Busting the myth that gays can't change....

[m9lc]

2)unnatural prevalence as in "most".

By that logic, red hair is unnatural.

 

[fated]

By that logic, red hair is unnatural.

The classic Greek and Roman cultures considered pederasty to be a proper expression of love between a man and a boy. Is the prevalence of natural-boy-erotic-love that high in todays society to use the term "most men" to describe it? As real as hair dyed red, is red.

 

[IzzyPop]

The classic Greek and Roman cultures considered pederasty to be a proper expression of love between a man and a boy. Is the prevalence of natural-boy-erotic-love that high in todays society to use the term "most men" to describe it? As real as hair dyed red, is red.

Where does pederasty even enter the equation? It used to be to do a lot of things we now deem to be immoral. Things like stoning your kids and stuff.

 

[fated]

Where does pederasty even enter the equation? It used to be to do a lot of things we now deem to be immoral. Things like stoning your kids and stuff.

It shows (at least):

1)If people are like they were 1700 years ago in "natural desires," it certainly is a precedent for people learning to love having sex with boys.
2)It shows that society has an effect on sexual orientation.

 

[beechy]

1)I never said the relationship would "rid" them of their "gayness." Isn't it ridiculous to assert that this could be done? Someone seems to have added that to my statement.

Yes, I agree, it's ridiculous. So what you were actually saying is that if a gay person has a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, they'll still be gay. I agree .... what was your point, then?

2)unnatural prevalence as in "most"

Unnatural + prevalence = most. So your point is that most ancient Greek men engaged in pederasty?

3)Perhaps you should read it a couple of times before responding.

Often, I hear people say that there is "no choice" as to whether or not one is "gay." I have yet to see a scientist draw this conclusion. It is very disrespectful to assert your own conclusions over his consensus of the science he has seen.

Thank you. Your rephrase was much clearer. However, I disagree that a gay person's assertion that their gayness was not a choice is not a slight to the scientific community. Rather, it is a recounting of one's own reality. I speak from experience.

I fully admit that I chose to enter into a relationship with my same-sex partner. But I did not choose to have a crush on her, or to get butterflies in my stomach when I saw her. In other words, I chose not to suppress my feelings, and I chose to act on them, but I did not choose to have them.

Science may be conflicted as to why I developed those feelings in the first place, and why some women never develop those feelings toward other women, but my story will remain the same. No disrespect intended.

5)You added that too.

Sorry. Please clarify, then. What was your amputee paragraph about?

 

[IzzyPop]

It shows (at least):

1)If people are like they were 1700 years ago in "natural desires," it certainly is a precedent for people learning to love having sex with boys.
2)It shows that society has an effect on sexual orientation.

I show only that you are confusing sexual acts with sexual orientation. I am straight. If I have sex with a man, it does not make me gay. If I have sex with an underage boy, it does not make me gay. A sick, demented little freak, yes, but homosexual? No. Because I am still primarily attracted to women. Who you have sex with does not define your orientation. Who you are attracted to does. See the difference?

 

[beechy]

It shows (at least):

1)If people are like they were 1700 years ago in "natural desires," it certainly is a precedent for people learning to love having sex with boys.
2)It shows that society has an effect on sexual orientation.

First of all, what is a "natural desire"? Second of all, why can't the fact of pederasty show, for example, that male bisexuality and homosexuality was more widely accepted at that time?

 

[fated]

I show only that you are confusing sexual acts with sexual orientation. I am straight. If I have sex with a man, it does not make me gay. If I have sex with an underage boy, it does not make me gay. A sick, demented little freak, yes, but homosexual? No. Because I am still primarily attracted to women. Who you have sex with does not define your orientation. Who you are attracted to does. See the difference?

Do you think that it is impossible that sexual orientation develops over a lifetime?

 

[fated]

First of all, what is a "natural desire"? Second of all, why can't the fact of pederasty show, for example, that male bisexuality and homosexuality was more widely accepted at that time?

1)"Ultimate sexual orientation"
2)It clearly was.

 

[IzzyPop]

Do you think that it is impossible that sexual orientation develops over a lifetime?

Given that sexual orientation seems to have a lot to do with the hypothalamus and all the homosexuals that I have discussed the matter with all have told me that they knew at a pretty young age that they were different in a significant way, I'd have to say that I do think that changes in orientation are exceedingly rare if not impossible.

How a person views and/or describe their own orientation may change and develop over time as the person adjusts or adapts to what they feel vs. what they are expected to feel by others. But the actuality of orientation is set prior to birth.

 

[selfinflikted]

Given that sexual orientation seems to have a lot to do with the hypothalamus and all the homosexuals that I have discussed the matter with all have told me that they knew at a pretty young age that they were different in a significant way, I'd have to say that I do think that changes in orientation are exceedingly rare if not impossible.

How a person views and/or describe their own orientation may change and develop over time as the person adjusts or adapts to what they feel vs. what they are expected to feel by others. But the actuality of orientation is set prior to birth.

I know that myself and SimplyMe (and probably others) have postulated several times in these threads by now that those who are able to "change" their sexual orientation are probably bisexual to begin with. No one (that I've seen) has really responded to this or taken this into consideration. What does everyone else think? Could this not be a perfectly valid explanation for "homosexuals" that change their orientation? I think that, due to the miserable success rates of reparative therapy, this is a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation for the few who claim to have changed.

 

[fated]

Given that sexual orientation seems to have a lot to do with the hypothalamus and all the homosexuals that I have discussed the matter with all have told me that they knew at a pretty young age that they were different in a significant way, I'd have to say that I do think that changes in orientation are exceedingly rare if not impossible.

How a person views and/or describe their own orientation may change and develop over time as the person adjusts or adapts to what they feel vs. what they are expected to feel by others. But the actuality of orientation is set prior to birth.

That's strange:
"Sexual orientation is one component of a person's identity, which is made up of many other components, such as culture, ethnicity, gender, and personality traits. Sexual orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction that a person feels toward another person. Sexual orientation falls along a continuum. In other words, someone does not have to be exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, but can feel varying degrees of attraction for both genders. Sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime—different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual."

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html

 

[UnitedInChrist]

wow...lots going back and forth here. I'm enjoying reading all the responses. I don't have the time to respond to all, BUT, I do like the posts I'm reading! keep it going!

 

[fated]

I know that myself and SimplyMe (and probably others) have postulated several times in these threads by now that those who are able to "change" their sexual orientation are probably bisexual to begin with. No one (that I've seen) has really responded to this or taken this into consideration. What does everyone else think? Could this not be a perfectly valid explanation for "homosexuals" that change their orientation? I think that, due to the miserable success rates of reparative therapy, this is a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation for the few who claim to have changed.

This is not a bad hypothesis, but I haven't seen any data to hold it up.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

to believe acting on homosexual urges is not sin is ignoring parts of the Bible. i am not saying you are not saved or anything of the sort. i am saying that the trend of cultural Christianity is prevelant and seems to be engaged by your church. regardless, i hope you should be able to see that you made a claim that basically everyone agrees with you except fundamentalists. now you claim it was sarcasm. so which is it? using sarcasm to make a point actually doesn't help the argument. it just clouds someone from seeing what you are really trying to say and what facts you have to back up your argument.

"Cultural Christianity engaged by my church"? That's a new one. Why do you keep mentioning my church? I go to a church..yes. I go to a First Congregational Church...the oldest church in this country, but that has minimal to do with my beliefs. I go to a church to worship among others. My beliefs are representative of ME..not a church.

 

[selfinflikted]

This is not a bad hypothesis, but I haven't seen any data to hold it up.

...

Sexual orientation falls along a continuum. In other words, someone does not have to be exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, but can feel varying degrees of attraction for both genders.

Maybe we're all just a little bi-curious.

 

[IzzyPop]

That's strange:
"Sexual orientation is one component of a person's identity, which is made up of many other components, such as culture, ethnicity, gender, and personality traits. Sexual orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction that a person feels toward another person. Sexual orientation falls along a continuum. In other words, someone does not have to be exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, but can feel varying degrees of attraction for both genders. Sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime—different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual."

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html

That's strange:

It doesn't say a word about changing. The word used is 'develop'. That means orientation has an endpoint that you arrive at. When is that endpoint set? Do you think someone can develop from a 1 to a 6? Or possibly it is saying what I stated, that a person's identification of their sexual orientation develops over a span of time?

 

[fated]

That's strange:

It doesn't say a word about changing. The word used is 'develop'. That means orientation has an endpoint that you arrive at. When is that endpoint set? Do you think someone can develop from a 1 to a 6? Or possibly it is saying what I stated, that a person's identification of their sexual orientation develops over a span of time?

This statement:
"Sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime—different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual."

Is ambiguous in that regard.

 

[fated]

...



Maybe we're all just a little bi-curious.

That appears the be the consensus, although, I hear it generally broken into five points on the continuum.

 

[selfinflikted]

That appears the be the consensus, although, I hear it generally broken into five points on the continuum.

Then, if that's the case I don't see why a very small percentage of the population who mistakenly identify as exclusively homosexual can't "change" their sexual orientation. It makes perfect sense to me and explains why the majority of gays say that they cannot change. It's a simple case of mistaken identity, as it were.