Busting the myth that gays can't change....

[levi501]

If you are talking about here on CF, then i would have to agree. This was a Christian site at once and I am sure your pov was not predominant at that time. Now it appears the pendulum is at the other end of its path.

And with god willing hopefully it won't change.

 

[TheManeki]

Maybe he's sad this isn't a Real True Christian forum. If you want one of those, I would suggest Teens-4-Christ. Even though it's a teens' site, they allow adults to come in and tell the kids what Real True Christians should believe, and gleefully consign the rest of us degenerates into eternal perdition.

 

[.Sabre.]

Maybe he's sad this isn't a Real True Christian forum. If you want one of those, I would suggest Teens-4-Christ. Even though it's a teens' site, they allow adults to come in and tell the kids what Real True Christians should believe, and gleefully consign the rest of us degenerates into eternal perdition.

True.

There is also the Westboro Baptist site....

 

[selfinflikted]

I think this site is the epitomy of how a christian should be. Open - to everyone.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I'm trying to make sense of how this is opposed to what I said but I just can't. Maybe I'm missing something.

As you said, the desire or temptation is not wicked or apart from God's will...

Sure, I think I see where I can help clear up the key part where the sense isn't taking form:

"... but when this blurred view is presented, the desire or temptation itself is not acknowledged to be wicked or apart from God's will..."

The blurred view is not a good thing - not seeing, being spiritually blind, not knowing what is of God and what isn't, etc. would be a bad thing - not a good thing.

The key issue is that God does not tempt, the nature of temptation is apart from God. So as you may now be able to make sense of the post, the last part you offered in reply above isn't the context I was trying to articulate in my post. In fact, it would be the exact opposite.

Matthew 4:3
The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

James 1:12-14
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

 

[NeTrips]

Maybe he's sad this isn't a Real True Christian forum. If you want one of those, I would suggest Teens-4-Christ. Even though it's a teens' site, they allow adults to come in and tell the kids what Real True Christians should believe, and gleefully consign the rest of us degenerates into eternal perdition.

True.

There is also the Westboro Baptist site....

---------------------------------------------

I think everyone, myself included, could stand to remember that we are not interacting with dollies, screen-names, and avatars. We are interacting with human beings.

WF, regarding the quotes above yours, I am curious if it was you and your beliefs that were riducled, if you would choose to respond with sincerity or or would be tempted to sink to their level and respond with sarcasm and nastiness as well?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I assure you, our "in your face" attitude is completely reactionary. We didn't start this.

That ironic claim might make sense if man made god, but it is God who made man. God who blessed man with His judgments for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work..

Nobody is forcing you to go to a Christian forum to complain that a sexual immorality should be acceptable to Christians.

 

[silentreader]

I think this site is the epitomy of how a christian should be. Open - to everyone.

when you say open do you mean open to any behavior or idea? what are you insinuating?

 

[SimplyMe]

Sure, I think I see where I can help clear up the key part where the sense isn't taking form:

"... but when this blurred view is presented, the desire or temptation itself is not acknowledged to be wicked or apart from God's will..."

The blurred view is not a good thing - not seeing, being spiritually blind, not knowing what is of God and what isn't, etc. would be a bad thing - not a good thing.

The key issue is that God does not tempt, the nature of temptation is apart from God. So as you may now be able to make sense of the post, the last part you offered in reply above isn't the context I was trying to articulate in my post. In fact, it would be the exact opposite.

Matthew 4:3
The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

James 1:12-14
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Yet again, nowhere in my post have I stated otherwise. I made no claims as to where the temptations came from. The part about God's will is that it is God's will that they not sin, that God does not call temptation sinful. The question is why does one need to undergo therapy simply because they have these temptations?

Now, some here have argued that we do have therapy to help people deal with addictions -- yet the fact they are addicted shows that they have at least done the "sin". The difference with homosexuality is that many, if not most, of those that go to reparative therapy are those that have never sinned in that way, they merely have the temptation. And this is because they have been taught, and are encouraged by reparative therapists to believe, that they are somehow broken or evil for having these temptations despite the fact it is not one of their sins.

Again, as your scripture says, why are we not teaching them to "flee from sexual immorality" rather than trying to "recover from homosexuality"? Recovery, especially for someone that has not engaged in any form of homosexual act, implies the person is sinful for simply having the temptation -- that is my point -- and that is what homosexuals learn from people who make these claims.

 

[silentreader]

Yet again, nowhere in my post have I stated otherwise. I made no claims as to where the temptations came from. The part about God's will is that it is God's will that they not sin, that God does not call temptation sinful. The question is why does one need to undergo therapy simply because they have these temptations?

Now, some here have argued that we do have therapy to help people deal with addictions -- yet the fact they are addicted shows that they have at least done the "sin". The difference with homosexuality is that many, if not most, of those that go to reparative therapy are those that have never sinned in that way, they merely have the temptation. And this is because they have been taught, and are encouraged by reparative therapists to believe, that they are somehow broken or evil for having these temptations despite the fact it is not one of their sins.

Again, as your scripture says, why are we not teaching them to "flee from sexual immorality" rather than trying to "recover from homosexuality"? Recovery, especially for someone that has not engaged in any form of homosexual act, implies the person is sinful for simply having the temptation -- that is my point -- and that is what homosexuals learn from people who make these claims.

well someone can learn whatever they want if they have a closed mind. i know at my church being homosexual is not a sin. the sin lies in either engaging in homosexual sexual relations, creating a union with another homosexual, or testifying that either of the previous is not sin.

 

[AuraTwilight]

when you say open do you mean open to any behavior or idea? what are you insinuating?

He's merely saying that everyone is open to come here and state their opinions and points of views without being patronized or discriminated against, and for that this site has my absolute respect.

 

[silentreader]

He's merely saying that everyone is open to come here and state their opinions and points of views without being patronized or discriminated against, and for that this site has my absolute respect.

agreed though i am not so sure that is the only thing he meant.

 

[SimplyMe]

Turn this around for just a moment and consider it from the perspective of one who finds the act sinful. Our children are being presented with other's beliefs that we feel are wrong and sinful, many cannot afford to "change the channel", they are basically being told that they need to embrace sin or at least tolerate it. In MA, we've been deluged with lawsuits and parades and protests for the last five years almost daily in the news and in the papers. Not everyone likes sinful actions being presented as acceptable. As long as the act is presented as OK we will be there to tell the truth that it is not. We will be labeled as bigots and haters, have our motives maligned, have our beliefs slandered, have our names and addresses made public, and our persons threatened, but that will not deter us.

If you insist on living your life in a manner that is sinful, as you suggested, at least keep it to yourself, if not, do not be shocked when you find opposition.

So, do you work towards removing marriage for people who are not Christian? How can you allow Muslims, Hindus and especially Pagans to flaunt their evil, idolatrous ideas that are clearly spoken against in the Bible? Worse, we even allow them to have their own places of worship and their own evil, idolatrous rites! Think of the children who are seduced by this evil! [/sarcasm]

And this is the flaw in your argument. If you are not going to claim of the terrible effect of people who violate the first and greatest commandment and attempt to deny them marriage then why should you object when others who do not believe as you do wish to marry and live their lives in accordance to what they believe and according to their conscience? Especially when many of these people, unlike those that deny God, actually are Christian.

According to the law, if you are going to deny equal access (in this case of marriage) the burden of proof is on those who wish to deny equal access -- IOW the burden is on you to prove that homosexuality is harmful for society. And, unfortunately for you, every major professional organization that has spoken out all agree that there is no basis for banning homosexual marriage or to prevent the adoption of children.

 

[selfinflikted]

That ironic claim might make sense if man made god, but it is God who made man. God who blessed man with His judgments for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work..

The problem is not everyone agrees on this. In my worldview it is quite the opposite - Man made god in his own image. That is why god shares so many human-like qualities with his fellow man (i.e. jealousy, wrath, judgement, etc).

Nobody is forcing you to go to a Christian forum to complain that a sexual immorality should be acceptable to Christians.

If there is a cancer of the brain, one doesn't go to the foot to operate. Besides, I'm not advocating acceptance, I'm advocating tolerance.

when you say open do you mean open to any behavior or idea? what are you insinuating?

He's merely saying that everyone is open to come here and state their opinions and points of views without being patronized or discriminated against, and for that this site has my absolute respect.

agreed though i am not so sure that is the only thing he meant.

Aura got it right. Don't try to read too far into my posts - you can take most of them at face value

 

[silentreader]

So, do you work towards removing marriage for people who are not Christian? How can you allow Muslims, Hindus and especially Pagans to flaunt their evil, idolatrous ideas that are clearly spoken against in the Bible? Worse, we even allow them to have their own places of worship and their own evil, idolatrous rites! Think of the children who are seduced by this evil! [/sarcasm]

And this is the flaw in your argument. If you are not going to claim of the terrible effect of people who violate the first and greatest commandment and attempt to deny them marriage then why should you object when others who do not believe as you do wish to marry and live their lives in accordance to what they believe and according to their conscience? Especially when many of these people, unlike those that deny God, actually are Christian.

According to the law, if you are going to deny equal access (in this case of marriage) the burden of proof is on those who wish to deny equal access -- IOW the burden is on you to prove that homosexuality is harmful for society. And, unfortunately for you, every major professional organization that has spoken out all agree that there is no basis for banning homosexual marriage or to prevent the adoption of children.

the problem with your whole argument is that there is no right to marriage to deny access to. society has defined it as one man and one women. if this society decides to change it so be it (i would not vote for it). but it is not some hidden right in the constitution.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Well then, its time for society to redefine marriage

 

[SimplyMe]

well someone can learn whatever they want if they have a closed mind. i know at my church being homosexual is not a sin. the sin lies in either engaging in homosexual sexual relations, creating a union with another homosexual, or testifying that either of the previous is not sin.

I don't believe I've claimed anything about your church. I honestly have no idea of what they do or don't do.

The thread, however, is about reparative therapy and their claims that they can "cure" gays. It is this that I'm responding to, that and the idea that a temptation needs to be "cured". From your statements, you seem to believe that reparative therapy is unnecessary and gays do not need to be cured -- though I could be mistaken. It is the belief that gays need to be "cured" or "recover", even if they are celibate, that causes many gays to learn they are evil; just as it makes the proponents of this cure appear to not just "hate the sin".

 

[selfinflikted]

Well then, its time for society to redefine marriage

Yep, and it's already happening. I just hope the process doesn't take too long. I'd love to see this in my lifetime

 

[SimplyMe]

the problem with your whole argument is that there is no right to marriage to deny access to. society has defined it as one man and one women. if this society decides to change it so be it (i would not vote for it). but it is not some hidden right in the constitution.

I don't believe that I claimed there was a right to marriage, rather I claimed there is a right (protected by the 14th amendment) to equal treatment under the law. It is this equal treatment I'm speaking of and the fact that marriage is denied on the basis of gender (unequal treatment).

 

[silentreader]

I don't believe I've claimed anything about your church. I honestly have no idea of what they do or don't do.

The thread, however, is about reparative therapy and their claims that they can "cure" gays. It is this that I'm responding to, that and the idea that a temptation needs to be "cured". From your statements, you seem to believe that reparative therapy is unnecessary and gays do not need to be cured -- though I could be mistaken. It is the belief that gays need to be "cured" or "recover", even if they are celibate, that causes many gays to learn they are evil; just as it makes the proponents of this cure appear to not just "hate the sin".

i believe gays can be freed from the bondage of homosexuality. they can live joyous lives without engaging in homosexual acts or unions and without endorsing said behavior. sometimes this is in the form of celibacy and sometimes it is in the form of a hetrosexual marriage. gays, just like hetrosexuals, are imperfect creatures afflicted with things not of God. having a temptation is not sin, acting on it is IMO. i have thoughts about lust but use the word of God to combat them. i am not perfect in that battle but i don't just give up and say it is ok to do.