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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Christians would argue that God's record of events can be trusted, and so is legitimate evidence on this board.

And there are also many who note that, while is the foundation of their faith, it is worthless a scientific text in face of God's actual creation.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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That is not responding to the evidence. That is just a blanket denial of the evidence provided.

You are making a blanket judgment without responding to the evidence provided. If that is how you win your arguments, then you are the proverbial ostrich who buries head in sand.

What part of "You're bringing nothing to the discussion" do you not get? You aren't bringing anything new to the table, and you are certainly not arguing for creation, only the Flood.
Where is your evidence for Creation?
 
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setst777

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Did the founding of this republic and it's 1787 constitution correspond to a "turning away from the faith"? If not this "prophesy" is not, or at least doesn't apply to the secularity of the US.

For those who drafted it, apparently it was, since they could have recognized God as the Declaration of Independence did. Those who drafted the 1787 constitutions made an obvious choice to take God out.
 
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setst777

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And there are also many who note that, while is the foundation of their faith, it is worthless a scientific text in face of God's actual creation.

No, the facts which God has stated as to creation, are understood by Christians to be fact. And the scientific data confirms God's account to be true. However, you ignore the scientific facts supporting the creation account outright. And this shows that your agenda is to refuse the creation theory no matter what evidence is provided.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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No, the facts which God has stated as to creation, are understood by Christians to be fact. And the scientific data confirms God's account to be true. However, you ignore the scientific facts supporting the creation account outright. And this shows that your agenda is to refuse the creation theory no matter what evidence is provided.

And those scientific facts are...?
 
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setst777

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What part of "You're bringing nothing to the discussion" do you not get? You aren't bringing anything new to the table, and you are certainly not arguing for creation, only the Flood.
Where is your evidence for Creation?

Respond to the evidence provided that you asked for. If you don't, that means you are the proverbial ostrich who sticks her head in the sand.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Respond to the evidence provided that you asked for. If you don't, that means you are the proverbial ostrich who sticks her head in the sand.

Claims about evidence for the Noahic flood isn't evidence for creation. Why is that hard for you to understand?
 
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setst777

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Claims about evidence for the Noahic flood isn't evidence for creation. Why is that hard for you to understand?

You have not responded to the evidence provided, and you refuse to do so. So, you have already lost, and Creation stands. Any whining on your part that this is not true is meaningless, because you could not respond to the evidence provided.

Good Day.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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You have not responded to the evidence provided, and you refuse to do so. So, you have already lost, and Creation stands. Any whining on your part that this is not true is meaningless, because you could not respond to the evidence provided.

Good Day.

Now who's being the ostrich with their head in the sand? Not I.

Look, it's a very simple thing: evidence for the Flood is only evidence for the Flood, not creation. If you have evidence for creation, then show it. Because your poor understanding of geological formations and fossils is definitely not evidence for creation.
 
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Hans Blaster

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For those who drafted it, apparently it was, since they could have recognized God as the Declaration of Independence did. Those who drafted the 1787 constitutions made an obvious choice to take God out.

Your endtimes prophecy was a prophecy to the drafters of the Constitution because they could have made it religious?

I don't follow. Nor has the prophezised endtime arrived 235 years later. It must not be really the prophecy then...

There is only the one 1787 Constitution (the US Constitution) and god wasn't "taken out" so much as "left out".

But enough of this which is irrelevant to the thread...
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I agree. Creation is a theory that is the best explanation of the facts, even though many are duped into believing in evolution. What is most popular does not mean it is most correct.
So what is the evidence that supports the creation theory, and what are its testable predictions?

If you'd like to compare creation and evolution as scientific theories/hypotheses to establish which is the better explanation, I can list the reasonable criteria for determining the best explanation - but it's an instant fail if you can't present some testable predictions because without those it's not a scientific hypothesis/theory.
 
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tas8831

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You are writing nonsense, because you are not actually reading the responses given.
You obviously have very little knowledge of the evidence and how it is used.
Read
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These are not stories, these are scientific facts.

"So the fossils tell us that the rock layers that now contain the fossils were not always rock;"

Therefore, Genesis? Can't decide whether to laugh or shake my head at your line of "reasoning" here. Let's take a look at a couple of your evidence-free assertions and break them down to see if they are "scientific facts" - things I've made red are non-sequiturs or loaded phrases, or not in evidence:

"So the fossils tell us that the rock layers that now contain the fossils were not always rock; rather, most rock containing fossils used to be sediment that quickly covered a vast number of organic things, and so, formed various types of fossils within the rock layers. And this was worldwide."​

You are engaging in a sort of bait-and-switch - you start with something noncontroversial:

"So the fossils tell us that the rock layers that now contain the fossils were not always rock;"​

then add baggage that does not follow/for which you present no evidence:

"that quickly covered a vast number of organic things"​

and then you use this to imply a conclusion:

"this was worldwide"​

Was it? While I am sure that the process you describe (though the 'vast number of organic things' needs to be clarified) is 'world wide', the obvious implication that you are making ('worldwide all at once in the Noah flood') is not the same thing, and for which there is no evidence.
Which is ironic - for decades, creationists argued AGAINST the 'universal' geologic column at every turn, trying to undermine the standard geology/geologic timescale/etc., all the while not understanding how desperately they NEED for there to be a consistent, world-wide geologic column showing unbroken uniformity. Poor creationists, never thinking their claims through...

Naturally the more simple life forms, are less mobile, and they sink when dead, would normally be covered by sediment first. Then aquatic life, which naturally survive in water, will be covered by sediment second. The less mobile a creature is, the more likely that creature will be covered in sediment sooner, while the more complex and mobile creatures will be able to escape the flood more readily, and will also float when dead, allowing them to escape being quickly buried in sediment until later, if at all.​

Surely, you do not think this is "scientific fact'? I mean, this is just paraphrasing racist kook Henry Morris' claims, which are handily debunked and have been so for decades.
Let's take a look at the child-like silliness of some of this:

Naturally the more simple life forms, are less mobile, and they sink when dead, would normally be covered by sediment first.​

Do you consider insects 'simple life forms'? Because, you know, a lot of them float. And fly. And dig. Or is this specifically referring to things like molluscs? Or maybe like algae? Because some of them are motile. You'll have to be more explicit.

Then aquatic life, which naturally survive in water, will be covered by sediment second.

Why would aquatic life be "covered by sediment"? Couldn't they, you know, swim to avoid it?

The less mobile a creature is, the more likely that creature will be covered in sediment sooner,​

OK. This covers marine and lake-dwelling molluscs and such. Yet... The fossil record shows strata with such critters... underneath other layers with other such critters in it. Why aren't ALL such critters found in the exact same stratum? How could they not all be in the same stratum if what you say has any merit at all?

My first year in graduate school, I attended a lecture by SJ Gould. The topic was 'the rise of creationism in America.' He went through Morris' hydrodynamic sorting thing (which you seem to have bought into), and said something like 'If you know a little science, this seems to make sense. If you know a lot of science, you can see it for the nonsense it is.' He then spent some time explaining how this notion of 'sorting' due to lifestyle/hydrodynamics did not actually fit the actual patterns we see in the fossils record. I guess you haven't gotten to that part of your studies, yet?

The less mobile a creature is, the more likely that creature will be covered in sediment sooner, while the more complex and mobile creatures will be able to escape the flood more readily,​

So, what about turtles? And sloths? They should WAY down in the fossil record, just above clams and such, right? But wait, they are pretty complex... And so are fish - why would they be covered earlier, again? Oh, right - they don't float when dead.
NA-BK613_FISHKI_G_20110308184849.jpg




and will also float when dead, allowing them to escape being quickly buried in sediment until later, if at all.
So there should be zero bird fossils, right? And what about bipedal dinosaurs? Shouldn't they have been able to sprint uphill away from the flood waters?

Just one more:

Many of the rock formations we now see today were, therefore, not formed from eroding solid rock over millions of years,​

Never been to the Grand Canyon, I take it? You can actually see the erosive processes going on, even though the Colorado River is a shadow of its former self. Went there about 20 years ago. Clearly saw an area where water had eroded away the 'base' of a rockface as it rounded a bend. The rockface above that had a visible fracture, leading from the area of resulting overhang (whatever geologists call it) up to surface. It has probably fallen off by now. Just downstream from that site, I saw the remains of a previous such event - a big slab of rock laid partially into the running water, having fallen off the cliff face. It was broken into several large pieces, with a bunch of smaller and smaller rocks all around it. The water was already running through the cracks, and on the downstream side, I could see mounds of smaller pieces forming a 'fan' outward from these cracks. Erosion in action, widening the GC as we speak.
But I digress...

but rather, softer sediment layers quickly eroded into the huge rock formations we see today, that have hardened over time.​

Right. Because of the 'little Grand Canyon'. Imagine 50-foot+ tall wet mud canyon walls just standing there for centuries as they lithify. What force holds up these multi-million ton walls of mud? Who can say, for such things have never been seen or inferred.

And this erosion was on a massive scale, because we know the earth went through environmental changes after the flood causing huge storms. The fossil record within the rock layers proves this to be the case.​

Does it? How so? You see what you did here? You engaged in the fallacy of begging the question.

I think that is enough. You presented some relatively uncontroversial 'scientific facts', then added all manner of unwarranted baggage and things that are definitely NOT scientific facts, but want us all to think that entire litany of gibberish consists of 'scientific facts.'

Not wasting my time breaking down the rest - and I suspect you are happy that I am not, for it shows how shallow and naïve you've been in presenting what you desperately need to be "facts", and are anything but.
 
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tas8831

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Creationists do not deny changes in DNA over time to produce long-term adaption to chronic conditions. That is why the Genetic Code is so complex and amazing. How was this Genetic Code designed to adapt in such amazing ways?
It isn't designed that way. It happens via a LOT of trial and error, resulting in a lot of dead things.
If you understood genetics above what CreationWiki tells you, you might understand this.
 
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tas8831

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Sedimentary rock is worldwide.
In just one layer, as would be seen in a flood? Yes, I know how particulates settle out, but the entire layer should all yield contemporaneous time estimates.
Over 6000 years ago.
The flood was 6000 years ago? Most sources say around 4500 years ago.
The sediment typically and naturally settles in many stratum [sic] of various mineral and organic origin. Some types of mineral and organic matter settle faster, and others more slowly. The sedimentary rock and sandstone is composed of the finest particle sizes, and nanoparticles.
Great! And these would have all been laid down at the same time, yes? Of course, all of the non-bivalves and such should have 'sorted out' by their hydrodynamic drag coefficients and density and all that, right?
Just like the particles? So shouldn't fossils be sorted by such factors as size and density? And if so, should not creatures like hippos/elephants and ceratopsians be found in contemporaneous strata?

Fossils are rarely formed today, because such quick burial of organisms under silt like stratum is hardly ever accomplished in our recorded history.
Citation please.
The layer of rock before the flood is practically fossil free because no quick burial took place.
What is the evidence for the flood? You cannot use what you are trying to support as evidence.
This amazing insight is ignored by evolutionists. They interpret the layers of rock as meaning thousands or hundreds of thousands of years per layer, and so assume the fossils within each layer are also hundreds of thousands, up to hundreds of millions of years old, depending on the stratum they are found in.
Can you demonstrate otherwise? I mean, with something other than mere citationless/evidence-less stories on a forum?
However, not only must creatures be buried quickly under various layers of stratum to form fossils, but the less mobile and less complex a life form is, that life form will be buried first, while the more mobile a life form is, the more likely it will avoid burial earlier on. And the more complex creatures float when dead, and so many do avoid being buried under earlier stages of sediment.
Yes, I demolished this gibberish in an earlier reply.
The more simple life forms sink to the bottom, and are less mobile, so these creatures are naturally buried first - under the lowest layers of stratum.
Just so stories are not scientific facts.
Evolutionists assume that, because the less mobile and simple life forms are found even in the lowest stratum, that they must have evolved first. Actually, the less mobile and simple creatures are buried first under the early stratum layers because they could not escape or had no inclination to escape, and they do not float in water, and they are usually far less mobile. And so, that is why such simple creatures are even found on the lowest stratums.
Creationists assume that evolutionists only use fossil data in their analyses.
But the evolutionists date the fossils according to stratum, and so, they date the less mobile and simple creatures as being 100’s of millions of years old.
It depends, really. If, however, a fossil is located in an undisturbed stratum beneath a datable layer of volcanic ash, then should one not conclude that the fossil is older than the ash?
However, that is not how the stratums [sic] were laid, as they were laid rather quickly – likely within a few years, as the flood waters receded off the face of the earth.
Begging the question fallacy.
This is proven by the fossils found within. lifeforms must be buried in sediment quickly to form fossils.
Non sequitur.
How quickly, and how do you know?
In addition, aquatic life is found in all layers because they live in abundance in water.
But not all in the mud, like bivalves. How are there non-contemporaneous strata each containing such fossils?
Some of these many aquatic creatures die off and so are buried in the lowest stratums,[sic] while others live on and escape, only to be buried in the higher layers of stratum.
Wait - so now you are saying that some sessile molluscs survived the flood of Noah? I thought they were all buried in situ?
A continuous stratum is your invention. That is a myth of your making. There is no such thing as a continuous stratum.
Not even post-world-wide flood? Hmmm... Maybe it wasn't world-wide after all...
softer sediment layers quickly eroded into the huge rock formations we see today
How quickly? What is the evidence for this?
You agreed that the sedimentary rock is found over the face of the earth. What do you think sedimentary rock was formed from? How about sediment.
Super clever! But I think you are misrepresenting me...
And since fossils are found throughout - aquatic life forms mixed with land creatures - that means the sediment was deposited rather quickly under anaerobic conditions, otherwise no fossils would be formed.
Just so stories are cool.
Can you provide an example of a fossil bed in which both bivalves and terrestrial critters were found?
We see these thousands of miles of coal beds and oil reserves throughout the world, on land, and in seas, and oceans. Oil is formed from algae, which has to be quickly covered by silt/sediment under anaerobic conditions under enormous pressure and heat to form oil. That is why they are called fossil fuels.
How does algae get buried quickly?
You keep making these grand assertions, yet when I provided you with a way to support your genetics claims, you chickened out, so why should anyone assume that you have actual supporting EVIDENCE for a word-wide flood caused by your deity?
This is common scientific knowledge. I thought you were so well versed on the subject. How is it you are not aware of how fossils fuels developed?
Wha? Cool how you answer with a non sequitur and use that to try to insult me!
Amazing creationist antics.
None of this is evidence for a world-wide flood 4500 years ago. In fact, none of this is actually "evidence."

You are telling stories and expecting everyone else to be as awed as you obviously were when someone told YOU these stories.

Also, this totally ignores the lack of bottleneck evidence in all living things.

Even though you agree that sedimentary rock covers the face of the earth, with fossils found all through these layers, from Aquatic to many forms of animal and plant life all mixed together, yet you refuse to acknowledge a worldwide flood.
Um, wow... I never said anything about "all mixed together:, and I also said nothing about the entire face of the earth being covered with sedimentary rock (certainly not as you mean it).
How is that possible? Are you so closed minded that you cannot even see reality?
How is it possible that you think stories are scientific facts, and that misrepresenting me helps your cause?
How else did all those life forms - from water and land all mixed together - get covered in many layers or sediment so quickly to form fossils?
Not all at once, that much is obvious.
Where did all the trillions of tons of algae come from that is found all across the world in the form of mammoth oil reserves spanning tens of thousands of square miles with an average depth of 6000 feet when many layers of sediment that quickly buried them?
1. It was more than just algae.
2. The largest known oil field is "280 km long and 40 km wide...and is estimated at approximately 100 meters in thickness".

I guess this is one of those arguments-from-awe-and-big-numbers? What of it?
Where did that huge amount of algae come from that?
Other algae.
How did they get buried under sediment so quickly
Yes - How DID floating, sometimes motile algae get "buried" at all? Oh - I know! When they die, they sink, and get "buried" by the usual processes by which anything really small gets 'buried.'

- many reserves in areas way inland on dry land?
Dry land NOW, yes. I thought you were so well-versed on these things?
Why do we find fossils of sea creatures even in layers of stratum on the highest mountains far inland?
Plate tectonics? Maybe you've heard of it?
So you see, evolutionists take facts and interpret them to according to their evolution theory.
And creationists take facts and interpret them according to their religious beliefs, even if their interpretations are laughable and counterfactual.
Creationists have a theory that most accurately accounts for all known facts.
Creationists do not deny facts.
Sure they do. Well, that or they misinterpret them, or they just think that a shallow, naïve story trumps actual evidence/data.

Like how you asserted that "God placed within each species genetic information which allows the different kinds of plants and animals God created to adapt in various situations and environment." but can only spin yarns about how that works when asked for evidence. You do not seem to understand what "evidence" is. You've IGNORED genetic evidence for evolution twice in the thread alone.
I suspect because you've yet to concoct some silly 'just so stories' to justify you dismissing it.
 
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tas8831

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If the genetic code was not designed, then there is no evidence to explain how the genetic code, and complex as it is, could have come into being.
You do not seem to understand what "the genetic code is."
I asked you about it before, and you ignored it. You seem to ignore things that you do not have some kind of archived retort for.

Please DEFINE 'genetic code'.

Please DEFINE 'genetic information.'
 
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tas8831

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I notice that once again, you're unable or unwilling to substantiate your claims.

You said, "we have many examples of evolutionists, and also creationists, who have not only hidden data, but also falsified data to bolster their theory, which they believe to be true, but can't find the evidence."

I asked, "Many examples? how many can you name?"

So, how many examples? do you have citations? references? links?

I have also asked him for examples, to no avail. Interesting...
 
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tas8831

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A canine is a kind.
A feline is a kind.

And so forth.
"Feline" is a Family within the Superorder Feliformia.

Just writing 'feline is a kind' might work at church, but if you are going to pretend to being a major debater, you'll have to be more precise.
 
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tas8831

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If you can show me evidence of one kind of creature turning into another kind of creature, then you have something in which to substantiate your theory.
Actually, I have this to substantiate my theory:



I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it.

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice


WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny


DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies


DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.


Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo


"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "



Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."​


You have wild extrapolations and creationwiki paraphrases.
 
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tas8831

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If you can show me evidence of one kind of creature turning into another kind of creature, then you have something in which to substantiate your theory.
If you can show me evidence of any Kind of creature being created ex nihilo by your preferred deity, have at it.
 
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