Calvin quote

[Hammster]

Its on God what laws he gives and therefore what is sin. If there was a law that swimming is sin, all fish would be doomed to hell, because they would have a "sinful nature".

That’s true, I’m sure.

 

[solid_core]

That’s true, I’m sure.

It can hardly be called justice, though.

 

[Hammster]

It can hardly be called justice, though.

If it’s from God it would be. However, if you want to start a thread on fish and the potential they have for sin, then go ahead. We aren’t really discussing fish, though.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Whatever God does is just.

I absolutely agree. That’s why I don’t believe that He is the cause of peoples condemnation. It is the result of their own stubbornness and unwillingness to repent as Paul said in Romans 2:4-5.

 

[solid_core]

If it’s from God it would be. However, if you want to start a thread on fish and the potential they have for sin, then go ahead. We aren’t really discussing fish, though.

You obviously think that something is just just because God says so. Declarative morality.

You even think that to be punished for something I am unable to change is justice.

 

[Hammster]

I absolutely agree. That’s why I don’t believe that He is the cause of peoples condemnation. It is the result of their own stubbornness and unwillingness to repent as Paul said in Romans 2:4-5.

Are they doomed from the womb?

 

[Hammster]

You obviously think that something is just just because God says so. Declarative morality.

You even think that to be punished for something I am unable to change is justice.

Yes, whatever God does is just. And sinners are punished for sin. Which is just.

 

[solid_core]

Yes, whatever God does is just. And sinners are punished for sin. Which is just.

So if there was an evil God, you would say whatever He does is just, just because he is God?

 

[zoidar]

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”
Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

Assuming that the doctrine of Open Theism is false (which we must do in this forum), is this a true or false statement, and why?

John 3:16 "Whoever in the world that believes will be saved." Whoever here includes everyone.

 

[Hammster]

So if there was an evil God, you would say whatever He does is just, just because he is God?

We don’t have an evil God.

 

[Hammster]

John 3:16 "Whoever in the world that believes will be saved." Whoever here includes everyone.

I agree. But I don’t know what that has to do with the OP.

 

[zoidar]

I agree. But I don’t know what that has to do with the OP.

Nobody can be doomed from the womb since everyone has a chance to be saved (John 3:16). So the quote is false.

 

[Hammster]

Nobody can be doomed from the womb since everyone has a chance to be saved. So the quote is false.

I implied in the OP that Open Theism isn’t to be entertained. I’m holding to that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are they doomed from the womb?

From God’s omniscient perspective yes. But is it the result of God’s sovereignty no. To say that they are doomed as a result of God’s sovereignty means that God has caused their doom which is not the case.

 

[zoidar]

I implied in the OP that Open Theism isn’t to be entertained. I’m holding to that.

I'm not holding to open theism.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nobody can be doomed from the womb since everyone has a chance to be saved (John 3:16). So the quote is false.

From God’s omniscient perspective that could possibly be said but that does not make God the cause of their doom.

 

[solid_core]

We don’t have an evil God.

If you say that everything is just just because God does it (your definition of justice), then you cannot technically have an evil God, ever.

But its obviously an absurd theology producing no real love for God's perfections such as perfect love, perfect justice and perfect wisdom.

 

[Hammster]

From God’s omniscient perspective yes. But is it the result of God’s sovereignty no. To say that they are doomed as a result of God’s sovereignty means that God has caused their doom which is not the case.

God never forced anyone to sin. So He isn’t the cause of their doom.

 

[Hammster]

If you say that everything is just just because God does it (your definition of justice), then you cannot technically have an evil God, ever.

But its obviously an absurd theology producing no real love for God's perfections such as perfect love, perfect justice and perfect wisdom.

I’m confused. Are you arguing that there’s something God can do that’s unjust?

 

[Hammster]

I'm not holding to open theism.

Okay. Let’s test that out. If God knows that Bob will never bow the knee to Christ in his lifetime, is there anything that can change that?