Calvinism, explained.

[Thursday]

God could have chosen to give us perfect free will, but he did not.

So claim the Calvinists.

The typical argument is that if man has free will that this somehow limits God's sovereignty. That's a bogus argument.

The scriptural evidence is clear that our choices and actions impact our salvation.

It is not God's fault that a person rejects his will.

 

[tulipbee]

So do you believe that God is too weak to give mankind free will?

He did give man free will according to all the ability they were born with. Man can do all the things he can do on his own just like Calvin said.

 

[tulipbee]

Why do you keep saying that? No one here has suggested that God is incapable of doing whatever he wants to do.

.

John Calvin never said things like that. Only hillbillies told Thursday that. He fell for thier mountain wisdom.

 

[Albion]

So claim the Calvinists.

That's right. So do we understand the issue now?

The typical argument is that if man has free will that this somehow limits God's sovereignty. That's a bogus argument.

On the contrary, what this shows us is that you don't understand the point. If God created billions of humans and the eternal destiny of each of them was undetermined from birth to death, that would indicate a universe out of his control (at least as concerns this issue of salvation), wouldn't it? And if that's so, it would be reasonable to say that it means his sovereignty was limited, if only by his own decision to limit it. But can God limit his omnipotence that way without denying his own character?

 

[Thursday]

That's right. So do we understand the issue now?


On the contrary, what this shows us is that you don't understand the point. If God created billions of humans and the eternal destiny of each of them was undetermined from birth to death, that would indicate a universe out of his control (at least as concerns this issue of salvation), wouldn't it?

No. If that was God's design then it would be completely within his control.

He demonstrates as much here:

Eze 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

and here"

Matt 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No. If that was God's design then it would be completely within his control.

He demonstrates as much here:

Eze 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

and here"

Matt 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

Free will, in the sense you use it, is not even possible.

 

[Albion]

No. If that was God's design then it would be completely within his control.

It would be within his control to do it this way or not. If his decision were to surrender his sovereignty, you can't say that he still has it.

 

[Thursday]

Free will, in the sense you use it, is not even possible.

It is a reality, as you have just demonstrated.

Or did God force you to post the above comment?

 

[Thursday]

It would be within his control to do it this way or not. If his decision were to surrender his sovereignty, you can't say that he still has it.

Granting us free will does not reduce God's sovereignty.

God wants us to love him. Love is only possible if we have free will. If God's grace forces us to "love" him, then it is not love.

True love requires sacrifice:

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

 

[nobdysfool]

So according to Calvinists, God is too weak to give man free will.

Unfortunately for your dogma, the bible teaches us that our eternal destiny depends on the choices we make.

Romans 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.6


Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Luke 12:47
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

 

[Albion]

It is a reality, as you have just demonstrated.

Or did God force you to post the above comment?

I have suspected all along that the issue has not been framed properly. When we speak of free will (or the lack of same) it normally doesn't mean that we're deciding between the ability to make choices in life or, OTOH, being a mere robot operated in all things by God.

Theologically speaking, this issue matters only in the case salvation or, to be more specific, whether the individual can choose Christ--or not.

If we say "not" because we believe in Election, we're not saying that the person in question also can't choose chocolate ice cream over vanilla, but that God puts the thought in his mind which one to choose.

 

[Albion]

Granting us free will does not reduce God's sovereignty.

I explained why it does. You are free to give a contrary argument if you think there's something unconvincing about what I wrote.

 

[nobdysfool]

So according to Calvinists, God is too weak to give man free will.

Apparently reading comprehension is a difficult concept for you. I said no such thing. In fact, I said the exact opposite.

Unfortunately for your dogma, the bible teaches us that our eternal destiny depends on the choices we make.

All by your little lonesome, huh? Salvation is of the Lord, not of man's choice.

Romans 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.6


Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Luke 12:47
47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Great Scriptures, which do not really prove what you want them to say. Your problem is that you really don't believe God is Sovereign, you think that He gave up some of His sovereignty to Man. It is YOU who thinks God is too weak.

 

[Thursday]

Theologically speaking, this issue matters only in the case salvation or, to be more specific, whether the individual can choose Christ--or not.

That's the problem for a Calvinist.

You believe that God decides whether or not a person follows Jesus, and therefore, by default, it is God's fault if someone goes to Hell.

 

[Thursday]

Apparently reading comprehension is a difficult concept for you. I said no such thing. In fact, I said the exact opposite.



All by your little lonesome, huh? Salvation is of the Lord, not of man's choice.

We need God's grace to be saved. We can't do it alone.

That doesn't mean we don't have to respond to and cooperate with God's grace.

According to you, it is God's fault that any man goes to Hell because God alone is responsible for their salvation.

 

[Thursday]

I explained why it does. You are free to give a contrary argument if you think there's something unconvincing about what I wrote.

I already did.

God can choose to give us free will without reducing his sovereignty a tiny bit. That's HIS choice.

 

[Albion]

That's the problem for a Calvinist.

That's the issue for all of us. You take one side or the other, but you have to be on one of them.

You believe that God decides whether or not a person follows Jesus, and therefore, by default, it is God's fault if someone goes to Hell.

That's your conclusion, not mine.

 

[Albion]

I already did.

Oh, you must be referring to that "God wants everyone to love him" stuff. That reply didn't even come to grips with the issue.

 

[Thursday]

That's your conclusion, not mine.

That's the assertion of Calvinists.

You'll have to deal with it or admit your dogma is flawed.

 

[nobdysfool]

We need God's grace to be saved. We can't do it alone.

That doesn't mean we don't have to respond to and cooperate with God's grace.

According to you, it is God's fault that any man goes to Hell because God alone is responsible for their salvation.

What's this "according to you" baloney? Where have I ever said that? Do you realize that bearing false witness about someone is a sin?

Do NOT accuse me of things I have never said, and do NOT think that you know what is in my mind. You are way out of line in making those assumptions and accusations. STOP SINNING against fellow Christians. That is reprehensible behavior for one who claims the Name of Christ.