Discussion Cakes,lawsuits,and a Holy Spirit filled life.

[Alithis]

You say that the Lord knows the heart, yet you then go on to condemn us for what you think is in our hearts.

oh here we go ..siigh . false accusations come on get honest .
this comes up every time .it is self defensive . its more concerned with looking right your SELF .

ask your self in the name of the lord Jesus .. do you love the soul of a gay man enough to lay down your life to save him..? or do you secretly despise him? judge your own heart .that's not for me and i don't claim to do so .

 

[Aldebaran]

oh here we go ..siigh . false accusations come on get honest .
this comes up every time .it is self defensive . its more concerned with looking right your SELF .

ask your self in the name of the lord Jesus .. do you love the soul of a gay man enough to lay down your life to save him..? or do you secretly despise him? judge your own heart .that's not for me and i don't claim to do so .

Right. So it is ourself that decides whether or not to do something considered sin.

 

[Alithis]

Sorry ol' boy, that is nothing more than a cop-out!
Maybe it could be that you don't fully realise the implications of your position and certainly with its obvious inconsistencies.

As for being "way off course", my points simply reflected your own line of thought and as such they are issues that you need to address.

As an example, it's no good talking about football where you refuse to discuss the objectives and the rules of the game, they are simply indivisible.

It's interesting in that maybe 40-50 years ago, if a Christian cakeshop in the US had of been caught making a cake for a homosexual 'marriage' then they probably could have been charged with supporting illicit and immoral behaviour. Would you maybe object today if someone came into a shop that you owned and said that he needs a cake for a secret wedding to a nine year old or if he was a Mormon/Muslim who wanted to secretly marry a second or fifth wife (or child bride) - would you say "Who am I to judge or would you maybe pick up the phone and ..."

nope your confusing the issues with many word and branching off into ambiguity .

according to the direct word of god we are to love our enemies and love all men and desire that they be saved and do what ever is required to bring that about as we live in and listen to the Holy Spirit .
we are also called to be cunning as serpents and gentle as doves .. what the cake shop did was imo a massive error in judgment and they have brought on their own heads its result .i feel for them but their motives were not loving their motive was judgmental.. and we can all learn from it .they played right into the hands of the gay rebellion .

 

[Alithis]

Right. So it is ourself that decides whether or not to do something considered sin.

ok your just not making sense right now ..this id about loving the sinner enough to save them at any cost .. and one cost we sometimes pay is our pride . so it is better to look a fool and save a soul then to appear to do the right thing and cause a man to end in hell. sometimes we must submit to the judgment of other believers to maintain obedience to the Holy Ghost .

 

[Alithis]

back laters

 

[Biblicist]

nope your confusing the issues with many word and branching off into ambiguity .

according to the direct word of god we are to love our enemies and love all men and desire that they be saved and do what ever is required to bring that about as we live in and listen to the Holy Spirit .

So you're making another "judgment" (which you said is only God's perogative) that they apparently 'hate their enemies' and homosexuals in particular - now that's certainly a very harsh and unwarranted judgment on your part.

As for the horrid sin/wickedness of sodomy, what Righteouss person or even an unsaved individual of good moral character would not be repulsed by their wickedness - but this does not mean that the Christian cannot love them; it seems that you have made an unwarranted division where you seemed to have forgotten that the Christian is still able to love the sinner no matter how wicked he may be but where we can still make a stand for Righteousness.

 

[Biblicist]

back laters

Same here! You've at least given me a bit of a fire in my belly which should keep me going for the rest of the day.

 

[Chicken Little]

its not a righteous judgment -only God can make that.our judgment is to see their great need and have compassion upon them .
we must stop this silly distinction between this sin and that sin.

.we must walk in love and compassion for the worst of sinner and ONLY love and compassion.
for god will judge and it is this very judgment we are given the escape from

it is a righteous judgement . Jesus wouldn't be in that wedding party either and, he isn't going to make wine at that wedding either ., he is not in that church with them and he is not in their marriage . to say he is is wrong. you know He is not there and he is also not in most wedding now days either. he is not in adulterous weddings and such either . but they don't care if he is there or not. they just want to force everyone else to be there if they want to or not I guess.

 

[Alithis]

Right. So it is ourself that decides whether or not to do something considered sin.

never said it wasn't ..the point is .. standing up in some fleshly stance and thinking it will change the world is simply not the truth .
the world is not going to be saved it is destined for destruction .. so refusing to bake a cake for some one is just silly and judgmental. we better to just say yes God bless you i will bake you the best cake ever because the lord Jesus loves you and wants you to know if you turn to him you will be saved from the judgment coming on the earth.. That will always be better then preempting that judgement and saying no i wont bake you a cake because your not worthy .. the truth is NONE OF US ARE WORTHY to receive Gods grace .

so its self righteous to make such a stand .it is based on the flesh and carnal minded reasoning ,. it is acting as though we desire to see these people burn.. and we cannot desire any such thing and in the same breath confess we have the love of God .it is just such contradiction which makes us bile in the stomach of the unbeliever.

see past the politics into the kingdom of god nd this great boundless unconditional love he has for the lost

 

[Alithis]

it is a righteous judgement . Jesus wouldn't be in that wedding party either and, he isn't going to make wine at that wedding either ., he is not in that church with them and he is not in their marriage . to say he is is wrong. you know He is not there and he is also not in most wedding now days either. he is not in adulterous weddings and such either . but they don't care if he is there or not. they just want to force everyone else to be there if they want to or not I guess.

are you the lord Jesus ?/ judgment is already coming and he who brings it is righteous and true .. ours is to preach the message of deliverance from it .not to jump in and condemn others for what we ourselves were saved from by grace ..ours is to pass on that graciousness and LOVE others as Christ has loved us . -unconditionally .even as they slew him on the cross he said "father forgive them they don't know what they do "

 

[Soyeong]

Hitler Reacts To Denied #GayWeddingCake:

 

[Chicken Little]

are you the lord Jesus ?/ judgment is already coming and he who brings it is righteous and true .. ours is to preach the message of deliverance from it .not to jump in and condemn others for what we ourselves were saved from by grace ..ours is to pass on that graciousness and LOVE others as Christ has loved us . -unconditionally .even as they slew him on the cross he said "father forgive them they don't know what they do "

maybe that is your job but it isn't everyone else' s job, we all have jobs he asks us to do .. please go save them if that is your job. It is not everyones job to live in sodom ... it wasn't ever anyone's job to live in sodom and the only fool who did lost his whole family. please if you have children be careful with your family!

 

[Chicken Little]

in the mean time I want to know since you are just such a anointed lover of mankind and so excepting of his sins .
where are all those you have converted into great christians by the power of his blood changed them into good disciples of the real Christ who overcomes sin .. those who were once militant perverts and militant fallen and sexual addicts ? all you need is 12 to change the world if they came out of that world with his power and his authority they would have no fear of it right? with 12 such men you could change the world!
but as far as I read he says in REV
Rev 21:7

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

AND
Rev 21:27

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither what so ever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


in the mean time I am way too busy in real life trying to help the Lord piece back the molested, the raped and broken by those people you are wanting the christian world to embrace with out limitations. no Sir convert twelve gungho sold out ex-militant perverts who pervert no one , no more again . and change the world with them. You teach them the real power of God to change their lives.
God can do it through you ! the rest of the world is too busy trying to pick up their peices from the lives they have screwed over for fun and kicks and their good times.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Of course it was and what's wrong with a Christian making a righteous judgement?

Nothing at all. But the judgement they made was contrary to the express command in Scripture. 1 Cor 5:9,10 It was NOT a "righteous judgement". It was a self-righteous judgement.

We are NOT given any authority to judge anyone outside the Church. We are not given any authority to forbid, or hinder, the exercise of free will which God Himself has granted to each and every individual ever born. If anything, we ARE commanded to engage those outside the Church in any way we can, even in business, if that is all that is available. What really happened through this whole affair was that the opportunity which God gave the baker was refused by the baker. And the result was that the couple, and others associated with them, are now even more disinclined to hear the Gospel. Nothing which was done by the baker served to grow the Church. Instead, it served to diminish that growth. Righteous? Hardly. It was nothing but selfishness. And fools will continue to applaud them for their error.

 

[StephanieSomer]

she responded to his forgiveness and mercy, and His admonition to go and sin no more.

He did not collude with or agree with her sin, did He?

Thank you kindly.

And what did He do to those who condemned her? Before you make the mistake of saying, "Nothing." because He said so little to them, please notice how they all reacted to what He did. They were all smitten by their own guilt and walked off. But, in today's age, the Church is standing around applauding those who condemned the sinner, rather than repent of their own impiety. I fear for many of this age who are convinced of their own perfection. I am saddened more by what I realize from Scripture that the condemners will experience than I am by what was done to the couple that was refused. The bakers had the opportunity to offer a "cup of cold water" in His Name. They refused Him. And they are applauded? The Church really is in desperate need of a wake-up call to realize how absolutely devoid of righteousness they really are.

"Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. " Rev 3:17-19

 

[camphigrades]

I see both sides to this argument, but as these situations keep coming up with bakeries, florists, etc., I've been led more and more to think about people's souls over the other factors that are in play. I don't want to ever condone sin, but at the same time, I don't want my actions to ever turn a sinner away from the possibility of coming to salvation. In the midst of the insanity of politically correct culture, refusing to bake the cake for a gay couple does nothing to actually bring them to Christ. Nothing. They, in their arrogance, see it only as judgment, and in doing so, they're alienated from Christ due to (in their perception) the "rejection" by Christians. And I understand the urge to answer that arrogance by being even more hard-nosed in our stance against sin and deciding that if these people can't see their sin, then they bring their own destruction...but that's not showing Love. And in doing so, it does nothing to bring the sinner to Christ, but only alienates them from the only One who can save them.

Bringing people to Christ's salvation should take precedence over any other stance, IMO. Perhaps I'm wrong and perhaps Alithis is wrong. But if I'm going to err, then let me err on the side of Love.

 

[StephanieSomer]

I understand your point, however, it's not judgement to say "no". The bakery had made many cakes for the gay couple but said no to the wedding cake. It was not unloving to say no. To do so was against their personal morals and to say yes to something they strongly believe is against what God would have them do, and is wrong too because whatever is done without faith is sin. (Romans 14:23)

The problem with that argument is that there is no Scriptural support for the idea that they should refuse a sinner business. I understand that it conflicted with what they believed. But, that belief has no grounding in the Word of God. As such, it was not a religious conviction. It was simply a personal conviction. And a false one. Scripture actually commands the opposite behavior. True, whatsoever is not in faith is sin. But they were already in sin by their judgement of individuals outside the Body. Had they baked the cake, their sin would have been a private one, affecting no one but themselves. As it is, their sin was compounded and affected the customer, and most everyone else associated with them. The argument which you offer is actually a selfish one. It serves only to protect the self-righteousness of someone who doesn't really know Scripture, rather than expressing the love and mercy of our Glorious Savior.

 

[Biblicist]

never said it wasn't ..the point is .. standing up in some fleshly stance and thinking it will change the world is simply not the truth .

It does seem that you might need to brush up on your world history.

Does this mean that you would never complain to your children’s school if as a result of the all too common practice where secular school teachers either insult or belittle Christian children where your children suffered the same; would you maybe criticise those parents who complained on your childs behalf?

I don’t know about New Zealand’s voting Laws, but why would you ever vote as you are making a declaration that one side has better values than the other; of course, you could never voice your opinions as you might run the risk of upsetting a non-Christian friend or workmate who disagrees with your values.

Does this also mean that you would never have stood alongside William Wilberforce who as a Christian rallied against the powerful financial and political elites of his day where his efforts (alongside those of others) was able to abolish slavery?

Though in your support, the Somerset case in England (1772) where the family of a single African Christian slave was able to have the English Court acknowledge that slavery had no foundation in British Law did have some unforeseen consequences. My point is that this case could have been the catalyst for the First American Civil War (1776) where the political and financial elite in the American Colonies (i.e., George Washington) along with a host of other wealthy slave owners decided that British Law (based on the Magna Carta) provided man with too many rights and privileges where these men felt that it only applied to those who were white.

Again, to give partial support to your view, if this single Christian family (Somersets) and the Christian politician Wilberforce had of remained silent then the US could have probably avoided two costly civil wars, where it is said (Did I read this in the Smithsonian?) they probably could have abolished slavery within the first couple of decades of the 20th century.

So, if you feel that the voices of the few makes no difference to world affairs, may I recommend that you go and grab a few history books.

 

[Biblicist]

It serves only to protect the self-righteousness of someone who doesn't really know Scripture, rather than expressing the love and mercy of our Glorious Savior.

I would be more inclined to say that this "self-righteousness" had a far greater impact than with merely the inner-feelings of a few Christians. As I mentioned earlier, the Christians (missionaries and those within Government) stopped the common vile Hindu practice where families burnt alive the wives of their husbands who had died. We can add to this the rampant sexual abuse, which admittedly is still a big part of Indian society and with the horrid cast system where the wealthy maintained a class of slaves for their own purposes who had absolutely no rights.

The efforts of the missionaries certainly upset the feelings of the powerful elites in India but their efforts enabled India to break free of a horrid demonic religion, though it still has its tentacles wrapped around many aspects of Indian society.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Right. So it is ourself that decides whether or not to do something considered sin.

The very suggestion that baking a cake could in any way, shape, or form, be sinful is incredibly absurd and only a simple mind could ever believe it.