Discussion Cakes,lawsuits,and a Holy Spirit filled life.

[Father Rick]

Refusing to bake a cake for an event you disagree with morally is not the same as refusing to give a homeless person bread because of them being gay. One is a way to not conform to this world, while the second is disobeying the commands of God.

I'm sure many cake bakers wouldn't want to bake a cake for a conference supporting alcoholism either. Somehow I don't think people would have as big of a reaction too someone refusing business for an event like that.

I think it comes down to the intentions of the cake bakers. My feelings on the matter are based on the assumption that they are more than willing to bake cakes in general for the couple, but are not willing to bake a cake for any gay wedding or other event that supports something against their morals.

A4C...
The problems (and the $135,000 penalty the couple was charged.. note: NOT a judgment from a lawsuit, the couple didn't sue them) was NOT for simply refusing to bake a wedding cake... it was for "discrimination and harassment".

To reiterate fact from this case again.
The couple (who were regular customers) asked for a wedding cake.
The bakery refused based on their religious beliefs.
The couple complained to the appropriate agency ( I believe it was the Board of Labor or something to that effect), which is what you do when there is a minor dispute with a business.

At this point, IMO, no one has done anything "wrong". There's just a difference of opinion based on two different sets of beliefs. With the other case, when things reached this stage, the bakery stopped baking wedding cakes for everyone (but continued baking other cakes for everyone)... problem resolved... no one is discriminated against... no one violates their religious convictions.

However... the bakers in this case didn't do the same. They posted the couple's personal information on social media (including home address, etc) causing the couple to be harassed, etc. When the authorities required the bakers to remove the couple's information and stop encouraging discrimination, the bakers refused.

I think the bakers actions make their intentions clear. They were not simply refusing to do something against their convictions. IMO, their behavior in harassing the couple who filed a complaint against them was not Christ-like in any way. Just because someone claims they are doing something "because they are a Christian" doesn't mean it's the right thing.

 

[All4Christ]

A4C...
The problems (and the $135,000 penalty the couple was charged.. note: NOT a judgment from a lawsuit, the couple didn't sue them) was NOT for simply refusing to bake a wedding cake... it was for "discrimination and harassment".

To reiterate fact from this case again.
The couple (who were regular customers) asked for a wedding cake.
The bakery refused based on their religious beliefs.
The couple complained to the appropriate agency ( I believe it was the Board of Labor or something to that effect), which is what you do when there is a minor dispute with a business.

At this point, IMO, no one has done anything "wrong". There's just a difference of opinion based on two different sets of beliefs. With the other case, when things reached this stage, the bakery stopped baking wedding cakes for everyone (but continued baking other cakes for everyone)... problem resolved... no one is discriminated against... no one violates their religious convictions.

However... the bakers in this case didn't do the same. They posted the couple's personal information on social media (including home address, etc) causing the couple to be harassed, etc. When the authorities required the bakers to remove the couple's information and stop encouraging discrimination, the bakers refused.

I think the bakers actions make their intentions clear. They were not simply refusing to do something against their convictions. IMO, their behavior in harassing the couple who filed a complaint against them was not Christ-like in any way. Just because someone claims they are doing something "because they are a Christian" doesn't mean it's the right thing.

If that was the case with both sets of bakers, then I agree. I was under the impression that one set of bakers just refused to bake the cake. The second set who posted the social information was well beyond the correct path of a Christian witness.

EDIT: I read your post again and want to clarify that my statements were regarding the bakers that only refused to bake the cake. I missed the sentence about distinguishing between the two sets of bakers.

However, this thread was opened regarding both sets of bakers, not just the one with the lawsuit.

 

[Father Rick]

If that was the case with both sets of bakers, then I agree. I was under the impression that one set of bakers just refused to bake the cake. The second set who posted the social information was well beyond the correct path of a Christian witness.

EDIT: I read your post again and want to clarify that my statements were regarding the bakers that only refused to bake the cake. I missed the sentence about distinguishing between the two sets of bakers.

However, this thread was opened regarding both sets of bakers, not just the one with the lawsuit.

Right....
Unfortunately, with the media (including the "Christian" media) just giving quick soundbites of the various events/cases it's really easy to miss important parts of what happened. And unfortunately, many of the "Christian" media (and I put Christian in quotes, because, IMO when you're not telling the full story and/or slanting things to just prove your point then you're not acting very Christian) have done more fear-mongering than anything else.

I quoted this passage earlier, but... Jesus said to be "wise as a serpent, but gentle as a dove"...

For someone who is both a Christian... and an American citizen... there are 2 different sets of authorities to which the person must submit. Since scripture teaches to obey the laws of the land as long as the 2 are not contradictory, then there should be no issues... even though there may be things that aren't liked.

The law in the USA is that you can't discriminate against someone based on race, gender, etc... including sexual orientation in most places. That doesn't mean that a person has to agree... just that they can't discriminate. And there ARE ways in which a person who genuinely believes that homosexual activity should not be supported can maintain their convictions without discriminating. The bakery that stopped baking ALL wedding cakes is an example of how to do that. They are still in business (as far as I know)... and are continuing to bake cakes for all kinds of other occasions. And... I would assume that they are trusting God to honor/bless them for standing up for their convictions.

IMO, that is a wise way for them to both obey the law and maintain their religious convictions... no different from a Jewish deli choosing not to sell ham and cheese sandwiches. (Note: we're talking about for-profit businesses here, not a religious organization). Quite frankly, they don't even have to say/explain anything... they can just remove wedding cakes from their menu and they're done. No discrimination. No harassment. No violation of conscience.

I think the problem is that many Christians, particularly in America where Christianity HAS been the majority for so long, feel entitled. So when there is ever a situation where there is a conflict based on religious/faith issues and the Christian doesn't get their way suddenly it's "persecution", when in fact it's no where close to that. It's simply requiring the Christian to "do unto others (who aren't Christian) as you would have them do unto you" which does require a bit of humility and self-sacrifice from time to time.

 

[Gideons300]

Alithis, this could possibly be one of the worst statements that I have ever seen on this forum - in my opinion, it is nothing less than shameful.

You are a good friend Bib, and so is Michael. If understood correctly, and in the spirit with which I know Michael made it, I think it is most true. There is a teaching circulating that the church will arise and take rightful dominion. I think in essence, that is what is being referred to when discussing the church and change.

Consider the world when the church was birthed. Evil Rome ruled with an iron fist. Israel was oppreseed and occupied. The newly birthed church teemed with life, and joy filled...and very changed.... new believers lost their citizenship to this world and became citizens of a country to come. Our task, at its most basic level, is to let the creator rule inside us so that we shine so brightly that those in the world, lost in darkness, may behold the light of God inside us, and be drawn to that light.

The world will wax worse and worse, and the coming judgment is sure. By the way we live, by how we are entertained, how we spend our money, what we make our treasure, our lives are to testify to the truth of Jesus Christ. To try to change the world from the outside in has been the exact same technique we have been taught to try to change us. We think we will become holy by overcoming one sin after another, until eventually, in a thousand lifetimes, perhaps our core of who we are will be spotless. It has not worked for us, and it is not the path we are called to in our interactions with the world as His body.

It is not to be in the world system, and it is not to be with us. The change must be that darkness becomes light. If we still have darkness in us, the best we can hope for is change that will be contaminated as well. We cannot legislate goodness into peoples hearts. It will not happen.

But we CAN, if we will but hunger and thirst..... and ASK, that God will change us...our view of things. We can pray that our God awaken us, so that He can change our core nature to one of purity and light. All of creation is viewing us now, all the angels, all the saints of ages past in the church, cheering us on, assured that God WILL awaken us and cause us to walk as He always intended.as sons and daughters in His own household, as joy filled obedient totally adored children of God. May that day come quickly.

I love you both,

Gids

 

[Alithis]

Refusing to bake a cake for an event you disagree with morally is not the same as refusing to give a homeless person bread because of them being gay. One is a way to not conform to this world, while the second is disobeying the commands of God.

I'm sure many cake bakers wouldn't want to bake a cake for a conference supporting alcoholism either. Somehow I don't think people would have as big of a reaction too someone refusing business for an event like that.

I think it comes down to the intentions of the cake bakers. My feelings on the matter are based on the assumption that they are more than willing to bake cakes in general for the couple, but are not willing to bake a cake for any gay wedding or other event that supports something against their morals.

problem is the very act of refusal set up a contradicting double standard ..one for other sins and one for this sin.. thats not love its carnal reasoned judgment . we are not here to judge the world for we are the world but saved by Gods grace . no one is saved by his judgement ..but rather by his grace we are delivered from his judgment .
we need to learn yet again from these errors .
whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap .. thats in the hands of the lord .. make the cake and preach the good news in Love . we are not better then another .. only saved and desiring they be saved to

some here have expressed a desire to see them burn.. there is no love of God in that .ours is only to desire they be saved from that perfect and righteous judgment which was laid upon the Lord Jesus. that who so ever ...believes might be saved .. not whoever we deem good enough .

 

[Alithis]

That’s good, I like that, and it seems that we are essentially all on the same path with this.


I like this as well, where the two bakers undoubtedly agree where I’m sure that they did not attempt to force the sodomites to change their ways; we can hardly deem a refusal to provide a certain product or service as being necessarily seen as an attempt to “force a change” on anyone.


It could be that this was the same attitude the Corinthians had toward the man who married his fathers wife; where Paul chastised the Corinthians for not casting him out of the church. Paul's position was that by not doing so, that the individual would suffer eternal judgment, but by being 'harsh' where they should have thrown him out earlier he would have had a father greater chance of repenting.

For that matter, why would you suggest that the bakers had rebuked the homosexuals, again, a refusal to provide a service or product was simply a moral decision as they felt that they could not be seen to support wicked behaviour.


When it comes to 'freedom for all' the Revolutionary War had little to with such high ideals as it was a backward step when compared to British Law. If the first Civil War (1776) was nothing more than an attempt by the US Founding Fathers to maintain their slaves in lieu of the court decision by the British in 1772 that slavery had no part in British Law (or the Magna Carta), then the Masonic founders of the US may have possibly pulled a ruse where their Constitution was devised to provide a catalyst for Revolution which served only a few business leaders.

But, even if the Declaration of Independence was a ruse in that it was merely an attempt to uphold slavery, it was still written in a way that people of goodwill who were prepared to stand up could indeed introduce change which is what these two fine Christian bakers have done.


Do you mean “civil disobedience”, if so then I think that Gandhi and the millions of Indians who sought and won their independence from Britain would disagree.

-in the matter of ghandi.. it saved no souls .thus spiritually fruitless .
-in the case of the corinthian church..it was a matter WITHIN the church -fully subject to the judgment of the church .thus a very different topic .

 

[Aldebaran]

The church is not an agent of change.it is not even of this world .
The world is destined for destruction by fire.
The churches mission is to love and share the good news.
When the church runs around trying to change the world.. Its gone outside its mission.
The world wlill not change .but the lost within it can be saved.

Do you have any idea what you're saying here? You think the church's mission is to share the good news--but to what end, other than to create a change in the world? You talk as if we're supposed to just love and share the good news for no reason and to no effect. But the fact is that the good news IS effective, and the effect is to happen in this world. Christ died for the world for a reason. The church is what was rescued out of the world by the object of the good news. Do you really believe we are to not have an influence that creates change in the world???

 

[Alithis]

Do you have any idea what you're saying here? You think the church's mission is to share the good news--but to what end, other than to create a change in the world? You talk as if we're supposed to just love and share the good news for no reason and to no effect. But the fact is that the good news IS effective, and the effect is to happen in this world. Christ died for the world for a reason. The church is what was rescued out of the world by the object of the good news. Do you really believe we are to not have an influence that creates change in the world???

now settle on down go back and read all the posts and you'll find it covered quite well .

 

[Aldebaran]

now settle on down go back and read all the posts and you'll find it covered quite well .

I did. There weren't many. I wrote a post in #109, and you responded in the next post (#110). I'm now replying to what you said.

So, why not reply to what I just asked you? Do you really believe we are to not have an influence that creates change in the world?

 

[beaverpond]

I am coming into this late in the game and have read many of the posts, but not all of them. I believe that a business should have the right to deny service if it goes against their faith with no repercussions from the state or federal government.

Now think about this for a moment...

Family / Marriage...we have seen how state and federal courts and governments have been defining what was originally defined by God.

Government...again man has changed what was originally defined by God, example dictatorships, republics, democracies ...

The Church...how long until man tries to change how this is defined what God defined so long ago.

I bring this up because of how many businesses have been isolated for how they believe and how so many radicals are trying to shut them down for how they believe.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I am coming into this late in the game and have read many of the posts, but not all of them. I believe that a business should have the right to deny service if it goes against their faith with no repercussions from the state or federal government.

Now think about this for a moment...

Family / Marriage...we have seen how state and federal courts and governments have been defining what was originally defined by God.

Government...again man has changed what was originally defined by God, example dictatorships, republics, democracies ...

The Church...how long until man tries to change how this is defined what God defined so long ago.

I bring this up because of how many businesses have been isolated for how they believe and how so many radicals are trying to shut them down for how they believe.

There is a man currently suing some Bible publishers over anti gay scriptures

http://www.christianpost.com/news/g...ible-publishers-over-homosexual-verses-33219/

 

[Alithis]

maybe that is your job but it isn't everyone else' s job, we all have jobs he asks us to do .. please go save them if that is your job. It is not everyone's job to live in sodom ... it wasn't ever anyone's job to live in sodom and the only fool who did lost his whole family. please if you have children be careful with your family!

haha did you really post that ? for real.. ? "them" you used the term "them" .. that is bias displayed openly ..and you implied im fool doing what the lord tells us to do .. "preach the gospel to "ALL" .... "
funny thing but "ALL" is rather inclusive don't you think ?

 

[Alithis]

I did. There weren't many. I wrote a post in #109, and you responded in the next post (#110). I'm now replying to what you said.

So, why not reply to what I just asked you? Do you really believe we are to not have an influence that creates change in the world?

siiiigh ...to be so repetitive ..

I dont run into any problems(with what i stated earlier) because im not saying that we ..via love and the Gospel do not effect change . we certainly do .for the gospel believed and received affects eternal change in the individual . that individual then joins the kingdom of God ..forsaking "the world" goes out and perpetuates that same love .
but this effectual change is resultant of the Gospel.
we are not called to force that change on the unbeliever ..only to love them both in word and deed and deliver the message . for the "good news" is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes it .
we seek to share the gospel ... the truth that it effects a change for the eternal betterment of the receiver preparing them for the eternal (not worldly )kingdom of God (which is within firstly ) is resultant .
but it is the message we are commissioned to share .. being salt is the result .

we don't accomplish anything by shaking our finger in that face of a man who beat and robbed some one.. but we accomplish much by loving and aiding whom he beat ..to the muggers shame . and one day when he is the one beaten we also love and aid him .. love has no bias .

and we have been here before on this topic ..america was founded invasion followed by rebellion ,then on carnal intellectual well intended principles which laid the foundation for so called "rights" that have led to the passing of the present laws against God -yet another very large example that when we act based upon the carnal reasoning of the flesh .. we do not accomplish the will of God .Because that which is born of the Spirit is Spiritual and that which is of the flesh is flesh .

we simply cannot oppose the world using the world methodology .we have lost already the moment we began to do so.

 

[Alithis]

I am coming into this late in the game and have read many of the posts, but not all of them. I believe that a business should have the right to deny service if it goes against their faith with no repercussions from the state or federal government.

Now think about this for a moment...

Family / Marriage...we have seen how state and federal courts and governments have been defining what was originally defined by God.

Government...again man has changed what was originally defined by God, example dictatorships, republics, democracies ...

The Church...how long until man tries to change how this is defined what God defined so long ago.

I bring this up because of how many businesses have been isolated for how they believe and how so many radicals are trying to shut them down for how they believe.

a business should have that right .. but does not always in many countries .but we are not of this world " our law is the law of LOve and the law of the Spirit of life in Christ JEsus

 

[MEK]

What if it had not been a cake - which was going to be used to celebrate something which is manifestly against God's order (that is not judging, it is believing the Bible). What if the couple were buying a gun and the owner knew they were going to kill someone with it - is he obliged to sell them the gun because he should not judge what the sin they were going to commit with it? I think it is easy to play down the importance of the stand the bakers made because the object they were selling is more trivial. Sin is sin - if we are not able to take a stand on small things, then it follows we cannot take a stand on bigger things - but each is sin in God's eyes - I think this "do not judge" can be abused in the encouragement of complacency. "Evil flourishes when good men do nothing" is still true today. We see it all around us. To be complicit with sin by going along with it is just to create more sin.

 

[Chicken Little]

haha did you really post that ? for real.. ? "them" you used the term "them" .. that is bias displayed openly ..and you implied im fool doing what the lord tells us to do .. "preach the gospel to "ALL" .... "
funny thing but "ALL" is rather inclusive don't you think ?

he gave some to be.. evangelists teachers etc are you saying that everyone who isn't a evangelist dragging sinners against their will to church , is in sin? is that what you are saying? .
In the mean time your goofy theories of a very big mouth body with only one functioning part or organ . that doesn't take care for the young.
so maybe you just don't know him at all , or you want the young vulnerable to the wolves , you know it does attract certain kind of people to the pews I have noticed.. it is not like there is a shortage of them in the church . oh yes the church is a true daughter of her mother. .
is that why you don't have your 12 that are real believers that can really effect this world like jesus and his disples did ? from these worly you are so concerned with? because no one trusts you is that why ? maybe is it you just want to fill the pews with half baked and the unrepentant that haven't changed anything and couldn't change because you don't think they have too . good luck with that.
in the mean time I'm waiting for your twelve because you have a floor plan and it is him and his disciples . so you have to make it walk and talk, heal it and grow it . i'm too busy doing my part of the body which isn't evangelism by the way . because I really don't believe in evangelism like they do it today. I really don't ! you know there is just only so many Billy Grahams needed in this world the fly over kind of thing... what is needed more is those who can love people through to the other side of their sin and protect " those that are with young" from them , it is called discipleship. but they all have to know sin is sin.. . because his body sure doesn't need anymore half baked cakes and with all their theories. so hey you got the vision so get your twelve and go out and change the world the same way Jesus did it . man it needs it bad. I'll pray for for you to get real conversions by doing all those things Jesus says will follow those who really believe in him.
over and out.

 

[Alithis]

What if it had not been a cake - which was going to be used to celebrate something which is manifestly against God's order (that is not judging, it is believing the Bible). What if the couple were buying a gun and the owner knew they were going to kill someone with it - is he obliged to sell them the gun because he should not judge what the sin they were going to commit with it? I think it is easy to play down the importance of the stand the bakers made because the object they were selling is more trivial. Sin is sin - if we are not able to take a stand on small things, then it follows we cannot take a stand on bigger things - but each is sin in God's eyes - I think this "do not judge" can be abused in the encouragement of complacency. "Evil flourishes when good men do nothing" is still true today. We see it all around us. To be complicit with sin by going along with it is just to create more sin.

that's a nice saying ,but evil flourishes when the hearts of men prefer it .
and the analogy is a bit silly . how may people walking a life in the holy Spirit do you know that own a gunshop?

 

[Biblicist]

Let's forget about a few cakes, how about something a bit more complicated:

Two Christian garage owners had a massive sign outside of their service centre that said "Last petrol for 500 Kilometres" when a busload of people gratefully dropped in where they said that they were down to their last litre of petrol. The first Christian said, "That's good news, we're more than happy to be of service, by the way, where are you going". The group responded with "Where going to vote to legalise homosexuality and where it can be taught to pre-schoolers; if we can get there in time then then we will have enough votes to push the legislation through".

The Christian couple looked at each other and then turned to the group saying "Sorry, we cannot serve you any petrol!" Even though their decision will undoubtedly help to strengthen their society along with maybe who knows how many hundreds being saved from this horrible scourge, would they be right in doing so - do they allow evil to flourish or do they make a stand?

 

[Alithis]

Let's forget about a few cakes, how about something a bit more complicated:

Two Christian garage owners had a massive sign outside of their service centre that said "Last petrol for 500 Kilometres" when a busload of people gratefully dropped in where they said that they were down to their last litre of petrol. The first Christian said, "That's good news, we're more than happy to be of service, by the way, where are you going". The group responded with "Where going to vote to legalise homosexuality and where it can be taught to pre-schoolers; if we can get there in time then then we will have enough votes to push the legislation through".

The Christian couple looked at each other and then turned to the group saying "Sorry, we cannot serve you any petrol!" Even though their decision will undoubtedly help to strengthen their society along with maybe who knows how many hundreds being saved from this horrible scourge, would they be right in doing so - do they allow evil to flourish or do they make a stand?

they preach the gospel, sell them the petrol.. then "pray" the will of God be done on earth as it is in heaven in faith that he is able to do so .Then they pray as the Holy Spirit guides them .because the carnal mind cannot comprehend the things of the Holy Spirit or his workings in the hearts of men .

 

[Biblicist]

they preach the gospel, sell them the petrol.. then "pray" the will of God be done on earth as it is in heaven in faith that he is able to do so .Then they pray as the Holy Spirit guides them .because the carnal mind cannot comprehend the things of the Holy Spirit or his workings in the hearts of men .

At this point of time I'm not even sure which pathway I would take and I'm the one who posed this modified question.

So if the Holy Spirit can "guide them" with regard to prayer, where I'm not so sure this could ever occur outside of praying in tongues; but if the Spirit could lead somone to pray in a certain direction, this means that he could also give them direction to refuse to supply petrol or to provide them with petrol.