C.A.R.M. 's homosexuality webpage

[JohnT]

My advice to Christians is to leave homosexual people alone and to get on with your own lives. What one does in privacy is THEIR business and NOT yours! Understand? I'm sure that no one wants to know what intimacies YOU get up to in privacy either. It seems to me after the weeks I've spent on this forum that many Christians are obsessed with sex and they need to get a grip on themselves. THEY are the problem ...not those who they point the finger at.

That was simple advice given in simple English.

Yes, simple advice--but NONE of it comes from the Bible

Get a grip, yourself!

It is God who you need to convince, not us. We quote the Bible because we believe it is His word to ALL generations, and points people to Jesus Christ. People who die without Jesus Christ as his/her savior faces a painful, God-less eternity. There are incidences in the Gospels where Jesus said that.

So let's see, so far many of your supporters do not like the things that God clearly said.

Also, many of your supporters do not like the exclusive entrance requirements to heaven, as stated by Jesus.

Yet these same people call themselves "Christian?" ((((shaking my head))))

In essence you need to know that NO Christian is perfect, for we have all come short of the glory of Christ. But all born-again Christians are perfectly forgiven, and knowing how deep is our sin, and the far deeper love of God in Christ Jesus, we choose not to flaunt disobedience--which homosexuality is, whether practiced or imagined or both.

Accurately calling homosexuality a sinful choice opens the door to repentance and reconciliation to God. Calling homosexual practices "innate" makes that akin to skin color or race--immutable. That also by definition calls Jesus and God liars, and I do not want to go further on that issue.

Therefore, it is the fundamentalists who are the most loving and kind; they call it as God sees it. The other side simply ignores things, hoping against hope, or clear vision that things will get better.

Only Christ can heal and forgive sins.

BTW
Thank you for your gratuitous ad hominum

many Christians are obsessed with sex and they need to get a grip on themselves

[sarcasm on] That really led to a deeper level of understanding, and dialog. [/sarcasm off]

Please deal with facts next time.

 

[Texas Lynn]

My advice to Christians is to leave homosexual people alone and to get on with your own lives. What one does in privacy is THEIR business and NOT yours! Understand? I'm sure that no one wants to know what intimacies YOU get up to in privacy either. It seems to me after the weeks I've spent on this forum that many Christians are obsessed with sex and they need to get a grip on themselves. THEY are the problem ...not those who they point the finger at.

That was simple advice given in simple English.

And most excellent as such. If you look at where this group is coming from they see LGBTs as the lowest of the low and want to keep them there. The fervor is due to a nagging realization that this is not supported by many people in other factions. Class factors also figure as well. Up to a certain point to criticize and condemn LGBTs is lauded. Where it changes is the divide between lower middle and middle class. At the upper end of that divide to know and respect LGBTs is valued; on the lower end to know any at all is rare. See Paul Fussell's Class: A Guide Through the American Status System for further info.

On another forum we were just discussing the sexual harrassment of lesbian women by heterosexual men. Needless to say heterosexual men grounded in reality tend to believe such things are hopeless causes and correctly so. But there is a subset offended at the existence of some who opt out of the heterosexual mating game and respond with corresponding hostility. It is exactly equivalent to the hostility LGBTs receive from religious extremists and equally dangerous. It is no coincidence that the Olympic Park Bomber Eric Rudolph also bombed a lesbian bar and an abortion clinic.

 

[Texas Lynn]

As to Lynn's statement, my comment is an accurate description of her post. Suppose you replace "fundamental Christians" with blacks, Puertoricans or Polaks, etc then you can see how bigoted her statement is.

When starting work on my second masters, in counseling, that was one of the things we were taught first: ethics. So I called her on that.

There is no defense for bigotry. Oh wait! It is OK if it is against fundamentalist Christians, right??

Gimme a break!!

It appears John T is confused about differences between therapeutic practice and personal opinion. In no way does posting on this message board constitute professional practice.

Moreover, those of us associated with ethical professions are required to respect the dignity and worth of all which mandates rejecting fundamentalist ideology.

Applicable sections of the National Association of Social Workers (NASW) code of ethics include:

Value: Social Justice

Ethical Principle: Social workers challenge social injustice.
Social workers pursue social change, particularly with andon behalf of vulnerable and oppressed individuals and groups of people. Social workers' social change efforts are focused primarily on issues of poverty, unemployment,discrimination, and other forms of social injustice. These activities seek to promote sensitivity to and knowledge about oppression and culturaland ethnic diversity. Socialworkers strive to ensure access to needed information, services, and resources; equality of opportunity; and meaningful participation in decision making for all people.

Value: Dignity and Worth of the Person

Ethical Principle: Social workers respect the inherent dignity and worth of the person.
Social workers treat each person in a caring and respectfulfashion, mindful of individual differences and cultural and ethnic diversity. Social workers promote clients' socially responsible self-determination. Social workers seek to enhance clients' capacity and opportunity to change and to address their own needs. Social workers are cognizant of their dual responsibility to clients and to the broader society. They seek to resolve conflicts between clients' interests and the broader society's interests in a socially responsible manner consistent with the values, ethical principles, and ethical standards of the profession.

...

1.05 Cultural Competence and Social Diversity

(a) Social workers should understand culture and its function in human behavior and society, recognizing the strengths that exist in all cultures.
(b) Social workers should have a knowledge base of their clients' cultures and be able to demonstrate competence in the provision of services that are sensitive to clients' cultures and to differences among people and cultural groups.
(c) Social workers should obtain education about and seek to understand the nature of social diversity and oppression with respect to race, ethnicity, national origin, color, sex, sexual orientation, age, marital status, political belief, religion, and mental or physical disability.

...

4.02 Discrimination

Social workers should not practice, condone, facilitate, or collaborate with any form of discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity, national origin, color, sex, sexual orientation, age, marital status, political belief, religion, or mental or physical disability.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Yes, simple advice--but NONE of it comes from the Bible

And that is significant because......?

Most people live in the real world. The Bible is not a magic recipe book and it bellittles it to think of it as such. As Henry Drummond put it in Inherit the Wind, "It's a good book, maybe a great book; but it's not the only book."

so far many of your supporters do not like the things that God clearly said.

God said zero concerning homosexuality, and what the patriarchs said about it is muddled and inaccurate.

Also, many of your supporters do not like the exclusive entrance requirements to heaven, as stated by Jesus.

Yet these same people call themselves "Christian?" ((((shaking my head))))

Suppose your position of Christian exclusivism turns out to be true; then your heaven would be worthless, an evil city of the mercenary. No person of integrity would go there.

we choose not to flaunt disobedience--which homosexuality is, whether practiced or imagined or both.

This is patently false. There is nothing whatsoever disobedient about being LGBT and the contention otherwise is unsupported by anything.

Accurately calling homosexuality a sinful choice opens the door to repentance and reconciliation to God. Calling homosexual practices "innate" makes that akin to skin color or race--immutable. That also by definition calls Jesus and God liars, and I do not want to go further on that issue.

Too many falsehoods in that one; best reply is that's the biggest crock posted here in a while. It's equivalent to Eric Stratton's defense speech to the Greek Council in John Landis' Animal House.

Therefore, it is the fundamentalists who are the most loving and kind; they call it as God sees it.

False again. They are in no position whatsoever to know even remotely "how God sees it" and it is the utmost arrogance and illegetimate exercise of false authority to claim such.

 

[Hentenza]

Practice makes perfect. Time to start practicing what you preach.

 

[catlover]

False again. They are in no position whatsoever to know even remotely "how God sees it" and it is the utmost arrogance and illegetimate exercise of false authority to claim such.

 

[JohnT]

The Old Testament is full of allegations of an angry tribal god behind the Hebrew tribe, having children consumed by she-bears for making fun of a prophet's bald head and the like. None of this should be construed as revealing much about the nature of God, though they reveal much of the primitive culture which spawned such things.

Nice opinion, but TOTALLY lacking Scriptural support

Psalm 103:8
The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more

Psalm 145:8
8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee

Lynn wrote

It appears John T is confused about differences between therapeutic practice and personal opinion. In no way does posting on this message board constitute professional practice.

Moreover, those of us associated with ethical professions are required to respect the dignity and worth of all which mandates rejecting fundamentalist ideology

Sooo bigotry as a private citizen is OK, but not with a client, right?
sounds like a double standard.

And even in your "explanation" you manage to get in a zinger! Bon mot. How can you "respect" something you obviously have a hatred for: fundamentalist Christians? What might be some of the reasons for such unabashed hatred? Is it constructive?

Originally Posted by JohnT

Yes, simple advice--but NONE of it comes from the Bible

Lynn wrote

And that is significant because......?

Most people live in the real world. The Bible is not a magic recipe book and it bellittles it to think of it as such. As Henry Drummond put it in Inherit the Wind, "It's a good book, maybe a great book; but it's not the only book."

The Bible is a book for all ages, written by the hand of God. Inherit the wind is a good read, but it is a book of fiction. To place it in greater authority than the Bible is patently absurd.

John T

so far many of your supporters do not like the things that God clearly said.

Lynn

God said zero concerning homosexuality, and what the patriarchs said about it is muddled and inaccurate.

Please provide the book, chapter and verse that is "muddled" I will go back to the Hebrew for you, but ONLY of you agree to let it be the final arbitrator.

John T

Therefore, it is the fundamentalists who are the most loving and kind; they call it as God sees it.

False again. They are in no position whatsoever to know even remotely "how God sees it" and it is the utmost arrogance and illegetimate exercise of false authority to claim such.

OK, I think I get it:
It is false because TEXAS LYNN says it, and of course NASW. Balderdash!

If you care to check an older version of DSM 3, you will find homosexuality characterized as a personality disorder. Notice that! Axis 2. Permanently imprinted. Now it is no longer classified as that. My point being that you seem to place more reliability on the APA and NASW than you do the Bible itself. Both of them have changed within your professional history, and mine. OTOH the Bible says what God says, and has never been "politically correct"

Respectfully, Lynn, it is you, not me who has no idea of what God says, for you have not quoted the Bible in your "rebuttals". Yet you have the gall to call me arrogant? It is you who quote evanescent sources of "authority" that change with every whim and fancy of those who reject the Gospel. To place these as authorities over the Bible is arrogating the words of mortal men over the words of the eternal God.

 

[katautumn]

OTOH the Bible says what God says, and has never been "politically correct"

Which is precisely why it's a great thing we, in America, do not live in a Bible-based theocracy.

 

[Hentenza]

Which is precisely why it's a great thing we, in America, do not live in a Bible-based theocracy.

And why the gate is narrow.

 

[catlover]

Nice opinion, but TOTALLY lacking Scriptural support

Psalm 103:8
The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more

Psalm 145:8
8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee

Lynn wrote
Sooo bigotry as a private citizen is OK, but not with a client, right?
sounds like a double standard.

And even in your "explanation" you manage to get in a zinger! Bon mot. How can you "respect" something you obviously have a hatred for: fundamentalist Christians? What might be some of the reasons for such unabashed hatred? Is it constructive?

Originally Posted by JohnT

​

Lynn wrote


The Bible is a book for all ages, written by the hand of God. Inherit the wind is a good read, but it is a book of fiction. To place it in greater authority than the Bible is patently absurd.

John T

​

Lynn Please provide the book, chapter and verse that is "muddled" I will go back to the Hebrew for you, but ONLY of you agree to let it be the final arbitrator.

John T​

OK, I think I get it:
It is false because TEXAS LYNN says it, and of course NASW. Balderdash!

If you care to check an older version of DSM 3, you will find homosexuality characterized as a personality disorder. Notice that! Axis 2. Permanently imprinted. Now it is no longer classified as that. My point being that you seem to place more reliability on the APA and NASW than you do the Bible itself. Both of them have changed within your professional history, and mine. OTOH the Bible says what God says, and has never been "politically correct"

Respectfully, Lynn, it is you, not me who has no idea of what God says, for you have not quoted the Bible in your "rebuttals". Yet you have the gall to call me arrogant? It is you who quote evanescent sources of "authority" that change with every whim and fancy of those who reject the Gospel. To place these as authorities over the Bible is arrogating the words of mortal men over the words of the eternal God.

You attacked TL by alleging she is a bad social worker...for stating what she believed about people who believe gays etc go to hell...


she is following the ethical standards of social work by advocating social justice...I don't think it's nice or Christian of you to attack her competency as a social worker...


LASTLY being left handed was considered a "disorder" of sorts...Thank God that was changed....

 

[JohnT]

You attacked TL by alleging she is a bad social worker...for stating what she believed about people who believe gays etc go to hell...


she is following the ethical standards of social work by advocating social justice...I don't think it's nice or Christian of you to attack her competency as a social worker...


LASTLY being left handed was considered a "disorder" of sorts...Thank God that was changed....

Sorry, but you totally misrepresent what I posted. I never commented on her as a bad social worker. I called her on her BIGOTED statement, saying that THAT STATEMENT was unethical. Get it?

Or perhaps are you defending bigotry? Especially bigotry against fundamental Christians? If that is the case, you must know that is a most intolerant position.

Besides that, what do you have against quoting the things that God wrote? Are you afraid of God?

 

[Texas Lynn]

Sooo bigotry as a private citizen is OK, but not with a client, right? sounds like a double standard.

It's called professionalism; it involves putting your opinions aside.

The Bible is a book for all ages, written by the hand of God. Inherit the wind is a good read, but it is a book of fiction. To place it in greater authority than the Bible is patently absurd.

Which, of course, I did not do.

Lynn Please provide the book, chapter and verse that is "muddled" I will go back to the Hebrew for you, but ONLY of you agree to let it be the final arbitrator.

Since I'm not a fundamentalist that'd be a futile exercise.
​

If you care to check an older version of DSM 3, you will find homosexuality characterized as a personality disorder. Notice that! Axis 2. Permanently imprinted. Now it is no longer classified as that.

Right. The helping professions decided to grow and change with increased knowledge and respect for diversity. the fundamentalists decided to not change because of a firm commitment to not acknowledging the humanity of those they have denigrated.

OTOH the Bible says what God says, and has never been "politically correct"

The Bible says what the patriarchs said. It became "politically correct" once Christianity emerged from the shadows to become a powerful force.
​

Respectfully, Lynn, it is you, not me who has no idea of what God says, for you have not quoted the Bible in your "rebuttals".

Non-fundamentalists do not argue Bible verses like sports fans argue sports statistics.

To place these as authorities over the Bible is arrogating the words of mortal men over the words of the eternal God.

The Bible, such as it exists, is entirely the words of mortal men.

 

[Texas Lynn]

And why the gate is narrow.

A gate of that sort is of no use to persons of integrity.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Which is precisely why it's a great thing we, in America, do not live in a Bible-based theocracy.

Theocracy is certainly the worst form of governance, always corrupt and always an affront to a just God.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Or perhaps are you defending bigotry? Especially bigotry against fundamental Christians? If that is the case, you must know that is a most intolerant position.

I believe fundamentalists should be allowed to marry, live in the neighborhood they want if they can afford it, not be discriminated against in employment, public accomodations, housing, and education; permitted to raise children, foster, and adopt, and not be denied custody absent other factors unrelated to their religion and politics. They should be allowed to have health insurance and receive artificial insemination if they wish it and it is medically feasible.

In contrast these are precisely the things fundamentalists wish to deny to LGBTs.

 

[JohnT]

I believe fundamentalists should be allowed to marry, live in the neighborhood they want if they can afford it, not be discriminated against in employment, public accomodations, housing, and education; permitted to raise children, foster, and adopt, and not be denied custody absent other factors unrelated to their religion and politics. They should be allowed to have health insurance and receive artificial insemination if they wish it and it is medically feasible.

In contrast these are precisely the things fundamentalists wish to deny to LGBTs.

The "moral equivalent" argument is bunk.

Granted there are yahoos who hate, and that is exactly what they do hate, and are therefore bigots, and their behavior is boorish--on all sides.

However, you have not provided ONE Scripture to support your thesis.

This is a very telling exchange, for it seems to say that you confirm you are a personal bigot, but not one professionally, right?

Originally Posted by JohnT

Sooo bigotry as a private citizen is OK, but not with a client, right? sounds like a double standard.

It's called professionalism; it involves putting your opinions aside

.

That is ASTOUNDING!

JOHN WROTE

Lynn Please provide the book, chapter and verse that is "muddled" I will go back to the Hebrew for you, but ONLY of you agree to let it be the final arbitrator.

LYNN RESPONDED

Since I'm not a fundamentalist that'd be a futile exercise.

Yet you are content to malign without providing substance, something you can not point to as establishing your point. If you went to grad school, you were taught to do better research. Come on! You can do better than to merely waffle!

My problem here is that the name of this site is CHRISTIANforums, and you consistently take the non-Christian, humanistic viewpoint, trashing those who hold a literal interpretation of Scripture. Surely, there is a disconnect.

One thing for certain is that you malign Scripture and have no idea about its history and transmission--a full course in seminary. But you are not the only one doing so; you are only the most recent example.

 

[Texas Lynn]

The "moral equivalent" argument is bunk.

I'm not sure what that is.

Granted there are yahoos who hate, and that is exactly what they do hate, and are therefore bigots, and their behavior is boorish--on all sides.

Some. But the handful of bad pro-human rights folks versus legions of meanspirited heterosexists is like an ant to an elephant.

However, you have not provided ONE Scripture to support your thesis.

Since I'm not a fundamentalist that's an irrelevancy. We don't do that.

This is a very telling exchange, for it seems to say that you confirm you are a personal bigot, but not one professionally, right?

?

My problem here is that the name of this site is CHRISTIANforums, and you consistently take the non-Christian, humanistic viewpoint, trashing those who hold a literal interpretation of Scripture. Surely, there is a disconnect.

One thing for certain is that you malign Scripture and have no idea about its history and transmission--a full course in seminary. But you are not the only one doing so; you are only the most recent example.

It seems you're more than a bit confused about what constitutes Christianity. Funbdamentalism =/= Christianity. Therefore Fundamentalists deserve no privileged status here. There is the disconnect.

 

[JohnT]

It seems you're more than a bit confused about what constitutes Christianity. Funbdamentalism =/= Christianity. Therefore Fundamentalists deserve no privileged status here. There is the disconnect.

Lynn,

Is it too much to assume that someone purporting to be a Christian would actually USE Christian sources?

That is the disconnect.

That is why I wrote

However, you have not provided ONE Scripture to support your thesis.

Therefore you offer your OPINION instead of using any Christian sources. and erroneously categorize the Bible as a muddle without offering a scintilla of evidence. That is an extremely poor hypothesis, and without merit.

I called you on your bigoted statement previously

I know those who condemn LGBTs tend to hold themselves in low esteem and fear "hell" to a bizarre extent. http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47531568&postcount=73

And now you make another

But the handful of bad pro-human rights folks versus legions of meanspirited heterosexists is like an ant to an elephant http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47563505&postcount=97

Looks as if I discern a persistent pattern. You go off onto ad hominems, and when others respond in kind, your side goes ballistic

Here is another of your ad hominems

If you look at where this group is coming from they see LGBTs as the lowest of the low and want to keep them there. http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47552388&postcount=82

Honestly, I do not know why such bigoted rhetoric is coming from on your part. Despite your protestation that you can "keep objectivity" in professional situations, and making this a personal situation where you are free to inject venom tells much about you as a person. You are free to disagree with me, but it is behavior of the lowest sort that condemns outright people based upon their religious beliefs.

If anyone would submit those BIGOTED quotes to NASW, and if you were a member, they would be very unhappy. Therefore be aware that I am NOT responding in kind to your taunts, but I am giving notice that continuation of such blatant prejudice, based upon religious stand is unacceptable.

 

[Hentenza]

A gate of that sort is of no use to persons of integrity.

You might want to ask Christ about that. These are His words not yours. We all fall short including you.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Is it too much to assume that someone purporting to be a Christian would actually USE Christian sources?

It is too much to feel qualified to judge which sources are and are not "Christian" sources.

That is the disconnect.

I do not believe so.

That is why I wrote Therefore you offer your OPINION instead of using any Christian sources. and erroneously categorize the Bible as a muddle without offering a scintilla of evidence. That is an extremely poor hypothesis, and without merit.

That's a mischaracterization.

I called you on your bigoted statement previously
And now you make another Looks as if I discern a persistent pattern. You go off onto ad hominems, and when others respond in kind, your side goes ballistic

Here is another of your ad hominems Honestly, I do not know why such bigoted rhetoric is coming from on your part. Despite your protestation that you can "keep objectivity" in professional situations, and making this a personal situation where you are free to inject venom tells much about you as a person. You are free to disagree with me, but it is behavior of the lowest sort that condemns outright people based upon their religious beliefs.

If anyone would submit those BIGOTED quotes to NASW, and if you were a member, they would be very unhappy. Therefore be aware that I am NOT responding in kind to your taunts, but I am giving notice that continuation of such blatant prejudice, based upon religious stand is unacceptable.

You have a right to your opinion. But I've never attacked fundamentalists in the allencompassing way in which they attack LGBTs and never will. I've never said like some that certain marginalized folks are incapable of experiencing love.