By What Is Homosexuality Prohibited?

[Bob Carabbio]

Are you okay? Nobody I know would say "Inter SPECIES "marriages"aren't too far away either" when talking about human relationships. That statement is truly bizarre!

They've already happened, and while they're only "Marriages" in Legal definition, Biblically they're abhorrent. 10 states on the U.S. permit bestiality - one being Texas.

 

[parousia70]

Then by NOTHING!!!! - if the Torah/Old testament isn't an authoritative source - then there isn't one - PERIOD.

SEX is a anti-type specifically designed to illustrate the RELATIONSHIP between Jesus, and HIS CHURCH!!! - Those of us who are Born Again of the Holy Spirit who ARE His Bride.

Naturally the enemy will STOP AT NOTHING to discredit, corrupt, and destroy that anti-type by destroying the concept of NATURAL sexual relationships, and SELLING the LIE that sex between a man and a woman "is only one natural expression of it" - in fact he's deep into selling the concept that "only two sexes" is an obsolete attitude, and that there are over a HUNDRED (and counting) "Legitmate Gender identities".

Bottom line were will be, and are "same sex weddings" (even in "Christian Churches" that have lost their way), and LEGALLY there will be and are LEGAL "Same Sex MARRIAGES" on paper. Inter SPECIES "marriages"aren't too far away either.

But there will NEVER be a God-recognized MARRIAGE which is NOT between a man and a woman who have JOINED FLESH in the physically natural way - PERIOD.

I don't trust Banjo Players...It's just a thing I have....

 

[thomas_t]

perversion

It's a thread about homosexuality. Other posters used these kinds of wording, too.
Did you know? Homosexuals can't reply giving their view on the matter.*
Speaking about them using these sorts of disparaging remarks when they can't express their views freely... is like beating people who can't defend themselves. It's bullying, I think.
I'm not asking for the rules to be changed, though. Just to the contrary. However, in my opinion it would be fair if people here could adapt a bit to these rules and behave in a more civil manner avoiding homophobic attitudes when speaking about LGBT+.

* from the Terms of Service: "Homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality, transsexualism and transgenderism may not be promoted* on CF (including member profiles). Several debate forums allow homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality, transsexualism and transgenderism to be discussed from a political, legal, historical, and civil rights point of view. Please check the Statement of Purpose thread for individual debate forums before posting. Homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality, transsexualism and transgenderism may be discussed, without promotion*, [...]"

 

[HARK!]

It's a thread about homosexuality. Other posters used these kinds of wording, too.
Did you know? Homosexuals can't reply giving their view on the matter.*
Speaking about them using these sorts of disparaging remarks when they can't express their views freely... is like beating people who can't defend themselves. It's bullying, I think.
I'm not asking for the rules to be changed, though. Just to the contrary. However, in my opinion it would be fair if people here could adapt a bit to these rules and behave in a more civil manner avoiding homophobic attitudes when speaking about LGBT+.

* from the Terms of Service: "Homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality, transsexualism and transgenderism may not be promoted* on CF (including member profiles). Several debate forums allow homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality, transsexualism and transgenderism to be discussed from a political, legal, historical, and civil rights point of view. Please check the Statement of Purpose thread for individual debate forums before posting. Homosexuality, same-sex marriage, bisexuality, transsexualism and transgenderism may be discussed, without promotion*, [...]"

This thread really isn't about homosexuality. It's really about the Torah; unless someone can tell me what YHWH will enforce outside of law, and by what mechanism.

I chose homosexuality as a vehicle because the vast majority of Christians understand that it is prohibited; and they will strongly defend that stance. It is not in the Decalogue; and we have no record of Yahshua speaking of it. This isn't a gay bashing thread. Let's try to keep from letting this thread get derailed.

If Christians aren't prohibited from homosexuality by the Torah; then by what?

Answering this question is the purpose of this thread.

 

[hedrick]

This thread really isn't about homosexuality. It's really about the Torah; unless someone can tell me what YHWH will enforce outside of law, and by what mechanism.

I chose homosexuality as a vehicle because the vast majority of Christians understand that it is prohibited; and they will strongly defend that stance. It is not in the Decalogue; and we have no record of Yahshua speaking of it. This isn't a gay bashing thread. Let's try to keep from letting this thread get derailed.

If Christians aren't prohibited from homosexuality by the Torah; then by what?

Answering this question is the purpose of this thread.

It's a bad vehicle for dealing with the general problem, because people's hatred for homosexuality swamps rational discussion. There are also CF rules that prohibit a real discussion here.

Christians typically use OT commandments with great care, because Jesus abolished the OT purity rules (at least for Gentiles), and the OT rule about homosexuality is part of that code. Hence the usual citation of Paul, though in my opinion without understanding him. My own answer to the OP is "it isn't," but rules prohibit supporting that in this forum.

[You can argue whether Jesus actually abolished the purity code, or whether Acts 15 sees it as still a valid part of the Law, but not applicable to Gentiles. I think Mark 7:19 says he actually abolished it.]

 

[HARK!]

[You can argue whether Jesus actually abolished the purity code, or whether Acts 15 sees it as still a valid part of the Law, but not applicable to Gentiles. I think Mark 7:19 says he actually abolished it.]

That's a strawman argument. There is no law on the Torah which prohibits eating bread before washing one's hands. That's dogma.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Most Christians are quick to point out that homosexuality is an abomination; but many of them will claim that we are not under the law, which they interpret as being exempt from the law, or something similar. Even the ones who say the we are compelled to keep the Decalogue, can't point to a law in the Decalogue that prohibits homosexuality.

Clearly it is sin. It is decried from before Moses, and after Yahshua's ascension.

Sin is transgression of the law.

If homosexuality isn't prohibited by proclamation of the Torah; then by what?

13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Lev 20:13

22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Lev 18:22

Homosexuality is prohibited in the law, it is that simple.
As it is clear, I wonder why there is any doubt.

The problem with sexual impulse is it overrides sense and relationships. Two people can connect and be full of passion but as people are totally incompatible. It is the critical contradiction of life, where if we give into passion about circumstance we bring judgement on ourselves. There is a proposal that sexual passion is linked to our genetics and is set from birth. It is clear there are both emotional, environmental and genetic factors, as well as developmental identity processes.

What is clear is if the sexual identity of someone is compromised early in their life an incident lasting only a few minutes wounds them for the rest of their lives. Our value and beauty is wrapped up in sex and our futures and dreams. It is therefore difficult to separate out these powerful forces into boxes, other than letting God put them in their appropriate places.

Our society is trying to deny these realities and create people like Epstein who was totally overwhelmed by sexual passion that did not matter to him who he destroyed or affected, to meet this passion, and believed money was a suitable reward to totally devalue young girls and their futures. This demonstrates what happens when self indulgence takes over and the only valid experience is a sexual high. Like all addictions the addictive personality cannot break the link, and will continue to their own destruction.

Paul lays out how we can put these powerful emotions in their proper place.
God bless you

 

[hedrick]

That's a strawman argument. There is no law on the Torah which prohibits eating bread before washing one's hands. That's dogma.

Talk to Mark about that.

 

[HARK!]

Homosexuality is prohibited in the law, it is that simple.
As it is clear, I wonder why there is any doubt.

Some people seem to think that the law is passe.

 

[thomas_t]

if the sexual identity of someone is compromised early in their life an incident lasting only a few minutes wounds them for the rest of their lives.

This is child abuse you're talking about or alluding to. This thread, however, is about homosexuality. Stay on topic?

Our value [...] is wrapped up in sex [...]

quote abriged.
I'm quite surprised to read this here. Many people from within Christianity say quite the opposite...

I'm not quite sure about this, though.
I'm rather convinced: Jesus is not a respecter of persons: Romans 2:11. In my interpretation, this means that every person has the same value to God meaning the beautiful are not more valuable than the not so beautiful.
Prosperity Gospel says that God loves people more if they look great/ don't have problems/ have had a good childhood/ have success and so on... I don't believe prosperity gospels. Jesus loves everyone! That's the Gospel as I see it.

 

[LightLoveHope]

This is child abuse you're talking about or alluding to. This thread, however, is about homosexuality. Stay on topic?

quote abriged.
I'm quite surprised to read this here. Many people from within Christianity say quite the opposite...

I'm not quite sure about this, though.
I'm rather convinced: Jesus is not a respecter of persons: Romans 2:11. In my interpretation, this means that every person has the same value to God meaning the beautiful are not more valuable than the not so beautiful.
Prosperity Gospel says that God loves people more if they look great/ don't have problems/ have had a good childhood/ have success and so on... I don't believe prosperity gospels. Jesus loves everyone! That's the Gospel as I see it.

Unfortunately who we are is wrapped up in sex. Sex is where we came from, it determines a lot of our behaviours, what we approve of, what we regard as good or bad behaviour.

In social interactions, our power, health, virility all look towards our potential as partners etc. How we look at a stranger, often first impact is the beauty or otherwise, which is all around a sexual identity. And in our interactions, deep emotional needs can often lead to inappropriate relationship or even aspirations, which are unhelpful.

This is such a prevalent theme the homosexual community felt they had to say they interacted as a community differently than the heterosexual community.

Now interactions between women tend to be relationship orientated or what is called agreeable and with men often becomes status or power centric, with facts or objectives being the goal.

Into this mix comes homosexuality, which does not quite fit, or so they feel. And sexual attraction is also linked to psychological development of identification with ones mother, to a more mature distant view where we are our genders role with the opposite gender as our partner. Some have asked whether homosexuality is a failure in this development process, which often develops with testosterone in teenage years. Some female athletes from Russia where given testosterone in their gymnastic competitions as youngsters, to the extent some have chosen to become male, as it affected them so dramatically.

My view is this is a complex interaction of genetic variation, hormones, social pressures and trauma, which end up with homosexual tendencies as well as to over active sexual addictions of many sorts.

Jesus calls us to love, to knowing emotional freedom and identity above these issues. Intimacy is not bounded by sexual closeness, rather sexual closeness probably is a distraction. I have seen too many examples where sexual interaction leads to emotional turmoil and the opposite of closeness.

So for me homosexuality is a distraction from true love and intimacy. God bless you

 

[Religiot]

Most Christians are quick to point out that homosexuality is an abomination; but many of them will claim that we are not under the law, which they interpret as being exempt from the law, or something similar. Even the ones who say the we are compelled to keep the Decalogue, can't point to a law in the Decalogue that prohibits homosexuality.

Clearly it is sin. It is decried from before Moses, and after Yahshua's ascension.

Sin is transgression of the law.

If homosexuality isn't prohibited by proclamation of the Torah; then by what?

Plainly, it's prohibited by the word of God.

When people realize that the greatest commandment is not in the decalogue, it always starts to cause them to reflect on what they've learned, and it also causes them to question their teachers--not to ask them questions, but to question whether or not they knew the word of God.

 

[HARK!]

Plainly, it's prohibited by the word of God.

When people realize that the greatest commandment is not in the decalogue, it always starts to cause them to reflect on what they've learned, and it also causes them to question their teachers--not to ask them questions, but to question whether or not they knew the word of God.

Indeed, Yahshua was quoting from the greater Torah.

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

(CLV) Mt 22:38
This is the great and foremost precept.

(CLV) Mt 22:39
Yet the second is like it: `You shall be loving your associate as yourself.'

(CLV) Mt 22:40
On these two precepts is hanging the whole law and the prophets."

(CLV) Dt 6:5
So you will love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity.

(CLV) Lv 19:18
You shall not avenge nor shall you be resentful against the sons of your people. You will love your associate as yourself: I am YHWH.

 

[Religiot]

Indeed, Yahshua was quoting from the greater Torah.

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

(CLV) Mt 22:38
This is the great and foremost precept.

(CLV) Mt 22:39
Yet the second is like it: `You shall be loving your associate as yourself.'

(CLV) Mt 22:40
On these two precepts is hanging the whole law and the prophets."

(CLV) Dt 6:5
So you will love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity.

(CLV) Lv 19:18
You shall not avenge nor shall you be resentful against the sons of your people. You will love your associate as yourself: I am YHWH.

Sounds better in the King James Bible, but I still fully agree.

 

[thomas_t]

Had to think about your post for while...

My view is this is a complex interaction of genetic variation, hormones, social pressures and trauma, which end up with homosexual tendencies as well as to over active sexual addictions of many sorts.

You cite homosexuality in one line with addiction...
Actually, you're posting in a thread highly charged with homophobic remarks.
We've seen homosexuals being under the suspicion of being possessed by demons, post #84. We've also seen the claim of homosexuality being a mental illness, #128.
You're pouring oil into the fire here.
And now comes the trauma card you're playing here.

LGBT+ you say are traumatized by default, you're not. At least you don't say you are. Isn't this a nice hierarchy? You belong to the no 1 type of folks... assuming the role of a wise and experienced psychologist conducting some mind reading.. but them? the no. 2. They are stuck in trauma. This is at least how your lines come across to me.
Everything they could possibly say if they were permitted to... you could wipe it off as purportedly being the symptom of having suffered an unsolved trauma as yet. That's effecitve in attacking their credibility, I'm afraid.

Morepver, all of this comes as an array of unsubstanciated claims from your side. You're using declaration as your preferred means of writing on this subject here, instead of neatly providing decent sourcing as documentation. I'm not saying they're all not traumatized though...

I once posted an opinion of mine on another board concerning how to deal with child abuse. They didn't like what I was saying. After a short debate they seemed to not have any arguments left to prove me wrong. so they just declared me mentally ill. How very convenient.
If it's a statement of a mentally sick person... nobody needs to take seriously what they say. It's easy.

 

[Sabertooth]

If homosexuality isn't prohibited by proclamation of the Torah; then by what?

It is prohibited in the Torah, via

“You shall not commit adultery." Exodus 20:14 NKJV

Sexual exclusivity is reserved for marriage, both before and during marriage. If your spouse dies, first, sexual exclusivity is reserved for your next marriage.

And marriage is defined in Genesis 2:24,

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
and they shall become one flesh."

Sex with any other creature, male or female, though not marriageable, violates that sexual exclusivity (even if your mate approves).

Heterosexual adultery might meet with more social approval, but it still violates God's standard.

 

[thomas_t]

[It's prohibited] by nature itself. The anus was never designed for sex, and having anal sex causes harm to that tissue, it causes more bleeding and spreads more disease as a result.

so, the moment a tissue starts bleeding more and and more germs get spread... a particular activity is prohibited by nature? Can't believe it.

 

[Jamdoc]

so, the moment a tissue starts bleeding more and and more germs get spread... a particular activity is prohibited by nature? Can't believe it.

You do an unnatural thing and it causes harm, seems like it's acting contrary to nature and contrary to God's design sure enough.

 

[thomas_t]

You do an unnatural thing and it causes harm, seems like it's acting contrary to nature and contrary to God's design sure enough.

but you do it all the time, it seems...
* Headers in soccer: Players who reported the most headings had the poorest performance on functional tasks known to be affected by brain injury, the authors note. The effect on memory was “borderline,” however, they add. see here LINK
* heterosexual couples also do things that might turn out to be dangerous to some sort of tissue...
* too little exercise and the dangers it may cause to your health, see here LINK.

so if all of it were forbidden by nature not many things are left to be done legally...

 

[thomas_t]

We are Israel.
"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen. 6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”…8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring"

quite off topic here... but since you brought the issue up:
I think Israel is Israel. The church is the church. Don't mess them up.
Your passage is talking about Issac's spiritual descendants... who says he has but one line of (spiritual) descent. It's conjecture, I think.