Bye Bye Ape Man!!!

[monkeypsycho62]

<staff edit>

I really appreciate how insulting your post sounds. Thanks. Apparently I "don't have a life" because I come onto this forum sometimes to try and learn some new things. How very Christian of you to say that.

And many people have answered your question. The simple answer is: We don't know.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing, however. And I know of NO ONE that would be arrogant enough to say "There is no possible way that the universe was created by the supernatural." There's just no reason to believe so, but there's still the slim possibility. But believing that also slows down scientific discovery. If everyone "knew" that Goddidit, then no one would inquire or attempt to learn.

We don't know, but are trying to. That's better, IMO, than saying "Goddidit" and never trying to figure out anything.

Hope I answered your question. And PLEASE try to answer more of ours.

 

[DMagoh]

The entire idea of an life after death is a baseless claim.

I guess the universe "popping up" out of thin air is NOT a baseless claim?

What if God reward skepticism? Then you're screwed.

Because God left a manual that says you're the one screwed.

It's equally plausible that you're going to hell because God punishes those who don't use the brain he gave them.

See above about God's manual.

You're so damn arrogant because somehow you chose the belief system that you didn't make up yourself, but you have no guarantee that someone else didn't make it up.

I've posted this before but everyone ignored it. A lot of people are willing to die for what they believe to be true. I would die for my beliefs in God. Muslims have proven they are willing to die (WTC suicidal plane) for what they believe to be true. BUT, what if we are wrong? We could be dying for something we believe, but are wrong and not know it.


HOWEVER, few people would die for something they KNOW is a lie. There are historically accounts of all twelve disciples (except one) that were martyred for saying that Jesus died and rose again. In fact, hundreds said they saw Him after He arose from the dead, and they too were martyred. Unlike me and my Muslim friends, they would have KNOWN whether what they were saying was truth or a lie. They would have KNOWN if they saw Him or if they had made up a lie.

I believe Jesus rose from the dead, but they claim they saw Him. Either they did or didnt, and they KNOW whether they did or not. So.... either they did see Him alive again and were willing to die for it, or they KNEW they didnt really see Him alive again and died for something they KNEW was a lie.

You might find one or two lunatics that would die for what they KNOW is a lie. But not literally hundreds and hundreds. If I KNEW I had not seen Jesus alive again and my head was on the chopping block, and all I had to do to go free was deny I ever saw Him, I'd be denying Him. So would you. Think about it.

 

[DMagoh]

And many people have answered your question. The simple answer is: We don't know.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing, however. And I know of NO ONE that would be arrogant enough to say "There is no possible way that the universe was created by the supernatural." There's just no reason to believe so, but there's still the slim possibility. But believing that also slows down scientific discovery. If everyone "knew" that Goddidit, then no one would inquire or attempt to learn.

We don't know, but are trying to. That's better, IMO, than saying "Goddidit" and never trying to figure out anything.

Well, if I didnt KNOW that the universe was not created supernaturally, and the possibility of God was there, I believe I would try my best to investigate that claim before I died. I would talk with Christians, like me, who might could explain why they believe. I wouldnt just call someone ignorant and walk away. I would be more than happy to correspond with you and give you reasons why I believe. Just shoot me a PM, and let's have an intelligent discussion instead of trading insults.

 

[Logic_Fault]

Because God left a manual that says you're the one screwed.

Really? Where? All we have is a collection of writings from various authors, most of whom are anonymous, that states contradictory opinions mixed with outlandish claims that god supposedly "inspired" them to write down.

Not terribly convincing.

See above about God's manual.

I don't think your god should be putting his name on something he didn't author. Oh, that's right, he didn't.

I've posted this before but everyone ignored it. A lot of people are willing to die for what they believe to be true. I would die for my beliefs in God. Muslims have proven they are willing to die (WTC suicidal plane) for what they believe to be true. BUT, what if we are wrong? We could be dying for something we believe, but are wrong and not know it. HOWEVER, few people would die for something they KNOW is a lie.

Perhaps they weren't aware it was a lie. People are often mistaken about things after all. Or maybe they were just duped into believing it was true because they didn't have the foresight to ask for evidence of what they were being told. The word gullible comes to mind.

There are historically accounts of all twelve disciples (except one) that were martyred for saying that Jesus died and rose again.

Show this evidence. I'm not personally aware of any that I can think of at the moment.

In fact, hundreds said they saw Him after He arose from the dead, and they too were martyred.

Such as?

Unlike me and my Muslim friends, they would have KNOWN whether what they were saying was truth or a lie. They would have KNOWN if they saw Him or if they had made up a lie.

And who were these people? Where are their first hand writings? Where are any contemporary writings, outside of Christianity of course, saying such things happened?

I believe Jesus rose from the dead, but they claim they saw Him.

People say they see ghosts too. And aliens. Or Jesus in a bagel.

EVIDENCE is what you need to provide, not anonymous and supposed eye-witnesses to an event that nobody outside your religion seems to have noticed.

Either they did or didnt, and they KNOW whether they did or not. So.... either they did see Him alive again and were willing to die for it, or they KNEW they didnt really see Him alive again and died for something they KNEW was a lie.

Or they didn't exist to begin with. It's possibile that the entire thing is fictional--possibly based on other mythologies around at the time.

You might find one or two lunatics that would die for what they KNOW is a lie. But not literally hundreds and hundreds.

You can provide the names of these "hundreds and hundreds" of people who all saw a resurrected Jesus and who were later martyred, right?

If I KNEW I had not seen Jesus alive again and my head was on the chopping block, and all I had to do to go free was deny I ever saw Him, I'd be denying Him. So would you. Think about it.

I wouldn't even need to be faced with execution. The fact that there's no evidence is enough for me.

Well, if I didnt KNOW that the universe was not created supernaturally, and the possibility of God was there, I believe I would try my best to investigate that claim before I died.

Do you know that the universe was not created by a giant cosmic monkey randomly flipping switches? It's certainly a possibility, at least to your thinking. Why then are you not seriously considering that claim and making an investigation into it?

The universe being created supernaturally has about as much evidence in favor of it as the cosmic monkey above which is why I discount both possibilities. If you'd care to provide verifiable evidence for the supernatural, and then evidence that it had anything to do with the creation of our universe, I'll be happy to take a look. Same goes for your, or anyone else's, deity.

I would talk with Christians, like me, who might could explain why they believe. I wouldnt just call someone ignorant and walk away. I would be more than happy to correspond with you and give you reasons why I believe. Just shoot me a PM, and let's have an intelligent discussion instead of trading insults.

Why not create a thread or, since this thread is so far off topic anyway, post it here so we can all see why you believe. Perhaps you'll gain a convert or two.

 

[consol]

I really do feel sorry for you. You really think you are intelligent. Making fun of me makes you temporarily feel good. Makes you forget for a moment you have NO idea how the original matter/energy in the universe appeared. No clue. Not even a hint. Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zilch. You are betting your whole eternity on what you DONT know. And yet you are so confident and arrogant about it.

Are you basing you whole argument on the fact that we don't know how life started?
because you and I don't know, you go off the deep end and suggest an all powerful
entity decided to make us and the universe for his pleasure?
that's a bit of a stab in the dark, wouldn't you say, the people who wrote the bible didn't know either,
they just wrote down how they thought it might have happened,
and you can tell it was written a long time ago by the funny things they wrote.

I am not professing to know how we came to be here, but making up wild stories
is certainly not the answer, if it was, the options are endless, one story being as good as the next,
if or until we do find out, don't you think we should keep an open mind?

I am not a believer so unfortunately for me there is no after life, but there is for you,
you will more than likely go to heaven and be with your God, please believe that,
I would never try and take away some ones dreams, of course the rest of us will never
find out if you ever do meet your God, it seems that's privileged information, shown only
to people when they die, so I don't suppose the promise is likely to come with a cast iron guarantee,
but we pays our money and we takes our choice, you have taken yours and I have taken mine,
I think I am right and you think you are right, nothing wrong with that.

We have come to our decisions from different sides, me from a no God upbringing and you
from a with God upbringing, I hope you would agree that if our positions could be reversed or had
our upbringings been different, I could be the believer and you could be the Atheist.

I do hope you are not going to say that you would still be a Christian no matter what upbringing you had,
because that is just not possible, had you been brought up with me,
God was never mentioned other than in passing, and I can't recall ever seeing a bible.

 

[Tomk80]

I guess the universe "popping up" out of thin air is NOT a baseless claim?

Who is claiming this? People here have said that they do not know how the universe started. What is so hard to understand about that for you? What scares you so much about not knowing something that you have to pretend that not knowing something is a bad thing. What is it about not knowing something that makes you so scared that you need to make stuff up to pretend you have an answer, while you actually have none.

 

[SeraphymCrashing]

<staff edit>

You gotta love when someone posts that someone else has no life for posting on a forum. It gets even better when you examine the average posts per day and find out that the accuser (DMagoh) has more posts per day than the accused (Monkeyboy).

Ah hypocrisy, such a sweet indulgence.

 

[DMagoh]

Perhaps they weren't aware it was a lie. People are often mistaken about things after all. Or maybe they were just duped into believing it was true because they didn't have the foresight to ask for evidence of what they were being told. The word gullible comes to mind.

Are you saying you wouldnt KNOW whether you saw someone you were with everyday for three years? You wouldnt KNOW whether you saw Him nailed to a cross and buried? You wouldn't KNOW that you did or didnt see Him again three days later?

Why not create a thread or, since this thread is so far off topic anyway, post it here so we can all see why you believe. Perhaps you'll gain a convert or two.

That's what you would like. You like the "pack mentality". You feel safe that way. You are afraid to talk with me one on one - why? You would rather me post something here so that all of you can take turns ridiculing me and high-fiving each other, grunting and scratching.

Also, there is no way to have serious dialogue here when it may be hours before you come back to respond, and before you can, ten other posters come jumping in making fun and throwing insults, and changing the topic before you have a chance to answer. If you really want to have a conversation, PM me. What are you afraid of? You dont really need your pack behind you do you?

That offer applies to anyone who is genuinely interested in a serious conversation. By serious conversation, I mean dont just ask me a question so you can make fun of me like a little game you enjoy. If you think I'm wrong, tell me so and why. Like an adult. Without sarcasm, name-calling, ridiculing, or any other high school antics. I agree to abide by the same rules.

 

[mpok1519]

just cuz someone doesn't like religion doesn't mean theyre a bad person.

 

[Logic_Fault]

Are you saying you wouldnt KNOW whether you saw someone you were with everyday for three years? You wouldnt KNOW whether you saw Him nailed to a cross and buried? You wouldn't KNOW that you did or didnt see Him again three days later?

You weren't specifically speaking of Jesus in the part I quoted and responded to. You made a general statement and I made a reply.

Anyway, I'll grant that you're correct in regards to Jesus. Now show that he existed, the Bible recorded the events accurately, the texts were translated accurately without omission or addition by later scribes, that the Apostles and other major characters existed and that any of them were martyred for their beliefs. And no, the Bible isn't evidence for any of that.

That's what you would like. You like the "pack mentality". You feel safe that way. You are afraid to talk with me one on one - why?

You weren't asking me to PM you, you made the offer to monkeypsycho62. I just thought you might find it easier to post here rather than get a dozen or so PMs from different people. If you don't want to then that's fine by me.

I do not rely on a "pack mentality." It certainly doesn't make me feel "safe" to have others in this thread who agree with me. Is there some reason you're afraid to post what you believe here for all to see? Perhaps your beliefs wont stand up to the scrutiny?

You would rather me post something here so that all of you can take turns ridiculing me and high-fiving each other, grunting and scratching.

I don't believe I've done such a thing to you in this thread. The ridicule part I could very well be guilty of, though I'm sure by now you know how to fix that perception since you've been told numerous times, but I'm pretty sure that I personally haven't done any of the rest of what you accuse us of.

Also, there is no way to have serious dialogue here when it may be hours before you come back to respond, and before you can, ten other posters come jumping in making fun and throwing insults, and changing the topic before you have a chance to answer.

I always read through the thread from where I left off. If you post a response, chances are I'll see it. If I miss one just let me know and I'll reply to it.

If you really want to have a conversation, PM me. What are you afraid of? You dont really need your pack behind you do you?

No, I don't need my "pack" behind me. I doubt I'll be PMing you as I have nothing to say to you that can't be said for all to see.

That offer applies to anyone who is genuinely interested in a serious conversation. By serious conversation, I mean dont just ask me a question so you can make fun of me like a little game you enjoy.

We haven't asked you any questions, that I'm aware of, solely to make fun of you. People have pointed out your lack of understanding of various topics, some have done it more harshly than others, but that was to try to get you to educate yourself.

If you think I'm wrong, tell me so and why.

Many of us have.

Like an adult. Without sarcasm, name-calling, ridiculing, or any other high school antics. I agree to abide by the same rules.

Frustration takes many forms. If you had done as suggested and learned about what you were arguing against then people would be less likely to insult you.

 

[DMagoh]

I do not rely on a "pack mentality." It certainly doesn't make me feel "safe" to have others in this thread who agree with me. Is there some reason you're afraid to post what you believe here for all to see? Perhaps your beliefs wont stand up to the scrutiny?

No, I don't need my "pack" behind me. I doubt I'll be PMing you as I have nothing to say to you that can't be said for all to see.

Well, it's your choice, but I find interesting that you decline. That means one, or all, of several things...

• You really aren't interested in investigating to see if there is any merit to the idea that God does exist. You really dont care, whereby you will have no excuse when you stand before Him because you declined to even look into it.
• You do need your pack and you do not feel comfortable talking to me one-on-one because you wont have the security of your pack circling the prey and backing you up.
• You have some insecurities about the issue and dont really want them exposed because then you would have to do something about it.

By the way, continuing to say I'm ignorant or ridiculing me doesnt do anything. Except make you feel superior for a few moments. It doesnt change whether God is there or not. Whether you look into the idea or continue to ignore it and ridicule all who mention it doesnt change anything.

 

[DMagoh]

just cuz someone doesn't like religion doesn't mean theyre a bad person.

What does this post mean? Is it in response to something? I know plenty of nice people that dont like religion. Who said that was prerequisite to being a nice person?

 

[Tomk80]

But you are ignorant about biology, DMagoh. It's just a simple statement of fact. Do you really not see that?

 

[Logic_Fault]

Well, it's your choice, but I find interesting that you decline. That means one, or all, of several things...

It means exactly, precisely and nothing more than what I told you it means: that I have nothing to say to you that can't be said for all to see.

• You really aren't interested in investigating to see if there is any merit to the idea that God does exist.

Of course I am. Present your evidence and I'll have a look.

• You really dont care, whereby you will have no excuse when you stand before Him because you declined to even look into it.

But I have looked and found nothing. I see no evidence for your, or anyone else's, deity. If you have some, show it.

• You do need your pack and you do not feel comfortable talking to me one-on-one because you wont have the security of your pack circling the prey and backing you up.

I don't believe anyone has backed me up in anything I've said. They may have agreed with me but that's because the evidence supports my position and has nothing to do with me personally.

Aside from that, I don't need anyone to back me up. I'm completely capable of researching and providing support for what I state. If I make a statement that is ill informed or incorrect then I have no trouble with retracting the statement and learning from it.

• You have some insecurities about the issue and dont really want them exposed because then you would have to do something about it.

Please, expose these insecurities you're so certain I have.

By the way, you're treading awfully close to Poisoning the Wellhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well by using those assertions about me.

By the way, continuing to say I'm ignorant or ridiculing me doesnt do anything.

Rectify your ignorance of evolution and people will cease pointing it out to you.

Except make you feel superior for a few moments.

I neither do it to feel superior nor do I actually feel superior when I say you're ignorant of a subject. I'm pointing out something in the hopes that you'll educate yourself on the subject you're arguing against. It can only make you more effective in the end.

It doesnt change whether God is there or not. Whether you look into the idea or continue to ignore it and ridicule all who mention it doesnt change anything.

Of course not. There's still just as much evidence for gods whether or not I do what you claim.

 

[DMagoh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMagoh
Well, it's your choice, but I find interesting that you decline. That means one, or all, of several things...

It means exactly, precisely and nothing more than what I told you it means: that I have nothing to say to you that can't be said for all to see.

Quote:

• You really aren't interested in investigating to see if there is any merit to the idea that God does exist.

Of course I am. Present your evidence and I'll have a look.

Quote:

• You really dont care, whereby you will have no excuse when you stand before Him because you declined to even look into it.

But I have looked and found nothing. I see no evidence for your, or anyone else's, deity. If you have some, show it.

Quote:

• You do need your pack and you do not feel comfortable talking to me one-on-one because you wont have the security of your pack circling the prey and backing you up.

I don't believe anyone has backed me up in anything I've said. They may have agreed with me but that's because the evidence supports my position and has nothing to do with me personally.

Aside from that, I don't need anyone to back me up. I'm completely capable of researching and providing support for what I state. If I make a statement that is ill informed or incorrect then I have no trouble with retracting the statement and learning from it.

Quote:

• You have some insecurities about the issue and dont really want them exposed because then you would have to do something about it.

Please, expose these insecurities you're so certain I have.

By the way, you're treading awfully close to Poisoning the Well by using those assertions about me.

Quote:
By the way, continuing to say I'm ignorant or ridiculing me doesnt do anything.

Rectify your ignorance of evolution and people will cease pointing it out to you.

Quote:
Except make you feel superior for a few moments.

I neither do it to feel superior nor do I actually feel superior when I say you're ignorant of a subject. I'm pointing out something in the hopes that you'll educate yourself on the subject you're arguing against. It can only make you more effective in the end.

Quote:
It doesnt change whether God is there or not. Whether you look into the idea or continue to ignore it and ridicule all who mention it doesnt change anything.

Of course not. There's still just as much evidence for gods whether or not I do what you claim.

Your actions, or the lack thereof, speak louder than your words. It's been nice talking with you; I am saddened that you decline the invitation.

 

[monkeypsycho62]

Your actions, or the lack thereof, speak louder than your words. It's been nice talking with you; I am saddened that you decline the invitation.

Just because he doesn't want to take the extra time to use a system such as Private Messages (Neither did I; it's just more unnecessary work), it doesn't mean that he doesn't want to discuss the topic.

Please stop making somewhat arrogant claims regarding how he is feeling. You don't know.

And seeing as how you are the creator of this topic, you should be able to defend your claims made in your OP. Private Messaging, in this case, is pointless. Anything that's discussed can be discussed publicly.

 

[Logic_Fault]

Your actions, or the lack thereof, speak louder than your words.

As do yours.

It's been nice talking with you; I am saddened that you decline the invitation.

I declined it because there's no need for it. Post here or start a new thread if you like but there's no need for private conversation unless you can't handle your ideas being scrutinized.

 

[DMagoh]

I declined it because there's no need for it. Post here or start a new thread if you like but there's no need for private conversation unless you can't handle your ideas being scrutinized.

I find it interesting that you avoid, at all costs, the Christian (unless you have your posse around). I have to admit I am quite surprised by your reluctance. You must have heard that I have a "super-duper electro-magnetic laser christian conversion gun" that I can shoot at people through the PM function. That is a false rumor, and it is absolutely not true. So you see, there is nothing to fear. You dont need your posse.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I find it interesting that you avoid, at all costs, the Christian (unless you have your posse around). I have to admit I am quite surprised by your reluctance. You must have heard that I have a "super-duper electro-magnetic laser christian conversion gun" that I can shoot at people through the PM function. That is a false rumor, and it is absolutely not true. So you see, there is nothing to fear. You dont need your posse.

And you don't need to hide. Post out in the open if you think what you have to say is worth saying.

 

[monkeypsycho62]

I find it interesting that you avoid, at all costs, the Christian (unless you have your posse around). I have to admit I am quite surprised by your reluctance. You must have heard that I have a "super-duper electro-magnetic laser christian conversion gun" that I can shoot at people through the PM function. That is a false rumor, and it is absolutely not true. So you see, there is nothing to fear. You dont need your posse.

And why do you think that he "needs" to be in a group? Maybe PM's are just less convenient, which is my case. I'd much rather just be able to pop in this thread at my leisure and look through than have a rapid back-and-forth with someone.

Why are you pushing the "alone" aspect? If your arguments were any good, then the amount of people wouldn't matter. Are you afraid of having your arguments be torn to pieces, so you're trying to limit the number of minds against your argument?

And shouldn't there be other creationists around here, anyway? Where's your "posse?"

But now I'm going to bed. I have to go to church tomorrow morning. (Yep. I'm even an altar server. Pretty ironic) I will probably check back in tomorrow, at my leisure, because I'm not in some intense back-and forth private debate with an assumption-making creationist.