Calvin quote

[Hammster]

LOL! That's not an argument.

No, it was pointing out the flaw in yours.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

What do you believe God foreknew means within the context of the passage?

God looks ahead to our decisions in response to grace, the Gospel and the awe of God, the wisdom, the words of knowledge to individuals. He foresees who will respond.

 

[Halbhh]

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

Assuming that the doctrine of Open Theism is false (which we must do in this forum), is this a true or false statement, and why?

Hmmm....another angle: it occurs to me to ask --

Why do the Calvinistic ideas require so much human effort, maintenance?

It's as if...it's like a car that is always needs work, to keep it running.

The gospel is such a contrast to that.

The Good News, the Gospel, is just True, powerful, uplifting -- it supports us, maintains us. Not us it.

 

[redleghunter]

God looks ahead to our decisions in response to grace, the Gospel and the awe of God, the wisdom, the words of knowledge to individuals. He foresees who will respond.

But the passage does not link God looking forward at someone else making a decision and then making His own.

How did you come to this conclusion?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

But the passage does not link God looking forward at someone else making a decision and then making His own.

How did you come to this conclusion?

God wants relationship with free will. He doesn't force people. He knows what we will do, the end before the beginning. He knew the work of the cross would be worthwhile, that some would respond and live in the light of life, because of it. God persuades, He does not force.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God foreknows people. Yes He designed us with purposes. That does not take foreknowledge.

 

[redleghunter]

God wants relationship with free will. He doesn't force people. He knows what we will do, the end before the beginning. He knew the work of the cross would be worthwhile, that some would respond and live in the light of life, because of it. God persuades, He does not force.

You have read that into the text. I could easily claim that “foreknew” means beforehand meaning foreknew modifies predestined.

Ephesians chapter 1 tells us God chose us before the foundations of the world. The Scriptures do not teach God looked into the future and then chose us.

Ephesians 1 is very instructive.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Act 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
Act 17:28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ ESV

I suppose from human thinking, God knew each individual, our interactions, and could consider many options, see it out in foresight and think again and again... to give us the persuasion to choose life and give life.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. ESV

Hear, persuasion, then sealed in the Spirit.

God does not choose falling, like Lucifer, Adam and Nero... It serves no purpose. God does not override free will. Or Satan could be forced to repent, and much good would come to the saints.

God foresaw many creation options, to choose this one, because free will is important to God.

 

[redleghunter]

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. ESV

Hear, persuasion, then sealed in the Spirit.

God does not choose falling, like Lucifer, Adam and Nero... It serves no purpose. God does not override free will. Or Satan could be forced to repent, and much good would come to the saints.

God foresaw many creation options, to choose this one, because free will is important to God.

You do know you quoted verse 13 before verses 4-6? Why did you do that?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

You do know you quoted verse 13 before verses 4-6? Why did you do that?

Because it had points I wanted to highlight. Reading the Bible in Chronological order doesn't make for correct theology, although there is the Bible narrative as a big exception.

 

[redleghunter]

God does not choose falling, like Lucifer, Adam and Nero... It serves no purpose. God does not override free will. Or Satan could be forced to repent, and much good would come to the saints.

God foresaw many creation options, to choose this one, because free will is important to God.

Those born of God are by His will.

John 1: NASB

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.​

We see this confirmed in Acts 13.

Acts :13 NASB

44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and begancontradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

47“For so the Lord has commanded us,
‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’”

48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.​

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. ESV

He wants us to be willing. The evil spirits have faith and are unwilling. We can't choose Him until He gives us the option, and He saves us by His grace through our faith. As we trust and sometimes surrender, and ask.

 

[redleghunter]

Because it had points I wanted to highlight. Reading the Bible in Chronological order doesn't make for correct theology, although there is the Bible narrative as a big exception.

Well rearranging a passage which is already in full context to fit a theology is called eisegesis.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Those born of God are by His will.

John 1: NASB

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.​

We see this confirmed in Acts 13.

Acts :13 NASB

44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and begancontradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

47“For so the Lord has commanded us,
‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’”

48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.​

God wills to persuade and wills grace. Otherwise the non faithful could be willed to change. Salvation without faith? We need to be persuaded to believe. We receive Him as in your quote by faith after an offer. Then He saves us from the inside out, the Spirit in the human spirit.

Those appointed to believe were the ones God knew would respond. Later the apostles return to the same place to make more converts. Their intercessions and persuasion with power was salvific.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Well rearranging a passage which is already in full context to fit a theology is called eisegesis.

I know what eisegesis is. I am not reading into the text to make it fit a preconceived idea or personal interest, but I respect the scriptures which reveal God as a gentlemen who does not want evil or force people to enter a love relationship...

In the Bible God only wills good, not the fall of a sinner or an angel... except when evil leads to punishment, God is all good.

 

[GraceBro]

No, it was pointing out the flaw in yours.

If that helps you sleep at night, I'm glad to help tuck you in. Sweet dreams my friend. Grace and peace.

 

[redleghunter]

God wills to persuade and wills grace. Otherwise the non faithful could be willed to change. Salvation without faith? We need to be persuaded to believe. We receive Him as in your quote by faith after an offer. Then He saves us from the inside out, the Spirit in the human spirit.

Those appointed to believe were the ones God knew would respond. Later the apostles return to the same place to make more converts. Their intercessions and persuasion with power was salvific.

These statements are not coming off clearly.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

These statements are not coming off clearly.

God first chooses us, and invites us to His church. His will moves ours. We are not naturally benevolent to seek God alone. God is first willing and this leads Him to give us grace, which is firstly an offer. Then His Spirit, which comes into our hearts. From the heart is the wellspring of life.

Force from God does not require a person to have faith, by which to seek Him. But we are saved by faith.

We need to be persuaded to mix the word with faith. Or else listen and ignore the message. By faith we can understand an offer to receive Christ... and by faith receive Him, and our hearts are enriched with a source of life, salvation from sin. The heart is the main matter for choices. And even though we have received Christ, He still does not force us but wants our trust and surrender before the fruit of the Spirit comes forth.

In that city you mention, God foreknew who would choose grace and peace under the persuasion of Paul. The intercessions, power, love, character of Christ shown them. But Paul was bold and brave, later he is back there and they make more converts. Maybe not from the Jews there. The demonstration of power was salvific. Faith in those who saw it was stirred up and firmed.

 

[Hammster]

If that helps you sleep at night, I'm glad to help tuck you in. Sweet dreams my friend. Grace and peace.

It has nothing to do with my sleeping.