Illinois Judge Says 14th Amendment Bars Trump From 2024 Primary Ballot

Landon Caeli

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This wasn't the argument anyone (including you) in this thread was making.
The Supreme Court sidestepped the question "Did Donald Trump participate or provide aid to an insurrection?"
Instead they simply said its not up to the state officials to determine if Trump participated in an insurrection, it's upto the Congress.


What I'm confused about is what process Congress go through to determine if a person has participated in an insurrection?
We had the House who said that Trump did participate in an insurrection and they impeached him for it. The Senate decided not to remove him from office, some of those Republicans who voted against removing him, said that they voted No because, since he was no longer in office, they thought it was a matter for the law rather than Congress.
Congress controls the GOP though. And Congress has *already* allowed Trump to run... The decision was already made that he is clear.
 
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Hans Blaster

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And rightly so, because when the Republican or Democratic Parties *officially run* a candidate, that candidate has already been deemed qualified by the Federal government itself... All checks and balances completed - and no state has the authority to override the authority of the federal government.

(See previous post for reference)

What? The Federal government doesn't vet the party nominees for president. Not at all.
 
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stevil

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Congress controls the GOP though. And Congress has *already* allowed Trump to run... The decision was already made that he is clear.
Nothing is clear.

The Congress (at least some of them) are saying its upto the courts, and the courts are now saying its upto the congress.
Both pointing away from themselves and at the other branch. So we have no one, willing to put their hand up and just do it (make a determination)
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Landon Caeli

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What? The Federal government doesn't vet the party nominees for president. Not at all.
It does, because the GOP is an institution governed by the Federal government. It's been a government institution since 1907.
 
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rambot

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It does, because the GOP is an institution governed by the Federal govgovernment. It's been a government institution since 1907.
wwwwwhat?
One particular party is a "government institution"? That doesn't seem correct. I can say that isn't hte case in Canada....at ALL.
 
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stevil

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With it being a congress decision rather than a court, it becomes a point in time popularity thing rather than a forward thinking legal precedent thing.
Unfortunately the Senate already ruled on the question as to whether D Trump participated in an insurrection. For their trial they opted to not allow evidence or witnesses and some of them decided to vote No because with D Trump no longer being in office they thought they would leave it upto the courts to determine. Their No vote didn't mean they thought he was innocent, it just meant they were passing the buck to the justice system.

Now the Justice system has passed the buck back to them.
 
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Landon Caeli

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wwwwwhat?
One particular party is a "government institution"? That doesn't seem correct. I can say that isn't hte case in Canada....at ALL.
The two main parties are both public government institutions. They're not private.

...States are limited in how much they can tamper with these parties. At a point, it becomes a Federal issue, since that's the plane these parties truly exist on.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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wwwwwhat?
One particular party is a "government institution"? That doesn't seem correct. I can say that isn't hte case in Canada....at ALL.
Actually, both of the two major parties are at least somewhat a government institution (or at least a State Actor)


...as they have the authority to create the rules for and facilitate the official presidential debates. (Which is a level of power the other political parties don't get to exercise)

They're also delegated other certain public responsibilities as well

 
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Landon Caeli

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Actually, both of the two major parties are at least somewhat a government institution (or at least a State Actor)


...as they have the authority to create the rules for and facilitate the official presidential debates. (Which is a level of power the other political parties don't get to exercise)

They're also delegated other certain public responsibilities as well

I think it's similar to how the Federal Reserve is a bank, like other banks, but it's a specially protected, and specially operated bank.

...Likewise, the two main parties are "special" too.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Imagine Colorado saying they'll no longer honor the US dollar, because the Federal Reserve has a chairperson, or a policy they find unacceptable. There too, the feds would step in.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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With it being a congress decision rather than a court, it becomes a point in time popularity thing rather than a forward thinking legal precedent thing.
Unfortunately the Senate already ruled on the question as to whether D Trump participated in an insurrection. For their trial they opted to not allow evidence or witnesses and some of them decided to vote No because with D Trump no longer being in office they thought they would leave it upto the courts to determine. Their No vote didn't mean they thought he was innocent, it just meant they were passing the buck to the justice system.

Now the Justice system has passed the buck back to them.
What do you mean by "becomes a popularity thing"? Let's be honest, it was already a popularity thing before it made it to SCOTUS. If you survey a bunch of legal analysts and low-level judges, and 90% on one side say yes, and 90% on the other side say no...it's already in that partisan popularity realm.


And it seems like the SCOTUS ruling did establish a precedent.


Per CNN:
In a repudiation of the notion that Trump’s actions left him ineligible under the 14th Amendment’s “insurrectionist ban,” a unanimous court ruled that an individual state could not dump the former president from the ballot.

States do not have the power to remove a federal candidate from the ballot under the Constitution’s “insurrectionist ban.” It is Congress, the court wrote, that can enforce the provision, not states.



So the Supreme Court didn't pass the buck... with regards to the creation of new laws and/or creation of enforcement mechanisms and requirements, that's not their job. That would fall to congress for the former, and and combination of congress and the executive branch for the latter.

Saying "passed the buck" would imply that that SCOTUS neglected some sort of task that should be in their wheelhouse.

It wasn't their job to determine whether or not Trump committed insurrection (if it was, I suspect the 3 left-leaning justices would've likely gone the other way). It was simply their job to determine whether or not a lower individual court has ability to unilaterally remove a candidate from a ballot under the given circumstances.


If you want them to decide whether or not his actions constituted insurrection, there is a mechanism for that. Officially charge him with that in a federal court, convict him, and then when it gets ran up the appellate chain and makes it to SCOTUS, we'd have our answer.

Like I touched on before, that's why charge/convict is stronger than ad-hoc "yeah, I think it he did it" (absent an official charge). The more abstract and diluted the approach, the more narrow the higher court's scope of consideration is going to be. And that consideration is going to be almost purely in the realm of procedure rather than the actual infraction being debated. ...as, after all, the Supreme court can't really deliberate over the merits of something that he was never officially charged with.


This should be a good lesson to partisan activists on either side. Trying to take shortcuts rarely pays off.
 
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Hans Blaster

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It does, because the GOP is an institution governed by the Federal government. It's been a government institution since 1907.

The GOP is a political party. Parties are not "governed" by the Federal government, nor is it a "government institution". (Where are you getting that 1907 date? It sounds like something specific to your misunderstanding.)
 
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Nothing is clear.

The Congress (at least some of them) are saying its upto the courts, and the courts are now saying its upto the congress.
Both pointing away from themselves and at the other branch. So we have no one, willing to put their hand up and just do it (make a determination)
Any nation that relies solely on its courts to rule correctly in order to govern effectively, deserves whatever decision is handed down.
 
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JSRG

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Fair point.

It's quite weird actually. I would think anyone that has engaged in an insurrection should be disqualified, even if they haven't sworn an oath.

You need to remember the context: The Civil War had just happened. If you disqualified everyone who engaged in insurrection from essentially every state or federal office, then you're going to actually have trouble finding people in the Confederate states to hold those offices because so many would be disqualified. Limiting it to those "having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States" solved that issue while also keeping out of office those viewed as the most guilty, i.e. the explicit oath breakers.
 
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The Court did rule on the "insurrection" part.
The Court said that Congress had the power to decide all matter dealing with insurrection.
It is not the parties or the Courts. It is Congress.
Kavanaugh noted that particularly.
So Congress has not declared an insurrection nor has it banned anyone from office for taking part in an insurrection.
There was a Declaration of Insurrection by Congress during the Civil War.
Insurrection is a war and that is a Congressional Power, not the Court, not the President.
 
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stevil

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What do you mean by "becomes a popularity thing"? Let's be honest,
Politicians doing the impeachment process are not bound to anything tangible. They are supposed to look for "high crimes and misdameanors" but they don't have to. They simply take a vote, based on whatever they want. As long as they have the numbers in the vote then voila you have an impeachment.

They are not tied to the constitution or to law, they don't need evidence and they don't need witnesses. All they need are the vote numbers.

So, a president could pick up a gun and shoot the VP as he is counting the electoral votes. He could then declare himself the winner. If an attempt is made to impeach him, all you need is to have his own party vote not to impeach him, and if they have the numbers, then he doesn't get impeached.

The situation for a congressmen is very different for a judge. A congressman is concerned about his next election and maintaining his position in office. If he has a movement of people who will do whatever that president tells them to do. e.g. not vote for that congressman, then that congressman knows he must kowtow to that president's whims otherwise he will lose his job and career as he will be voted out in the next election.

The judge however, isn't up for election and is entirely focussed on setting precedent which will hold for decades to come. Setting a rule that abides by the law, and the constitution and will not be reversed on appeal.

it was already a popularity thing before it made it to SCOTUS.
No it's not. A judge and a Supreme Court made a judgement based on law and constitution.
If you survey a bunch of legal analysts and low-level judges, and 90% on one side say yes, and 90% on the other side say no...it's already in that partisan popularity realm.
No, the judge doesn't go to the polls in order to make a determination.
And it seems like the SCOTUS ruling did establish a precedent.


Per CNN:
In a repudiation of the notion that Trump’s actions left him ineligible under the 14th Amendment’s “insurrectionist ban,” a unanimous court ruled that an individual state could not dump the former president from the ballot.

States do not have the power to remove a federal candidate from the ballot under the Constitution’s “insurrectionist ban.” It is Congress, the court wrote, that can enforce the provision, not states.
Yes, that's what they said.
They didn't say the mechanism that Congress are to go through to make the determination though.

So the Supreme Court didn't pass the buck...
Yes they did. They didn't make a determination as to whether D Trump engaged or provided comfort to an insurrection
with regards to the creation of new laws and/or creation of enforcement mechanisms and requirements, that's not their job.
Noone is asking for a new law, just upholding a current law, a current clause in the constitution.
That would fall to congress for the former, and and combination of congress and the executive branch for the latter.
That is not what the Supreme Court ruling has said. They aren't asking congress to create any new laws.
Saying "passed the buck" would imply that that SCOTUS neglected some sort of task that should be in their wheelhouse.
SC pointed to Congress and said they are the ones responsible for determining if D Trump engaged in an insurrection.
But previously some members of the Senate said
it was upto the courts to determine if D Trump engaged in an insurrection.

So we have two of the executive branches pointing away from themselves and towards each other, neither one willing to make a determination. WEAK!
It wasn't their job to determine whether or not Trump committed insurrection
This is what courts do. It is their job to make rulings on whether people committed crimes.
If you want them to decide whether or not his actions constituted insurrection, there is a mechanism for that. Officially charge him with that in a federal court, convict him, and then when it gets ran up the appellate chain and makes it to SCOTUS, we'd have our answer.
Nope this is not what the Supreme Court said.

It seems, even if D Trump was found guilty of seditious conspiracy in court, the individual states would still not be able to remove D Trump from the ballot. Even though the Constitution says they must.
What the Supreme Court have said is that Congress must be the ones to decide, not the courts. So this means is just comes up in a vote, and Trump's party can simply vote without evidence, without witnesses on whether they want D Trump to be on the ballot or not.
 
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