Called out by name

[Douggg]

That doesn't say what you say.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-27. Says Jesus will descend and we will meet with him in the clouds.

There is nowhere that it says he will ascend again.

If for instance, you flew over here and i went to meet you at the airport it wouldn't be that i was going back with uou, that would be you coming to meet me and escort me back.

Jesus will descend.

David, them who are resurrected and them who are raptured are translated, join up togteher in the clouds, and Jesus receives them in the air.. Just like when Jesus ascended to heaven in Acts1 was taken up into a cloud.

Jesus will descend from the third heaven to above the earth, separated from sight by them on earth by the clouds, to resurrect the dead and translate the living. What I envision is that Jesus will descend from the third heaven and will circumnavigate around the earth in the air, not visible because of the clouds, resurrecting the dead and rapturing the living, then whisked away to the third heaven. A quick loop around the world and then gone. It will happen all so fast that no-one earth is going to see it happen. To them remaining on earth, it will look like people suddeningly disappearing.

In the rapture/resurrection event, in the text, Jesus never descends down to the earth, to stand on the Mt. of Olives like at His Return.

 

[David Kent]

David, them who are resurrected and them who are raptured are translated, join up togteher in the clouds, and Jesus receives them in the air.. Just like when Jesus ascended to heaven in Acts1 was taken up into a cloud.

Jesus will descend from the third heaven to above the earth, separated from sight by them on earth by the clouds, to resurrect the dead and translate the living. What I envision is that Jesus will descend from the third heaven and will circumnavigate around the earth in the air, not visible because of the clouds, resurrecting the dead and rapturing the living, then whisked away to the third heaven. A quick loop around the world and then gone. It will happen all so fast that no-one earth is going to see it happen. To them remaining on earth, it will look like people suddeningly disappearing.

In the rapture/resurrection event, in the text, Jesus never descends down to the earth, to stand on the Mt. of Olives like at His Return.

None of that is in scripture. Jesus will descend.
Not a secret rapture, but with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel and the trumpet of God. It will be a very loud event.
..

 

[Douggg]

None of that is in scripture. Jesus will descend.
Not a secret rapture, but with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel and the trumpet of God. It will be a very loud event.

Jesus has to descend from the third heaven in order for them raptured and resurrected to meet him in the air, right ?

What you are reading into the text is that Jesus continues to descend down to earth - to stand on the Mt of Olives, splitting it in half.

The text in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, does not say Jesus continues to descend down to earth, does it?

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus has to descend from the third heaven in order for them raptured and resurrected to meet him in the air, right ?

What you are reading into the text is that Jesus continues to descend down to earth - to stand on the Mt of Olives, splitting it in half.

The text in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, does not say Jesus continues to descend down to earth, does it?

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

That text does not even use the term, Jesus. So how do you know Paul was being specific with all the details?

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Paul is indicating that God is coming, not just Jesus. It is the Lord God that descends with all those already in Paradise. It was Jesus who claimed He would return to earth. Zechariah 14 states it is to the Mount of Olives. Acts 1, and those angels declared Jesus would return in like manner.

In 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul indicates God Himself the entire Trinity is part of the Second Coming.

In Revelation 6, all on earth see the Lord and the Lamb. The one sitting on the throne, according to Paul stood up and descended. The Lord was involved, not just the Lamb. Jesus comes to earth at the 6th Seal with the angels. The church remains in Paradise with the Lord. The Lord returns to sitting on the throne. So Paul did not specify what Jesus did at all, but wrote it was the Lord that descended.

 

[David Kent]

Jesus has to descend from the third heaven in order for them raptured and resurrected to meet him in the air, right ?

What you are reading into the text is that Jesus continues to descend down to earth - to stand on the Mt of Olives, splitting it in half.

The text in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, does not say Jesus continues to descend down to earth, does it?

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It does say he will descend. Where do you find that he will ascend again. It is just not there. You are borrowing that from the dispensationalist boys.

Incidentally where do you read the third heaven in that?

I believe there is only one coming, that to the Mount of Olives. The saints will be raised on the last day. Judgement is also on the last day.

 

[Douggg]

Incidentally where do you read the third heaven in that?

David, I get the third heaven from 2Corinthians12:2.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

From that, there appears to be three heavens.

first heaven - earth's atmosphere
second heaven - the cosmos, i.e. the universe, the stars, the galaxies
third heaven - the highest heaven, where God's throne is, and home to all the holy angels and creatures - which Paul in verse 4 calls paradise.

It does say he will descend. Where do you find that he will ascend again. It is just not there. You are borrowing that from the dispensationalist boys.

It does not say ascend again. Instead, that those gathered unto Him are taken to heaven is implied in the phrase...
"so shall we ever be with the Lord".

It would not be right to say ascend again, because Jesus will not be returning to heaven alone, but with the resurrected and rapture saints with Him.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[keras]

Did you learn a new word ?

English Dictionary: invidious - displaying resentment or unpopularity.
I am pretty much self taught and I read books which have so called; big words in them.

The people I interact with on the forums are, in many cases, semi literate and seemingly; virtually uneducated. I see this lack as why they grip onto theories and fables which do not have proper scriptural support.
There is also a resentment and unpopularity against anyone who refutes their false and incredible beliefs.

They and you, seem to never really thought through the implications of their beliefs.
A 'rapture to heaven', the biggest example, is simply untenable, as that means a change into a spiritual being before the final Judgment and the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

Over the years, I have refuted and shown how many of your beliefs are wrong. but it seems impossible for you to change. This is unfortunate, as when things do start happening, and be sure they will quite soon, as the current situation cannot continue for much longer; then as Jesus says: you won't know which way to turn.... Luke 21:25-26

 

[keras]

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Bible is quite clear as to where we will be forever with the Lord; on earth. Revelation 20 to 21
The fable of going to heaven, is completely wrong and cannot happen.

 

[David Kent]

They and you, seem to never really thought through the implications of their beliefs.
A 'rapture to heaven', the biggest example, is simply untenable, as that means a change into a spiritual being before the final Judgment and the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

Exactly

 

[Aaron112]

The fable of going to heaven, is completely wrong and cannot happen.

Hey, the greek and babylon fables, fairy tales, of hell and of heaven have been foisted upon billions of people in the last couple millenium.

Do you know what you say might spoil their hopes for a party and even from freedom from suffering they believe in ?

 

[Aaron112]

It will be a very loud event.

COOL!

 

[David Kent]

The Bible is quite clear as to where we will be forever with the Lord; on earth. Revelation 20 to 21
The fable of going to heaven, is completely wrong and cannot happen.

To get round that they have to make out that the judgment seat of Christ is different from the great white throne.

 

[David Kent]

David, them who are resurrected and them who are raptured are translated, join up togteher in the clouds, and Jesus receives them in the air.. Just like when Jesus ascended to heaven in Acts1 was taken up into a cloud.

Jesus will descend from the third heaven to above the earth, separated from sight by them on earth by the clouds, to resurrect the dead and translate the living. What I envision is that Jesus will descend from the third heaven and will circumnavigate around the earth in the air, not visible because of the clouds, resurrecting the dead and rapturing the living, then whisked away to the third heaven. A quick loop around the world and then gone. It will happen all so fast that no-one earth is going to see it happen. To them remaining on earth, it will look like people suddeningly disappearing.

In the rapture/resurrection event, in the text, Jesus never descends down to the earth, to stand on the Mt. of Olives like at His Return.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Did you read that? He went into the clouds and is coming back the same way. Only one coming.

 

[David Kent]

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Did you read that? He went into the clouds and is coming back the same way. Only one comi

Errors of futurism.

1. The main part of Revelation has nothing to do with the church. When God said he wouldn't do anything without telling his people

2. the judgment seat of christ is only for Christians. When the Bible says we must" all stand before it.

3. The great white throne is not for Christians.

14, (I know this only applies to some) The coming in Acts 1 is to the Jews and not christians, as they will1 already be in heaven.

5. The second coming is in two parts. Firstly for the saints,, secondly with the saints. The writer of The Coming Prince says there may be other comings.

If the dead in christ will be raised in the so called rapture, how will th following verse apply?

Heb 9:27 /And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Douggg]

Did you read that? He went into the clouds and is coming back the same way. Only one coming.

In Acts 1:9, it was a cloud, not clouds. It does not say how large the cloud was. So that is an unknown factor.

Jesus left this world from the Mt. of Olives, in Acts 1.9. The Mt. of Olives is where Jesus will return - to stand on it and split it half, Zechariah 14.

Coming in the clouds is not coming in the clouds of earth, but the clouds of heaven.

In Matthew 24:30b...

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus did not depart the disciples in the power and great glory, like at His return. So the emphasis is that Jesus will be returning to this earth from the same place He left - the Mt of Olives.

 

[David Kent]

i'1

In Acts 1:9, it was a cloud, not clouds. It does not say how large the cloud was. So that is an unknown factor.

Jesus left this world from the Mt. of Olives, in Acts 1.9. The Mt. of Olives is where Jesus will return - to stand on it and split it half, Zechariah 14.

Coming in the clouds is not coming in the clouds of earth, but the clouds of heaven.

In Matthew 24:30b...

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus did not depart the disciples in the power and great glory, like at His return. So the emphasis is that Jesus will be returning to this earth from the same place He left - the Mt of Olives.

You are forcing an interpretation on these verses. In the clouds doesn't mean he is coming to the clouds, bet that he will be seen coming in the clouds.

You remind me of a speaker at an Anglican church where I went to a lunchtime meeting in London once. They were speaking of Jesus ascending into the clouds and said the last thing the disciples saw was his feet, and went on to speak about feet. Missing the whole point, just as you do.

Do you think that the prophecy of standing on Olivet was in the past then, after all he stood there many times. Splitting is could refer to the Jews being split between believers and not believers. I am just submitting what some may think.

 

[Timtofly]

Heb 9:27 /And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

What about those judged who have not yet physically died? Their judgment determines how they physically die. Paul said many will be alive and remain at the Second Coming. Not all will be caught up, as not all living will be redeemed at that point in time. Do you expect every one on earth to physically drop dead at the moment of the Second Coming, because that is what that verse points out?

 

[Douggg]

You are forcing an interpretation on these verses. In the clouds doesn't mean he is coming to the clouds, bet that he will be seen coming in the clouds.

I did not say coming to the clouds.

The point I was making with Matthew 24:30b is that at Jesus's return, the clouds are not the clouds of the earth. but the clouds of heaven.

Which is different than the clouds in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, which are clouds of the earth.

The rapture/resurrection event, therefore, is different than Jesus return event.

rapture/resurrection event - clouds of earth.
Jesus's return event - clouds of heaven

Do you think that the prophecy of standing on Olivet was in the past then, after all he stood there many times. Splitting is could refer to the Jews being split between believers and not believers. I am just submitting what some may think.

No, the splitting of the Mt. of Olives will be literal at Jesus's return event.

 

[keras]

I did not say coming to the clouds.

The point I was making with Matthew 24:30b is that at Jesus's return, the clouds are not the clouds of the earth. but the clouds of heaven.

Which is different than the clouds in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, which are clouds of the earth.

The rapture/resurrection event, therefore, is different than Jesus return event.

rapture/resurrection event - clouds of earth.
Jesus's return event - clouds of heaven

A prime example of making an issue out of a translation difference, into the proof of a whole doctrine.
I am sure that in both instances, the clouds mentioned are normal water vapor clouds

No, the splitting of the Mt. of Olives will be literal at Jesus's return event.

Yes, this is what will happen at the glorious Return of Jesus . It is also the time of the Seventh Bowl, Revelation 16:17-18....a violent earthquake, so severe that nothing like it has happened in human history. Also Prophesied in Revelation 11:19

 

[Douggg]

Yes, this is what will happen at the glorious Return of Jesus . It is also the time of the Seventh Bowl, Revelation 16:17-18....a violent earthquake, so severe that nothing like it has happened in human history. Also Prophesied in Revelation 11:19

keras, in your scenario, if you have the current population of Israel decimated in a solar event, and in the aftermath replaced with Christians coming from around the world to create a new nation called Beulah. And Christians rebuilding the temple, that later gets occupied by the Antichrist turned beast, and the abomination of desolation setup.

And you have Christians at that time raptured to other parts of the world, so-called places of safety, to escape the great tribulation.

Then who is Jesus rescuing in Zechariah 14, who will escape harm by fleeing through the valley when Jesus splits the Mt. of Olives in half ?