Bushmaster: Corruption

[HumbleSiPilot77]

If you read the book yourself won't you understand? If i was to explain it to you i am sure I would get accused of misinterpreting or twisting as many Christians who do not want to hear the truth accuse others of.So I have posted the link the name is clear William Burgon was not an unknown.

He was a KJV only staunch Bible defender. He didn't argue against the Scriptures, he argued against other collection methods of manuscripts other than Textus Receptus. If you visit his society's webpage you will see that his work is against Westcott & Hort manuscripts, not Bible.

X. CORRUPTION BY THE ORTHODOX.

I know that Eastern Orthodox Christians did not tamper with Scriptures as we hold the Gospel Holy. However, I do have a question, do you want to suggest and argue this point in the Orthodox forum, that Orthodox corrupted the Scriptures? I just need a yes or no...

I posted a link in one of my threads about the connection between Judaism and christianity with the far Ancient Eastern religions.This link is a series of classes from Yale Uni's comparative studies Course.It is called an introduction to the new testament.It describes antropomorphism and how it crept into the Bible. How it is not simply a definition as some declare.Many Know alls decided not to even check out what the professor spoke about. Now they ask for explanations.
here is the link go check it out

Anthropomorphism concern of yours has been answered in your thread. Further, like I already mentioned, it can be found in the Quran also. I have no problem with it, I am created in the image of God, so He has a similar image to myself, which is Christ Jesus.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anthropomorphism concern of yours has been answered in your thread. Further, like I already mentioned, it can be found in the Quran also. I have no problem with it, I am created in the image of God, so He has a similar image to myself, which is Christ Jesus.

You guys throw too many big words out there for me. Remember this thread on a muslim implying the "mary" of the NT was a "hermaphrodite". That was a new one on me also.

http://christianforums.com/t5859919-marypbuh-was-a-hermaphrodite.html&page=6&highlight=mary

Most probably Mary(peace be upon her) was also a hermaphrodite, by will of GOD.
So she got pregnant herself. She was NOT carrying SON of God.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Where did Augustine say so? Please cite me your reference.

Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xxxxi, p.387.

Do you know that the didascalia orders you not to shave your beard, not to wear gold and that your wife covers her head?

And?

That's enough for now

OK.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

You guys throw too many big words out there for me. Remember this thread on a muslim implying the "mary" of the NT was a "hermaphrodite". That was a new one on me also.

http://christianforums.com/t5859919-marypbuh-was-a-hermaphrodite.html&page=6&highlight=mary

Most probably Mary(peace be upon her) was also a hermaphrodite, by will of GOD.
So she got pregnant herself. She was NOT carrying SON of God.

 

[Secundulus]

Why do the heathen rage against the mother of Jesus?

Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

From the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:
It is truly meet and right to bless you, O Theotokos, Ever blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, Without defilement you gave birth to God the Word. True Theotokos, we magnify you!

From the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great:
All of creation rejoices in you, O Full of Grace, The assembly of Angels and the race of men. O Sanctified Temple and Rational Paradise! O Glory of Virgins! From you, God was incarnate and became a child, our God before the ages. He made your body into a throne, and your womb He made more spacious than the heavens. All of creation rejoices in you, O Full of Grace! Glory to you!

 

[Secundulus]

And from John Calvin!

when the name of the Son of God is given to him who is born of a Virgin, and the Virgin herself is called the mother of our Lord (Luke 1:32, 43).
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=46401602#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=46401602#_ftnref1Jean Calvin and Henry Beveridge, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Translation of: Institutio Christianae Religionis.; Reprint, With New Introd. Originally Published: Edinburgh : Calvin Translation Society, 1845-1846. (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), II, xiv, 4.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I myself do not elevate the "mary" of the NT any more than any other woman in the Bible. She was simply a "vessel" for the Lord just as Paul was a "vessel" for the Lord and I rate Paul much, much higher than the "mary" .

But then, the Muslims debunk Paul anyway.

http://christianforums.com/t4410009-can-muhammad-and-paul-be-buddies.html&page=4&highlight=paul
Can Muhammad and Paul be buddies

Acts 9:15 Said yet toward him, the Lord , `Be you going!, that a vessel of choice is to Me this one,of the to bear the Name of Me in sight of nations and kings--sons besides of Israel;

 

[Secundulus]

I myself do not elevate the "mary" of the NT any more than any other woman in the Bible. She was simply a "vessel" for the Lord just as Paul was a "vessel" for the Lord and I rate Paul much, much higher than the "mary" .

I understand your viewpoint. But Jesus lives. And while he was fully God, he was also fully man. No man takes kindly to his mother being disrespected. While you may disagree to whether or not she is able to hear our prayers, we should be able to agree that she is worthy of respect as the one whom God chose. Peace.

 

[elijah115]

I understand your viewpoint. But Jesus lives. And while he was fully God, he was also fully man. No man takes kindly to his mother being disrespected. While you may disagree to whether or not she is able to hear our prayers, we should be able to agree that she is worthy of respect as the one whom God chose. Peace.

Not when you start praising Mary so hard non-christians (and/or other christians) can't distinguish between whether it's idolatry or supposedly respect.

Despite Mary being chosen to bear Christ, this is written:

26Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first."

27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

28He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

again it was written:

47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."[a]

48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Matt 12:47-50

31Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
33"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.

34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Mark 3:31-34

A balanced reading of the bible is what is asked about Mary. Yet I'm reading "more than"etc in your praises towards Mary.

Just asking you to be aware that speaking in christianese or ignoring who your audience is is not the best what to communicate understandably.

How did we get side tracked? Have you lot no focus? You hear the word "Mary" and launch into a preprogrammed praises.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Not when you start praising Mary so hard non-christians (and/or other christians) can't distinguish between whether it's idolatry or supposedly respect.

Their misunderstanding is their problem. Theotokos has always been revered above all, refer to 4th ecumenical council.

Reformation comes along and chops off tradition, that is not Church's problem either... You don't quote the bible to the church that gave it to you.

Early Christian Fathers concluded "More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim" that speaks volumes about her.

We hear the word "Mary" and launch into a preprogrammed praises? We actually sign the cross. Shame on those who destroyed the fullness of Christian faith that lived 1600 years.

If you are willing to lose track and argue Christian history, we do it somewhere else. You do not improperly rebuke your brothers. That said, this is enough show for the muhammadan to jump on it. Thanks to both of you, LLJ and elijah... very much appreciated.

 

[elijah115]

Their misunderstanding is their problem. Theotokos has always been revered above all, refer to 4th ecumenical council.

Reformation comes along and chops off tradition, that is not Church's problem either... You don't quote the bible to the church that gave it to you.

Early Christian Fathers concluded "More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim" that speaks volumes about her.

We hear the word "Mary" and launch into a preprogrammed praises? We actually sign the cross. Shame on those who destroyed the fullness of Christian faith that lived 1600 years.

If you are willing to lose track and argue Christian history, we do it somewhere else. You do not improperly rebuke your brothers. That said, this is enough show for the muhammadan to jump on it. Thanks to both of you, LLJ and elijah... very much appreciated.

I don't have time for controversies and arguments. I could them a distraction from focusing on glorifying God. If you feel my comment was improper, I apologise for that. Never the less I think we need to keep some sort of perspective on what we say. We can't pretend like what we say doesn't matter and how we say it. God's words are more important than the traditions of any church (be that lower case or capital). Compared to God's words every man is a liar, in my view.

 

[Secundulus]

How did we get side tracked? Have you lot no focus? You hear the word "Mary" and launch into a preprogrammed praises.

Not really. This discussion has been going on for over a week during which time multiple people have explained historically and personally what we believe and why it is not idolatry.

Rather than accept our argument or even simply disagree, the Muslim in question continues to press home his assertion that we are idolaters.

He doesn't want to understand, he just wants to prove us wrong in an attempt to elevate Islam. I am tired of these attacks and tired of rationally explaining our position only to have it continually thrown back in my face.

This is why on this particular subject I am using this tone and also why I am posting those ridiculous videos of unbalanced Muslim Clerics.

As long as he continues in his mode of trying to discredit Christianity on a Christian Forum I will continue to aggressively attempt to divert this focus.

When he, and others, stop in their mission to discredit Christianity, and return to reasonable discussion, I will do the same.

 

[elijah115]

Not really. This discussion has been going on for over a week during which time multiple people have explained historically and personally what we believe and why it is not idolatry.

Rather than accept our argument or even simply disagree, the Muslim in question continues to press home his assertion that we are idolaters.

He doesn't want to understand, he just wants to prove us wrong in an attempt to elevate Islam. I am tired of these attacks and tired of rationally explaining our position only to have it continually thrown back in my face.

This is why on this particular subject I am using this tone and also why I am posting those ridiculous videos of unbalanced Muslim Clerics.

As long as he continues in his mode of trying to discredit Christianity on a Christian Forum I will continue to aggressively attempt to divert this focus.

When he, and others, stop in their mission to discredit Christianity, and return to reasonable discussion, I will do the same.

I don't know if it will work. Maybe it will. My approach has been to limit my effort when people don't want to learn what christ taught. Anyway, let us return to the topic.

 

[MK11]

Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xxxxi, p.387.

Thanks, now my question is : Is it so easy for people to remove scriptures when they don't meet their egos? Where is God's order not to add or diminish? Where is the threat in Revelation which you kept talking about:

Why would anybody dare to add or remove portions of Scripture, when faced with the warning in Rev 22:18-19: ‘If anybody adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anybody takes words away from this book of prophecy God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city....’

If someone tried to do this with the Quran, hundreds of Muslim children will stop him saying: "You are a liar", not that it will be that case that there is a diversity between Christians till now among this story.

And?

Are you committed to what the didascalia orders you?

 

[Secundulus]

What I think some people are misunderstanding is how Christian doctrine is derived. It is not simply from scripture alone. Richard Hooker described it as resting upon the three legs of Scripture and Tradition and Reason.

In his book, The Laws Of Ecclesiastical Polity, he wrote, "On this foundation, all positive laws of Church and State are developed from Scriptural revelation, ancient tradition, reason, and experience."

If you are arguing with a Catholic or Orthodox Christian, you cannot simply quote scripture without consideration to what the Church has officially said (tradition).

We believe that Jesus Christ instituted a Church and appointed Apostles to lead it. These Apostles in turn appointed their successors which we know know as Bishops. Every one of our Bishops can trace his line of succession to one of the original Apostles.

It is the job of these Bishops to interpret the scriptures and with the assistance of the Holy Spirit speak to define doctrine. It is not for an individual to interpret scriptures on his own to determine his own private doctrine.

" So we have confirmation of the words of the prophets; and you will be right to pay attention to it as to a lamp for lighting a way through the dark, until the dawn comes and the morning star rises in your minds. At the same time, we must recognise that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual. For no prophecy ever came from human initiative. When people spoke for God it was the Holy Spirit that moved them." (2 Peter 1:19-21, NJB)

In the first sentence of the above quotation, St. Peter is referring to himself and the other Apostles when he says "we".

Your, and others, arguments are generally based upon the notion of "Sola Scriptura", that is scripture alone. We do not view this as a valid argument. Sola Scriptura and the personal interpretation of scriptural truth is a Protestant belief only. It does not apply to Catholics and Orthodox. Understand this basic truth and we will have an easier time understanding each other.

 

[elijah115]

Thanks, now my question is : Is it so easy for people to remove scriptures when they don't meet their egos? Where is God's order not to add or diminish? Where is the threat in Revelation which you kept talking about:


If someone tried to do this with the Quran, hundreds of Muslim children will stop him saying: "You are a liar", not that it will be that case that there is a diversity between Christians till now among this story.


Are you committed to what the didascalia orders you?

This may not have occurred to you but it needs to be said. Amongst the greatest offenders as far as twisting the scripture or corrupting it are overkeen muslims. Do you realise how much time we have to waste on these threads correcting their lack of regard for the word of God? There are more important things in christianity but sadly we have to deal with milk instead of meat so much.

 

[elijah115]

my laptop's retarded.

 

[elijah115]

What I think some people are misunderstanding is how Christian doctrine is derived. It is not simply from scripture alone. Richard Hooker described it as resting upon the three legs of Scripture and Tradition and Reason.

In his book, The Laws Of Ecclesiastical Polity, he wrote, "On this foundation, all positive laws of Church and State are developed from Scriptural revelation, ancient tradition, reason, and experience."

If you are arguing with a Catholic or Orthodox Christian, you cannot simply quote scripture without consideration to what the Church has officially said (tradition).

We believe that Jesus Christ instituted a Church and appointed Apostles to lead it. These Apostles in turn appointed their successors which we know know as Bishops. Every one of our Bishops can trace his line of succession to one of the original Apostles.

It is the job of these Bishops to interpret the scriptures and with the assistance of the Holy Spirit speak to define doctrine. It is not for an individual to interpret scriptures on his own to determine his own private doctrine.

" So we have confirmation of the words of the prophets; and you will be right to pay attention to it as to a lamp for lighting a way through the dark, until the dawn comes and the morning star rises in your minds. At the same time, we must recognise that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual. For no prophecy ever came from human initiative. When people spoke for God it was the Holy Spirit that moved them." (2 Peter 1:19-21, NJB)

In the first sentence of the above quotation, St. Peter is referring to himself and the other Apostles when he says "we".

Your, and others, arguments are generally based upon the notion of "Sola Scriptura", that is scripture alone. We do not view this as a valid argument. Sola Scriptura and the personal interpretation of scriptural truth is a Protestant belief only. It does not apply to Catholics and Orthodox. Understand this basic truth and we will have an easier time understanding each other.

I understand this, what you don't understand is the value I place on tradition compared to the word of God. I don't view them as equal. I'm not sola scriptura and I don't care about any divisions or distinctions christians want to lump themselves into. What matters is who does the will of God, and worships him in spirit and truth through Christ's teachings.

 

[Secundulus]

I understand this, what you don't understand is the value I place on tradition compared to the word of God. I don't view them as equal. I'm not sola scriptura and I don't care about any divisions or distinctions christians what to lump themselves into. What matters is who does the will of God, through Christ's teachings.

Sorry, I was addressing that towards the Muslims.

Also, I wasn't intending to belittle Protestants. I have been learning theology from Southern Baptist Ministers and even they value tradition.

Catholic and conservative Protestant beliefs on this matter are much smaller than most believe. Catholic tradition can build upon scripture, but it cannot contradict it. Scripture remains the bedrock.

Also, I'm not particularly concerned with denominations either. However, I believe that it is God's will that we be united since Christ said those very words. I also believe that at this particular point in history, the only possible way to be united is by reestablishing communion with Rome and once again speaking with one voice.

The fact that on this very forum there are subforums where people argue that one billion other Christians follow the harlot of Babylon. This is an indictment on us and makes us look like fools to the world.

How can we expect anyone to take Christianity seriously when we are in such a state?