Bushmaster: Corruption

[HumbleSiPilot77]

We cannot comprehend God, whatever we can think of, that is not God.

I can hit back with this so hard, you'd regret posting it. Think of Trinity now.

such anthropomorphism is clear indication to me of human authorship.

Apply your rule above. God's incarnation and entering our time is something YOU CAN NOT COMPREHEND! anthropomorphism is simply a definition you like to tag to it, explain how it happened.

 

[Islam_mulia]

God is even recorded in the OT as having physically appeared to the Jews several times. But the Quran denies this is possible.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of Man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19][/FONT]

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of Man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19][/FONT]

First, show me where Christ LIED! Second, don't tamper with my Scriptures, the verse says "son of man" with no emphasis, talking about mankind, your usage is contextual in New Testament, where Christ calls Himself Son of Man, indicating He is God Incarnate taken up Human Nature.

 

[Secundulus]

such anthropomorphism is clear indication to me of human authorship.

We cannot comprehend God, whatever we can think of, that is not God.
“There is nothing like Him, but He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” (Quran 42:11)
“There is nothing comparable to Him.” (Quran 112:4)

That sounds like Diesm to me. I guess Muslims are not thiests after all.

 

[Islam_mulia]

First, show me where Christ LIED! Second, don't tamper with my Scriptures, the verse says "son of man" with no emphasis, talking about mankind, your usage is contextual in New Testament, where Christ calls Himself Son of Man, indicating He is God Incarnate taken up Human Nature.

Where do you get the idea that a Son of Man is a god?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of Man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19][/FONT]

Does a god really repent, like the Son of Man?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

To say that I will not enter that forum now, doesn't mean that I am afraid of or a sort of that, and I said that I may do that later, and I would register if I found a response, but I actually don't know why you came back and rejected your proposal.

Anyway, it seems you joined and opened a new venue as I wanted. That is all I want, more exposure in the hopes that you might learn.

BTW, I replied in the morning and went to sleep, then I woke up and still found you online, then I went to breakfast and came back and again found you online, you kept chatting with me and it seems that you browsed my site for a while, which seems to me that you had a lot of time today, couldn't you have used in answering my original argument?

BTW, I use a web browser called Firefox2, it has the ability to reload pages automatically, and I set it up and go to bed. All night it refreshes and I stay online while sleeping, now you couldn't think that was possible, could you ?

First of all, I think I said that the Quran told some miracles of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in my 2 last statements.

Ok, and those are?

Second, I didn't object that you have another source of legislation, the sola scriptura argument is a problem between you and the Protestants I have nothing to do with it, unless it contradicts the Bible.

Wow, stick to your guns, if Sola Scriptura is an argument between Protestants and Apostolic Christians, then why do you side with the Sola Scriptura argument and how does this even pose a problem? Apparently, this "I have nothing to do with..." is a common excuse by your standards, use it less. I can see you have something to so with it, because you tried to use that argument against me. Sola Scriptura by the way, doesn't denote anything towards intercession of the saints.

I didn't say that there is no Injeel, all what I said is that I have nothing to do with its place, besides I already pointed out that it could be the case that some true scripts (from the Injil) could be present in the Bible but that doesn't mean that the Bible also contains false scripts.

You are shooting in the dark as usual in this matter. You gotta back 'em up buddy, you may start with how did Greek word Euangelion make it into Arabic by injeel? Which ones are the false scripts? Please use Quran to measure this and I shoot you down. Injeel by definition is a different book, which is not a collection as OT/NT. There must be some proof it in existence, until the Gospels show up. Because that is when they would be taking over according to your theory. So injeel, has been revealed, collected and circulated FULLY between Christ's ascension AND first Gospel around 50 AD ... about 20 years... Did you know that it is 163 years between the revelation of the first verse of the Qur'an and the oldest known copy?

I dont know Bushmaster. Christians have a funny way of interpreting the bible.

How do you judge their interpretation? Based on what knowledge?

After all, you can ask to be a millionaire tomorrow, and you will be. In fact, everyone who asks, receives!

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8)

Christians are not following carnal pleasures as muslims do, is that what this verse means? Get rich scheme? Or is it somethig tied to God's will?

How about the story of Immanuel?... for a start.

What about it?

It is a miracle from God. Muhammad (pbuh) was only a man, just like Jesus, the son of Mary.

A miracle that develops 163 years from first revelation to the preserved copy in Britain... it is said to be the same as in Heaven. We don't call Christ Son of Mary, Quran does, which confuses Him with Muhammad, or Muhammad confuses who Christ really is? You pick...

You mean like what is written here:

Sts. Joachim and Anne
Parents of Our Lady

Read again, tradition, disprove tradition to me, especially oral.

Ok. Can you pls provide me with a guideline that I can follow to prove that the bible is not historical? Give me your parameters, your criteria, and we can discuss further. Otherwise, I point to you one example of the non-historicity of the bible, you will say I am off-mark. Can we agree?

We can agree that they are historical for a change because you can't seem to establish otherwise. If I gave you your tools of trade then what good are you? Gospels are historical, by manuscripts, documentary and archaeologically... show me a document that was produced as much as it was...

 

[Islam_mulia]

We can agree that they are historical for a change because you can't seem to establish otherwise. If I gave you your tools of trade then what good are you? Gospels are historical, by manuscripts, documentary and archaeologically... show me a document that was produced as much as it was...

You noticed I decided to ignore the rest and concentrate on this which is more relevant to the OP.

Right, since you cannot give me any guidelines to present my case, can I propose the following to test the historicity of the bible?

1) the stories in the bible should not contradict modern-day findings

2) the characters of the bible are real and have support of old documents which are deemed authentic and not corrupted

3) Any other points which you may want to highlight

Please let me know if the above guidelines are sufficient enough to discuss the historicity of the bible.

 

[randomman]

I can hit back with this so hard, you'd regret posting it. Think of Trinity now.

Apply your rule above. God's incarnation and entering our time is something YOU CAN NOT COMPREHEND! anthropomorphism is simply a definition you like to tag to it, explain how it happened.

... star wars movie is much better than this

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Where do you get the idea that a Son of Man is a god?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of Man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19][/FONT]

Does a god really repent, like the Son of Man?

Are you blind or you do not read what I previously wrote? First define and determine exegetically that "son of man" carries the same character as Christ ascribes to Himself about 80 times in the New Testament. After that show us in the same line of this logical reasoning that Christ lied and repented of it therefore He is the son of man, not God.

And further I have Gill's, Henry's and Scofield's comments ready. Whenever you need them.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

... star wars movie is much better than this

So why don't you go watch it and save us from your trolling?

 

[randomman]

Are you blind or you do not read what I previously wrote? First define and determine exegetically that "son of man" carries the same character as Christ ascribes to Himself about 80 times in the New Testament. After that show us in the same line of this logical reasoning that Christ lied and repented of it therefore He is the son of man, not God.

And further I have Gill's, Henry's and Scofield's comments ready. Whenever you need them.

wow ........ i never heard this before ... you call this logic

no wounder people are leaving christianity for islam

 

[Islam_mulia]

Are you blind or you do not read what I previously wrote? First define and determine exegetically that "son of man" carries the same character as Christ ascribes to Himself about 80 times in the New Testament. After that show us in the same line of this logical reasoning that Christ lied and repented of it therefore He is the son of man, not God.

My point really.

You wrote that "Christ calls Himself Son of Man, indicating He is God Incarnate taken up Human Nature" so I asked where do you get the idea that the son of man is a god?.

Secondly, I dont think Jesus calls himself directly as a Son of Man, although some say he said it in the 2nd person. Why he failed to openly address himself as a son of man is beyond my understanding, for he could surely have raised teh hope of Jews who were expecting a deliverer?

Thirdly, your logic sucks. If I cannot prove that Jesus did not lie and repent for it, he must be God?

And further I have Gill's, Henry's and Scofield's comments ready. Whenever you need them.

How I wish you could just write to me in your own words?

 

[elijah115]

I thought the bible says the true followers of Christ can do fantastic things, even Superman may look weak... yes the bible says Christians can move mountains. You cant, and I cannot say you are a true follower of Christ.

It depends on if you understand what you are claiming to be able to interpret in the first place.

In the bible, it says

in John 13:35 "35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Why do you think Christ would define his disciples by who can perform useless miracles?

I find it wierd as well that you claim to believe in God but your idea of the miraculous is no more different than that of an atheist.

Sounds like a defeatist statement. You are darn right the OT NEVER prophecised Jesus.

I didn't say that. It seems like you're content having a conversation with yourself. The OT does prophecy Jesus, and it also prophecies Muhammad as a false prophet not a geniune prophet.

How is that a slander on a prophet of God? Oh, you can also discuss the prophecies of Muhammad (pbuh) if you like.

And what are the prophecies of Muhammad in the bible? Deut 18:18, Lol? Was he so sinless, you have to pray for him every time you mention his name?

Can you prove to me Imran was not the father of Mary?

What do you consider proof, when anything outside of the quran is unacceptable?

It is a historical fact that NO documents have been found, which have been interpolated, that says Jesus was crucified.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Isaiah 53, Psalm 22 these are all separate books written by different authors saying he was crucified, even 5:117 in the Quran says he died. This is historical fact, when you written a date, it will end 2008 AD. Please explain how you reach the conclusion that no documents have been found.

Yes, tell us why you think it is a historical fact that Jesus died.

It's not a thought, it's knowledge. If you asked me to explain why 1+1 = 2, should I answer you? Yes or no.

 

[elijah115]

My point really.

You wrote that "Christ calls Himself Son of Man, indicating He is God Incarnate taken up Human Nature" so I asked where do you get the idea that the son of man is a god?.

Secondly, I dont think Jesus calls himself directly as a Son of Man, although some say he said it in the 2nd person. Why he failed to openly address himself as a son of man is beyond my understanding, for he could surely have raised teh hope of Jews who were expecting a deliverer?

Thirdly, your logic sucks. If I cannot prove that Jesus did not lie and repent for it, he must be God?


How I wish you could just write to me in your own words?

Revelation 22:12-17

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Revelation 1:8

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

There is no doubt who Jesus claimed to be. The question is whether you believe him or not. If you claim to believe everyone who is a prophet of Islam, show it by showing that you believe what Isa Al Masih taught. Otherwise, your arguments are and will be ineffective, and we will continue wasting several threads for 3 more years.

 

[Islam_mulia]

It depends on if you understand what you are claiming to be able to interpret in the first place.

In the bible, it says

in John 13:35 "35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Why do you think Christ would define his disciples by who can perform useless miracles?

I find it wierd as well that you claim to believe in God but your idea of the miraculous is no more different than that of an atheist.

So, Elijah, are you a disciple of Jesus or do you think you are a follower of Jesus? How does Jn 13:35 relevant to you if you are not a disciple of Christ?

But even if you are not a disciple, and has a faith the size of a mustard seed, you can move mountains, which I have not seen Christian performing the feat:

He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:20)

Dont get me wrong. It's not that I dont believe in miracles, but the way the bible writers describe the unbelievable, I am tempted to believe superheroes are not made in hollywood.

I didn't say that. It seems like you're content having a conversation with yourself. The OT does prophecy Jesus, and it also prophecies Muhammad as a false prophet not a geniune prophet.

Where does the OT prophecise about Jesus and where does it say Muhammad (pbuh) is not a true prophet?

And what are the prophecies of Muhammad in the bible? Deut 18:18, Lol?

Did I mentioned that? Why do you think it was not referring to MUhammad?

What do you consider proof, when anything outside of the quran is unacceptable?

Again, I did not mention that. If you think that the Quran is wrong to say that Imran was the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus, then tell me why I'm wrong.

I make the same effort when Bushmaster mentioned some names.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Isaiah 53, Psalm 22 these are all separate books written by different authors saying he was crucified, even 5:117 in the Quran says he died. This is historical fact, when you written a date, it will end 2008 AD. Please explain how you reach the conclusion that no documents have been found.

You based your reply on the bible as a historical document which actually I asked Bushmaster to discuss further. The bible contains stories that cannot be supported by modern day findings. Will that say much about using the bible to prove Jesus was crucified?

I also mention that are no extrabiblical documents to prove Jesus was crucified.

It's not a thought, it's knowledge. If you asked me to explain why 1+1 = 2, should I answer you? Yes or no.

What is knowledge? I know 1+1=2 and 1+1+1=3 (not 1).

 

[Islam_mulia]

There is no doubt who Jesus claimed to be. The question is whether you believe him or not. If you claim to believe everyone who is a prophet of Islam, show it by showing that you believe what Isa Al Masih taught. Otherwise, your arguments are and will be ineffective, and we will continue wasting several threads for 3 more years.

Sadly, what you posted has nothing to do with this:

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of Man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? [Numbers 23:19]

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

wow ........ i never heard this before ... you call this logic

no wounder people are leaving christianity for islam

That is right, it is "wonder", Mr. Advanced Engineer, we use a different logic than you assume... Don't see you answer it, though, just trolling...

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

My point really.

You wrote that "Christ calls Himself Son of Man, indicating He is God Incarnate taken up Human Nature" so I asked where do you get the idea that the son of man is a god?.

Not a god, THE GOD! Christ is under oath, question: Are you the Messiah, Son of the Blessed One. Answer: I AM! And you shall see Son of Man, sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. He is directly relating to messianic prophecy in the book of Daniel. Further, tons of other references of Him in the Scriptures as being Christ, Son of God. Now you tell me, why I should ditch all those, and assume Numbers 23 addresses Christ as son of man, just a man? What is your exegetical reason?

Secondly, I dont think Jesus calls himself directly as a Son of Man, although some say he said it in the 2nd person. Why he failed to openly address himself as a son of man is beyond my understanding, for he could surely have raised teh hope of Jews who were expecting a deliverer?

I don't know, why does Quran use different persons in narration? Christ gets the point through.

Thirdly, your logic sucks. If I cannot prove that Jesus did not lie and repent for it, he must be God?

Sorry that is the simple premise you can not answer. If logic suggests something and you can't establish that, it sucks right? If you can't prove that Christ did not lie and did not repent for it, then he is not the son of man of Numbers 23 you are trying to identify him with, because God is not a man that he lies, and repents for, a regular man, like yourself, but this is Christ. Establish the requirement of this simple premise please...

How I wish you could just write to me in your own words?

Why? Look at this analogy... A+B=C is an equation, student A answers it to an audience hundreds of years ago. Today student B faces the same audience but he doesn't waste his time to explain the same equation, because it is already done, he lays it out as student A did and moves onto the next equation. Can the audience prove student A was wrong in his answer to the equation? No, move along... I hope you get it.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

What is knowledge? I know 1+1=2 and 1+1+1=3 (not 1).

You explain God by muslim math now? How about you multiply 3 ones because we don't believe in a summation of individual, separate gods.

 

[Islam_mulia]

You explain God by muslim math now? How about you multiply 3 ones because we don't believe in a summation of individual, separate gods.

You mean 1 x 1 x 1 = 1?

Or

1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x ... 1 = 1?

How may are there?