California Court Rules Against Homeschoolers

[LonesomeTexan]

There was no judicial activism here. You're anger should be with the congressmen of the 50's. For somebody who keeps talking about states rights you sure don't seem to be supported when states do something you disagree with. Where does the constitution say anything about a right to homeschool? (is it next to the separation of church and state?)

You characterization of public schools is kind of funny. I went to public schools. In fact my whole family did. We all turned out to be successful, moral, Christian men and women.

You are clearly romanticizing home school while demonizing public education.

The US public education system is a huge success and that is demonstratable by our economy, our innovation, and our success.

To characterize it in the way you are here is to demonstrate the absurdity you need to go to trying to make a point.

You don't seem to realize that most schools are run by and taught by Christian men and women and that millions of students each year leave public schools for successful careers and further education at more public schools.

It is those Christian men and women who you mischaracterizing. Perhaps it is not their morals who should be questioned.

to be completely honest, I think you are out of touch with the current state of public schools. to each his own.

 

[notto]

to be completely honest, I think you are out of touch with the current state of public schools. to each his own.

No. Not really. Can you provide the name of a unsafe, ineffective, and morally void public school in your area? What is their website?

I can't think of one in mine. I deal with kids that go to several different local schools and they are bright, adjusted students who have bright futures ahead of them in college.

I can see no evidence that schools are what you say they are. There may be a few exceptions but your description certainly is not the rule.

My church is full of people who work in public schools, teach in public schools, attend public schools, and who went to public schools. They don't seem to mention the things you do. Why is that?

Perhaps you should move to another part of the country. Maybe it is just the schools in your area that are unsafe, ineffective, and morally void.

 

[LonesomeTexan]

No. Not really. Can you provide the name of a unsafe, ineffective, and morally void public school in your area? What is their website?

I can't think of one in mine. I deal with kids that go to several different local schools and they are bright, adjusted students who have bright futures ahead of them in college.

I can see no evidence that schools are what you say they are. There may be a few exceptions but your description certainly is not the rule.

My church is full of people who work in public schools, teach in public schools, attend public schools, and who went to public schools. They don't seem to mention the things you do. Why is that?

Perhaps you should move to another part of the country. Maybe it is just the schools in your area that are unsafe, ineffective, and morally void.

so the fact that our kids are getting dumber and dumber and the increasing amounts of violence taking place in our public schools in recent years don't concern you at all? and teachers teaching to the test instead of promoting real learning doesn't bother you? I see public schools in the headlines all the time for terrible acts of immorality or violence. Is it just a coincidence that most of the violent school killing sprees have been public schools? it doesn't bother you that teachers are hooking up with students at increasing rates? it doesn't bother you that educrats are hamstringing real learning? or that homosexual is okay and natural? or that schools in Maine are handing out contraceptives to students?

 

[notto]

so the fact that our kids are getting dumber and dumber and the increasing amounts of violence taking place in our public schools in recent years don't concern you at all?

I'm not sure kids are getting dumber and dumber. I never said I wasn't concerned about violence in schools. I am simply pointing out that they are exceptions, not the rule. Is there a lot of violence in the schools in your area? What schools are those? Are there reports in your local paper we can look at?

and teachers teaching to the test instead of promoting real learning doesn't bother you?

Where did I say that? Again, an exception and certainly not the rule. Quit putting words in my mouth.

I see public schools in the headlines all the time for terrible acts of immorality or violence.

And I see stories about ministers molesting kids. Is that an exception or the rule?

Is it just a coincidence that most of the violent school killing sprees have been public schools? it doesn't bother you that teachers are hooking up with students at increasing rates? it doesn't bother you that educrats are hamstringing real learning?

Again, nothing but minor exceptions to the overwhelming number of successful schools and successful students.

By your logic, churches must be unsafe, ineffective, and morally void based on a few shootings, a few affairs, and a few molestations. Would you like to see the newspaper stories and the media reports on these unsafe, ineffective, and morally void churches? By your logic the military is unsafe, ineffective, and morally void as well. Care to see those stories?

You are really a slave to the media aren't you. You've been snowed by them and you don't even realize it.

 

[LonesomeTexan]

I'm not sure kids are getting dumber and dumber. I never said I wasn't concerned about violence in schools. I am simply pointing out that they are exceptions, not the rule. Is there a lot of violence in the schools in your area? What schools are those? Are there reports in your local paper we can look at?
Where did I say that? Again, an exception and certainly not the rule. Quit putting words in my mouth.

And I see stories about ministers molesting kids. Is that an exception or the rule?
Again, nothing but minor exceptions to the overwhelming number of successful schools and successful students.

By your logic, churches must be unsafe, ineffective, and morally void based on a few shootings, a few affairs, and a few molestations. Would you like to see the newspaper stories and the media reports on these unsafe, ineffective, and morally void churches? By your logic the military is unsafe, ineffective, and morally void as well. Care to see those stories?

You are really a slave to the media aren't you. You've been snowed by them and you don't even realize it.

as someone who went to public schools, I can attest to how morally void the environment is. the fault doesn't lie within public education itself. it lies in the fact that the school is required to take in dead beat kids that don't want to be there. another factor contributing to the moral void is the lack of parental involvement. parents just don't raise their kids right these days and they expect the schools to do it. sex, drugs, and alcohol were all things I had to endure in the public education environment. the learning environment is constantly out of order by disrespectful kids. it's a societal issue more than a public school issue. public school merely reflects these problems at a greater level than home/private schooling.

It is total BS that the state of California is forcing parents to put their children into terrible learning environments. the law in the books wasn't even being enforced until people got sick of the failing education system and started pulling their kids out of it. the educrats (backed by teachers unions couldn't let that happen), so some loser judge decided to start enforcing a stupid law.

 

[notto]

as someone who went to public schools, I can attest to how morally void the environment is. the fault doesn't lie within public education itself. it lies in the fact that the school is required to take in dead beat kids that don't want to be there. another factor contributing to the moral void is the lack of parental involvement. parents just don't raise their kids right these days and they expect the schools to do it. sex, drugs, and alcohol were all things I had to endure in the public education environment. the learning environment is constantly out of order by disrespectful kids. it's a societal issue more than a public school issue. public school merely reflects these problems at a greater level than home/private schooling.

It is total BS that the state of California is forcing parents to put their children into terrible learning environments. the law in the books wasn't even being enforced until people got sick of the failing education system and started pulling their kids out of it. the educrats (backed by teachers unions couldn't let that happen), so some loser judge decided to start enforcing a stupid law.

Well, states rights. What can you do.

Judges enforcing a law others find stupid? It's not like this is the first time for that. It's up the the legislature to remove the stupid law, not for the judge to not enforce it.

That would be against the constitution and an act of judicial activism which we all know is an assault on liberty.

As for your public school experience all I can say is that as with all your examples it is probably the exception, not the rule and private schools certainly are not immune from sex, drugs, violence, and the like. You are romanticizing the general experience based on your personal experience. There is no indication that the things you have said are tearing our public schools apart. There are thousands of fine you students learning more and more everyyear. Kids taking classes that 20 years ago were only available in college. Kids doing things with technology that 10 years ago would have been only available in high tech research labs. Kids learning more about the world around them from an entire internet of material compared to a few hundred books in a library.

You are overlooking the dozens of ways that schools are getting better every year and it is due to the 'educrats' that care deeply about the children in those schools that this is happening. Don't claim that majority of teachers, parents, and students are not concerned and involved with their public schools based on a few news stories about exceptions. That is why they are reported - because they are exceptions.

 

[LonesomeTexan]

Well, states rights. What can you do.

when the state thwarts the will of the people via crooked politicians, we have problems. the liberal elites in charge of this are nasty self centered people. I encourage the people of California to call BS on this.

 

[JohnElias]

when the state thwarts the will of the people via crooked politicians, we have problems. the liberal elites in charge of this are nasty self centered people. I encourage the people of California to call BS on this.

Haha... here's one Californian who's not calling BS. You're welcome to call Texan BS all you want, but you don't live in California. Maybe the state legislature will change this law, maybe they won't. But I applaud this judge on upholding judicial standards and avoiding judicial activism. I am also proud to live in the California Republic, bear flag and all.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

when the state thwarts the will of the people via crooked politicians, we have problems. the liberal elites in charge of this are nasty self centered people. I encourage the people of California to call BS on this.

It amuses me how whenever anything goes wrong anywhere, it's the fault of the "liberal elites" or the "liberal fascists". Your myopia would be disturbing if it wasn't so amusing.

 

[MachZer0]

Haha... here's one Californian who's not calling BS. You're welcome to call Texan BS all you want, but you don't live in California. Maybe the state legislature will change this law, maybe they won't. But I applaud this judge on upholding judicial standards and avoiding judicial activism. I am also proud to live in the California Republic, bear flag and all.

Actually, I pointed out where the judge didn't quite properly represent California law. The students in question were actuially enrolled in a qualifying private school, the school which claims they were not allowed to address the court during the case. The school has an attorney who will represent them in the appeal now.

 

[notto]

Actually, I pointed out where the judge didn't quite properly represent California law. The students in question were actuially enrolled in a qualifying private school, the school which claims they were not allowed to address the court during the case. The school has an attorney who will represent them in the appeal now.

No, you really didn't. The students were not attending the private school nor receiving instruction from the school so the things you cherrypicked really didn't apply. They were not receiving instruction from somebody who was licensed by the state or from an organiation approved by the state.

From the link you provided: (this situation does not match any viable choice from your own source. The judge represented the law correctly and upheld it as it is written)

Other than traditional public school classrooms, what choices are available for my child's education? California law explicitly recognizes four choices available to parents who wish to seek an educational setting other than a traditional public school classroom for their child:

1. A tutor who holds a current California teaching credential for the grade level being taught (EC 48224). The tutor must provide instruction:
   • In the English language
   • In all the branches of study required in the public schools
   • For at least 175 days per calendar year
   • For at least three hours a day between 8:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m.
   Because the tutor must provide instruction in all branches of study required in the public schools, the Multiple Subject Teaching Credential satisfies the credential requirement at all grade levels. The Single Subject Teaching Credential is not sufficient at any grade level. The Multiple Subject Teaching Credential is valid for kindergarten through grade twelve in self-contained classrooms, whereas the Single Subject Credential authorizes teaching a special subject only, such as math or English. Further credential information is available from the California Commission for Teacher Credentialing (Outside Source) Web site.
   
   The credentialed tutor may be the parent or any person employed by the parent. A tutor is not required to file the Private School Affidavit.
2. A private full-time day school or boarding school (EC 48222) where instruction is provided by "persons capable of teaching," that keeps an attendance register indicating clearly every absence of the pupil from school for a half day or more during each day the school is maintained during the year, and that provides instruction in the English language and all the branches of study required in California public schools. The Private School Affidavit must be filed annually by the private school.
3. Independent study through a public school district or county office of education (EC 51745 and following), where the student is enrolled in a school of the district and enters into a written agreement, prior to beginning independent study, that specifies the curriculum and methods of study, the arrangements for meeting with the teacher and submitting assignments, and other information. Independent study is an alternative to classroom instruction that is offered by many public school districts pursuant to EC sections 51745 and following. Independent study is not an exemption from public school attendance. Rather, it is an instructional strategy that allows students to carry on their public school education outside the classroom based on a written agreement. The agreement includes requirements consistent with the local school district's course of study. A certificated employee of the district is designated as the "supervising teacher," and this person makes the assignments, evaluates the student's work, and assigns grades.
   
   A child with exceptional needs may participate in independent study only if his or her individualized education program, developed pursuant to
   EC sections 56340 and following, provides for that participation (EC 51745(c)).
   
   If a student's school district does not offer independent study, parents are encouraged to contact their county office of education regarding the availability of independent study through the county or through other districts in their area. Contact your local school district or county office of education for more information.
4. Enrollment in a charter school organized in accordance with EC sections 47600 and following.
   
   A charter school is a public school, and it may provide instruction in any of grades
   kindergarten through twelve. A charter school is usually created or organized by a group of teachers, parent and community leaders or a community-based organization, and it is usually sponsored by an existing local public school board or county board of education. Specific goals and operating procedures for the charter school are detailed in an agreement (or "charter") between the sponsoring board and charter organizers.
   
   
   
   
   Is home schooling recognized in California as exempting a student from public school attendance? California statutes do not explicitly authorize home schooling. Whether a home schooled child is attending a private school, and therefore is exempt from public school attendance, is a decision made by local school districts and law enforcement authorities.

 

[MachZer0]

No, you really didn't. The students were not attending the private school nor receiving instruction from the school so the things you cherrypicked really didn't apply. They were not receiving instruction from somebody who was licensed by the state or from an organiation approved by the state.

From the link you provided: (this situation does not match any viable choice from your own source. The judge represented the law correctly and upheld it as it is written)

Other than traditional public school classrooms, what choices are available for my child's education? California law explicitly recognizes four choices available to parents who wish to seek an educational setting other than a traditional public school classroom for their child:

1. A tutor who holds a current California teaching credential for the grade level being taught (EC 48224). The tutor must provide instruction:
   • In the English language
   • In all the branches of study required in the public schools
   • For at least 175 days per calendar year
   • For at least three hours a day between 8:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m.
   Because the tutor must provide instruction in all branches of study required in the public schools, the Multiple Subject Teaching Credential satisfies the credential requirement at all grade levels. The Single Subject Teaching Credential is not sufficient at any grade level. The Multiple Subject Teaching Credential is valid for kindergarten through grade twelve in self-contained classrooms, whereas the Single Subject Credential authorizes teaching a special subject only, such as math or English. Further credential information is available from the California Commission for Teacher Credentialing (Outside Source) Web site.
   
   The credentialed tutor may be the parent or any person employed by the parent. A tutor is not required to file the Private School Affidavit.
2. A private full-time day school or boarding school (EC 48222) where instruction is provided by "persons capable of teaching," that keeps an attendance register indicating clearly every absence of the pupil from school for a half day or more during each day the school is maintained during the year, and that provides instruction in the English language and all the branches of study required in California public schools. The Private School Affidavit must be filed annually by the private school.
3. Independent study through a public school district or county office of education (EC 51745 and following), where the student is enrolled in a school of the district and enters into a written agreement, prior to beginning independent study, that specifies the curriculum and methods of study, the arrangements for meeting with the teacher and submitting assignments, and other information. Independent study is an alternative to classroom instruction that is offered by many public school districts pursuant to EC sections 51745 and following. Independent study is not an exemption from public school attendance. Rather, it is an instructional strategy that allows students to carry on their public school education outside the classroom based on a written agreement. The agreement includes requirements consistent with the local school district's course of study. A certificated employee of the district is designated as the "supervising teacher," and this person makes the assignments, evaluates the student's work, and assigns grades.
   
   A child with exceptional needs may participate in independent study only if his or her individualized education program, developed pursuant to
   EC sections 56340 and following, provides for that participation (EC 51745(c)).
   
   If a student's school district does not offer independent study, parents are encouraged to contact their county office of education regarding the availability of independent study through the county or through other districts in their area. Contact your local school district or county office of education for more information.
4. Enrollment in a charter school organized in accordance with EC sections 47600 and following.
   
   A charter school is a public school, and it may provide instruction in any of grades
   kindergarten through twelve. A charter school is usually created or organized by a group of teachers, parent and community leaders or a community-based organization, and it is usually sponsored by an existing local public school board or county board of education. Specific goals and operating procedures for the charter school are detailed in an agreement (or "charter") between the sponsoring board and charter organizers.
   
   
   
   
   Is home schooling recognized in California as exempting a student from public school attendance? California statutes do not explicitly authorize home schooling. Whether a home schooled child is attending a private school, and therefore is exempt from public school attendance, is a decision made by local school districts and law enforcement authorities.

And what is in dispute here is that the students were enrolled in an independent study program of a private school. A school by the way which has been in fuill compliance with state laws for 20 years and which was not afforded tthe opportunity to present its case to the court. That will now be done in the appeal thanks to Pacific Justice Institute which will represent the school

The parents of Rachel L. enrolled her in Sunland Christian School, a private home schooling program. In his opinion, Croskey, 75, described what he called the "ruse of enrolling [children] in a private school and then letting them stay home and be taught by a non-credentialed parent." Despite this statement by the Court, it should be noted that Sunland Christian School has been in full compliance with the requirements of the law for more than twenty years. "We've never been given an opportunity to represent our case in the Court of Appeal," said Terry Neven, the president of the school. "Consequently, we are excited that PJI will represent us before the California Supreme Court so that the rights of home schooling families are preserved," he stated further.

 

[notto]

And what is in dispute here is that the students were enrolled in an independent study program of a private school. A school by the way which has been in fuill compliance with state laws for 20 years and which was not afforded tthe opportunity to present its case to the court. That will now be done in the appeal thanks to Pacific Justice Institute which will represent the school

This school did not provide instruction to the child and the child was not attending the school so it does not match one of the 4 valid options. The judges ruling was correct based on the law and there is no judicial activism here.

 

[MachZer0]

This school did not provide instruction to the child and the child was not attending the school so it does not match one of the 4 valid options. The judges ruling was correct based on the law and there is no judicial activism here.

The law doesn't say specifically that the private school must be the one to provide the instruction nor does it say the child must attend the school. The private school in question here offers an independent study program just like the public schools and it supervise the study program on a quarterly basis.

 

[chaz345]

No. Not really. Can you provide the name of a unsafe, ineffective, and morally void public school in your area? What is their website?

I can't think of one in mine. I deal with kids that go to several different local schools and they are bright, adjusted students who have bright futures ahead of them in college.

I can see no evidence that schools are what you say they are. There may be a few exceptions but your description certainly is not the rule.

My church is full of people who work in public schools, teach in public schools, attend public schools, and who went to public schools. They don't seem to mention the things you do. Why is that?

Perhaps you should move to another part of the country. Maybe it is just the schools in your area that are unsafe, ineffective, and morally void.

Ok here's a question for you then. If public schools are so great then why do public school teachers have a much higher rate of sending their own kids to private schools than the general public?

Source:http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPorta...&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED485524

 

[LonesomeTexan]

Ok here's a question for you then. If public schools are so great then why do public school teachers have a much higher rate of sending their own kids to private schools than the general public?

Source:http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPorta...&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED485524

you can't confront liberals with facts. they still believe public schools are highly effective learning centers. reality has a conservative bias.

it's these same liberals who are advocated state run health care. scary stuff...

 

[Adivi]

you can't confront liberals with facts. they still believe public schools are highly effective learning centers. reality has a conservative bias.

it's these same liberals who are advocated state run health care. scary stuff...

I looked at that article and you know what I saw?
Peer-Reviewed:No
I generally trust non-peer-reviewed articles about as far as I can throw them.

 

[notto]

Ok here's a question for you then. If public schools are so great then why do public school teachers have a much higher rate of sending their own kids to private schools than the general public?

Source:http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPorta...&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED485524

I don't know why some teachers send their kids to private schools. Probably for the same reasons many others do. Might be religious. Might be that the students don't want to go where their parents work. Might be for sports or academic reasons. The study you reference only deals with large urban areas, not public schools in general and you'll notice that in nearly half of the cities in the study that teachers have a rate less than the general population so I question your generalization based on the study.

Not sure what you are trying to get at here but you are again pointing out exceptions, not the rule. This doesn't change the reality that most students in public school are bright and well educated.

 

[notto]

The law doesn't say specifically that the private school must be the one to provide the instruction nor does it say the child must attend the school. The private school in question here offers an independent study program just like the public schools and it supervise the study program on a quarterly basis.

A private full-time day school or boarding school (EC 48222) where instruction is provided by "persons capable of teaching,"

Independent study is not an exemption from public school attendance.

It is clear that the person capable of teaching (which you referenced) needs to be part of the full-time day school or boarding school.

Sorry Mach, you can't win this one. The source you cherrypicked from disagrees with you.

 

[Ringo84]

you can't confront liberals with facts. they still believe public schools are highly effective learning centers. reality has a conservative bias.

it's these same liberals who are advocated state run health care. scary stuff...

Funny, considering that we still have yet to find any fact within your posts. All we've seen thus far is unsubstantiated opinion.
Ringo