I will use you as the father, and your children as your creation.

Did (do) you plan for your children to sin? Did you do this to display your justice, mercy, wrath, and grace? Did you predestine what would happen so that your children would follow your plan? One way to carry out your predestination is to drink, curse, be angry, have fights, beat your wife, beat your children, commit adultery, and lie in front of your children. Did you do this?

Another way, is to present your children with temptations in order to make them fall. You know, have booze open around the house, have harlots in the house, have bullies over, have porn on the TV, have someone murdered in your house, leave knives and guns laying around, expose them to all religions of the world, put candy in front of them and tell them not to eat any of it, and other such temptations.

All these things you predestine for your children to put your plan into action. And yes, when your children get drunk, curse, fight, watch porn, believe in another religion, eat the candy, and lie, you can come down on their heads for their sins. Yes sir, they are responsible, and you can get your justice, mercy, wrath, and grace on them. Doesn't that make you feel special your children acted the way you set out for them to do?

I will ask, did you, or would you do this to your children? If you did, I think the authorities need to be notified about your plan and behavior. Do you think the law would consider you just as guilty as your children, and maybe even set out to punish you for child abuse. If you say you wouldn't, then you are a better man than God; you have more love and respect for your children than God does for His. Congratulations. This is exactly what God does according to your views.

God planned for human history to happen for His glory. It is man who plans evil in his own heart and it is man who carries it out: Man is responsible for his own actions. God cannot do evil because he is Holy, but He has planned that man should commit evil for His own good purpose.

If God did not purpose evil to happen then He would have made sure it never did, because God is God, and what He says goes.

So, if you did not purpose evil to happen to your children, do (did) you make sure it would never happen?
 
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ClothedInGrace

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Okay Clothed, I will present a scenario for you, but first, I would like to address your words, 'God doesn't decide who is saved-man does'.

So, you are saying God doesn't predestine, determine, or decide who is saved. I wholeheartedly agree with this. So then, there is no election for salvation before the foundation of the world. Man can't decide anything if he is not around. Man has to decide during his lifetime. Wonderful, we agree on something.

And God determines how He deals with man according to man's ways and deeds, which is during his lifetime (Zechariah 1:6).

Now, I will give the scenario.

I will use you as the father, and your children as your creation.

Did (do) you plan for your children to sin? Did you do this to display your justice, mercy, wrath, and grace? Did you predestine what would happen so that your children would follow your plan? One way to carry out your predestination is to drink, curse, be angry, have fights, beat your wife, beat your children, commit adultery, and lie in front of your children. Did you do this?

Another way, is to present your children with temptations in order to make them fall. You know, have booze open around the house, have harlots in the house, have bullies over, have porn on the TV, have someone murdered in your house, leave knives and guns laying around, expose them to all religions of the world, put candy in front of them and tell them not to eat any of it, and other such temptations.

All these things you predestine for your children to put your plan into action. And yes, when your children get drunk, curse, fight, watch porn, believe in another religion, eat the candy, and lie, you can come down on their heads for their sins. Yes sir, they are responsible, and you can get your justice, mercy, wrath, and grace on them. Doesn't that make you feel special your children acted the way you set out for them to do?

I will ask, did you, or would you do this to your children? Do you think the law would consider you just as guilty as your children, and maybe even set out to punish you for child abuse. If you say you wouldn't, then you are a better man than God; you have more love and respect for your children than God does for His. Congratulations. This is exactly what God does according to your views.



So, if you did not purpose evil to happen to your children, do (did) you make sure it would never happen?
Honestly, I'm not even going to address your post. I told you multiple times that my statement 'God doesn't decide who is saved-man does' was satirical in nature, and I've already shared my thoughts on this topic for you to clearly know that I don't believe man decides who is saved. If you can't even discern what I believe then why should I discuss this with you?
 
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ClothedInGrace

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My post #1017 was satirical, too. Tell me if you can tell or not:

"Too far to save. Too bad, God really wanted them saved. He tried so hard, too..."

I've already expressed my belief that God chooses who He saves and that He saves them completely. This statement, along with the statement 'God doesn't decide who is saved-man does' were both obviously satirical. Not only this, but I even told you it was satirical, yet you go ahead and write a post speaking as if I did believe those things. I can't tell if you just have a hard time understanding satire or if you are deliberately ignoring my words.
 
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EmSw

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Honestly, I'm not even going to address your post. I told you multiple times that my statement 'God doesn't decide who is saved-man does' was satirical in nature, and I've already shared my thoughts on this topic for you to clearly know that I don't believe man decides who is saved. If you can't even discern what I believe then why should I discuss this with you?

Now you are acting the way I thought you would.

Why not address my scenario? I know exactly why. And, I didn't even mention 'saved' in the scenario.

Do you want to continue this discussion with the serious questions I gave you, or do you concede the scenario is true?
 
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ClothedInGrace

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Now you are acting the way I thought you would.

Why not address my scenario? I know exactly why. I didn't even mention 'saved' in the scenario.

Do you want to continue this discussion with the serious questions I gave you, or do you concede the scenario is true?
Yeah, you twisted a post I told you was satire and I reacted with frustration. I won't address your scenario until you admit that this was wrong:

"So, you are saying God doesn't predestine, determine, or decide who is saved. I wholeheartedly agree with this. So then, there is no election for salvation before the foundation of the world. Man can't decide anything if he is not around. Man has to decide during his lifetime. Wonderful, we agree on something."

I never said that and we don't agree on this issue. When you accept that I do believe that God predestines who is saved and that there is election for salvation then I'll address your scenario.
 
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EmSw

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Yeah, you twisted a post I told you was satire and I reacted with frustration. I won't address your scenario until you admit that this was wrong:

"So, you are saying God doesn't predestine, determine, or decide who is saved. I wholeheartedly agree with this. So then, there is no election for salvation before the foundation of the world. Man can't decide anything if he is not around. Man has to decide during his lifetime. Wonderful, we agree on something."

I never said that and we don't agree on this issue. When you accept that I do believe that God predestines who is saved and that there is election for salvation then I'll address your scenario.

Oh yeah, I've heard that I twisted what you said so much, I forgot to include it in the Reformed's mode of operation.

If you would quit using satire in a serious discussion, maybe everyone will know what you are truly trying to say.

Now, do you want to seriously discuss the scenario, or do you concede it is true?
 
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ClothedInGrace

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Oh yeah, I've heard that I twisted what you said so much, I forgot to include it in the Reformed's mode of operation.

If you would quit using satire in a serious discussion, maybe everyone will know what you are truly trying to say.

Now, do you want to seriously discuss the scenario, or do you concede it is true?
I haven't even read the scenario and will not until you demonstrate that you understand what I believe. I don't want anymore posts from you talking about me believing things I don't believe. You do that and I'll address your scenario and refrain from using satire.
 
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EmSw

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I haven't even read the scenario and will not until you demonstrate that you understand what I believe. I don't want anymore posts from you talking about me believing things I don't believe. You do that and I'll address your scenario and refrain from using satire.

Then quit using satire in a serious discussion.

You didn't read the scenario? So you jumped to conclusions without reading it. I've already told I didn't mentioned 'saved' at all, yet this is all you want to focus on. Are you sure you didn't read it? How can you have a true and meaningful discussion if you don't read what others write?
 
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ClothedInGrace

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Then quit using satire in a serious discussion.

You didn't read the scenario? So you jumped to conclusions without reading it. I've already told I didn't mentioned 'saved' at all, yet this is all you want to focus on. Are you sure you didn't read it? How can you have a true and meaningful discussion if you don't read what others write?
I stopped reading when I saw you using my satire to say that I believed things that I didn't. I'd love to read your scenario, just admit you used my satire wrongly.
 
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EmSw

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I stopped reading when I saw you using my satire to say that I believed things that I didn't. I'd love to read your scenario, just admit you used my satire wrongly.

I can't admit that; I wasn't predestined to. (satire, satire, satire)
 
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ToBeLoved

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Those are very good questions, Emsw. According to Calvin, God planned out absolutely everything, right down to the smallest detail. And, of course, it all has to happen exactly the way God planned it. All evil acts were planned out by God. On many occasions, Calvin says god did so as an appropriate punishment. Translating form the Old French, he said that murderers, larcenists, and other evil doers are the instruments by which the Lord exercised his judgments upon us. Interestingly enough, Calvin insists that God gets nothing from creation. However, he then suggests that the plan is a powerful PR piece to puff up God's ego. By saving some, a very few, God has the glory of being merciful.
I do not believe that God planned out any evil. That's a really sick POV. Vengence is the Lord's but that does not mean He interferes constantly on earth. There are other ways to venge something. Maybe in the afterlife.

And ... to puff up God's ego? lol. He is God for goodness sake, who is going to puff up His ego and I bet God doesn't even have one. What a waste of time reading that book.
 
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