Calvinism and its Secret Universalism

[Hammster]

No I don’t., do you really think all sinners go to hell?

No, not all sinners go to hell.

So if it’s not for a bad decision, and not for sin, why do folks go to hell?

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, not all sinners go to hell.

So if it’s not for a bad decision, and not for sin, why do folks go to hell?

For refusing to repent and believe in Christ. You seem to be trivializing the significance of rejecting Christ as if it were a mere “bad decision” like choosing the wrong car insurance company or college fraternity.

So if all sinners don’t go to hell what separates those who do go to hell from those who don’t?

 

[Hammster]

For refusing to repent and believe in Christ. You seem to be trivializing the significance of rejecting Christ as if it were a mere “bad decision” like choosing the wrong car insurance company or college fraternity.

The severity is different, but it’s still just a bad decision

So if all sinners don’t go to hell what separates those who do go to hell from those who don’t?

They are sheep. Sheep don’t go to hell.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The severity is different, but it’s still just a bad decision


They are sheep. Sheep don’t go to hell.

For the sake of avoiding confusion due to semantics I think it’s best we avoid analogies and stick primarily to layman’s terms in this discussion. So what do you mean “they are sheep”?

 

[Hammster]

For the sake of avoiding confusion due to semantics I think it’s best we avoid analogies and stick primarily to layman’s terms in this discussion. So what do you mean “they are sheep”?

It’s not an analogy. Well, not one that Christ doesn’t use, anyway.


All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
— Matthew 25:32-33


“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
— John 10:11


These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
— Matthew 10:5-6


“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
— Luke 15:4

 

[BNR32FAN]

It’s not an analogy. Well, not one that Christ doesn’t use, anyway.


All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
— Matthew 25:32-33


“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
— John 10:11


These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
— Matthew 10:5-6


“What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
— Luke 15:4

Yes but what I’m trying to do here by avoiding the use of analogies is to get you to stop avoiding the root of the issue. I mean, that was the whole reason you resorted to the sheep analogy in the first place so that you could avoid admitting that the difference between sinners who go to hell and sinners who don’t go to hell is that the ones who don’t go to hell repent and believe in Christ. That is the determining factor. That’s what makes the sheep His, they hear and follow.

 

[Hammster]

Yes but what I’m trying to do here by avoiding the use of analogies is to get you to stop avoiding the root of the issue. I mean, that was the whole reason you resorted to the sheep analogy in the first place so that you could avoid admitting that the difference between sinners who go to hell and sinners who don’t go to hell is that the ones who don’t go to hell repent and believe in Christ. That is the determining factor. That’s what makes the sheep His, they hear and follow.

No, that’s the result of being a sheep. Hearing and following don’t make one a sheep. Sheep hear and follow because they are sheep.


But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
— John 10:26-27

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, that’s the result of being a sheep. Hearing and following don’t make one a sheep. Sheep hear and follow because they are sheep.


But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
— John 10:26-27

Yes they were not of His sheep because they were not hearing and following. Much like “he who has ears to hear let him hear”. Those who will humble themselves and listen will hear but those who are not interested and think they know it all will not.

 

[Hammster]

Yes they were not of His sheep because they were not hearing and following. Much like “he who has ears to hear let him hear”. Those who will humble themselves and listen will hear but those who are not interested and think they know it all will not.

I posted the actual relevant verses. How are you seeing it backwards?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I posted the actual relevant verses. How are you seeing it backwards?

They do not believe because they are not His sheep. His sheep hear and follow. They don’t believe because they don’t hear and follow. Now compare that to “he who has ears to hear let him hear”.

 

[Hammster]

They do not believe because they are not His sheep. His sheep hear and follow. They don’t believe because they don’t hear and follow. Now compare that to “he who has ears to hear let him hear”.

You’re still twisting it. They don’t believe because they are not His sheep.


But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

 

[BNR32FAN]

You’re still twisting it. They don’t believe because they are not His sheep.


But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

They don’t believe because they don’t hear and follow. He defines His sheep as those who hear and follow. So when He says you do not believe because you are not My sheep He’s saying you do not believe because you do not hear and follow. He’s saying “your not listening to Me”. That’s why they don’t believe.

 

[Hammster]

They don’t believe because they don’t hear and follow. He defines His sheep as those who hear and follow. So when He says you do not believe because you are not My sheep He’s saying you do not believe because you do not hear and follow. He’s saying “your not listening to Me”. That’s why they don’t believe.

That isn’t what He says. I’m actually posting the verse.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

He then describes His sheep by listing a characteristic of sheep…they hear and follow.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

 

[BNR32FAN]

That isn’t what He says. I’m actually posting the verse.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

He then describes His sheep by listing a characteristic of sheep…they hear and follow.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

And I’m explaining the verse. I could use the same analogy in our conversation right now. You are not of my sheep because you don’t believe my interpretation. My sheep hear and follow. You don’t want to hear or follow. You follow me?

 

[Hammster]

And I’m explaining the verse. I could use the same analogy in our conversation right now. You are not of my sheep because you don’t believe my interpretation. My sheep hear and follow. You don’t want to hear or follow. You follow me?

You are saying the opposite of what Christ said. That’s not explaining.

 

[returntosender]

"poor decision" is trivializing the importance. It is the most important decision of our lives. It is do we go to hell or heaven.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are saying the opposite of what Christ said. That’s not explaining.

No I’m not. How is that interpretation the opposite? You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep hear and follow. You do not believe because you do not hear and follow. They don’t believe because they’re not listening to Him. They don’t want to listen to Him because they want to condemn Him as a blasphemer. It’s very easy to understand for those who want to understand but for those who don’t want to understand they will reject it. Which is exactly why Jesus spoke in parables and exactly why He often said “he who has ears to hear let him hear”. This is the exact same situation that you and I are having right now that He was referring to. They were closed minded.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"poor decision" is trivializing the importance. It is the most important decision of our lives. It is do we go to hell or heaven.

Amen, there is nothing more important.

 

[Hammster]

"poor decision" is trivializing the importance. It is the most important decision of our lives. It is do we go to hell or heaven.

Is the decision to reject Christ a poor one?

 

[Hammster]

No I’m not. How is that interpretation the opposite? You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep hear and follow. You do not believe because you do not hear and follow. They don’t believe because they’re not listening to Him. They don’t want to listen to Him because they want to condemn Him as a blasphemer. It’s very easy to understand for those who want to understand but for those who don’t want to understand they will reject it. Which is exactly why Jesus spoke in parables and exactly why He often said “he who has ears to hear let him hear”. This is the exact same situation that you and I are having right now that He was referring to. They were closed minded.

Okay. I can’t explain it any clearer than Christ. And the point was that Christ saves His sheep. That’s why I brought it up.