zippy2006

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The Buddhist idea of sunyata, or emptiness, is a central tenet of the Madhyamaka school of Mahayana Buddhism. My basic understanding of this concept is that it is a correlate of the Buddhist idea of dependent arising such that all phenomena are dependent/contingent and do not have being in and of themselves. Therefore everything is "empty," or "hollow." Yet at times emptiness is spoken of as a reality unto itself rather than merely a consequence of the way in which all phenomena exist. For example, in the Britannica article linked below sunyata is said to be "the undifferentiation out of which all apparent entities, distinctions, and dualities arise." In this way emptiness seems to be understood as a reality that can be experienced which gives birth to all phenomena, not unlike the ground of being.

This thread is meant to be a discussion of sunyata generally, but I am also wondering if sunyata is thought to be something which exists in and can be experienced in itself, or else is merely a description of a consequence of the Buddhist doctrine of dependent arising. Thoughts?

 
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Romans 8

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My suggestion, after spending some time in the false religion of Buddhism, would be to round up all your books, bowls, incense, and prayer beads, and donate them to your closest landfill.

Buddhism is praying to demons. The meditations prepare you to become a vessel for fallen angels.

mahayana deities - Google Search

All of eastern religion share the same source. They are of the enemy. The counterculture of the 60's really pushed this on western society through bands like the Beatles and the hippy movement led by CIA agents such as Timothy Leary.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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archer75

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As a total amateur, I'll also say that I wonder about how useful such fine distinctions are to me, who have not experienced such states of concentration as Buddhist practices can lead to. I mean, the philosophy behind it does sound interesting and attractive, but without the mental discipline needed, I wonder what of the philosophy can be more than words to me.

That said, I'm interested to see where the thread goes, and if you get any answers on here.
 
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zippy2006

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I know that some Buddhists linger about the forums, so hopefully they will have something to add. I am not sure which of them follow the Mahayana tradition, but commentary on sunyata from other Buddhist traditions is also possible and desirable.

The connection between religious philosophy and religious experience is always complicated. Indeed, the same question of utility arises in the Christian mystical tradition. Apart from speculative theology, one practical use of mystical maps is their ability to guide you into sound places. Deep prayer can be confusing at times, and thus maps are desirable (if somewhat limited). As with any road trip, it is best to have the map in hand before you embark on the journey.

Finally, there are inter-religious connections at stake in both the experiential and descriptive interpretations of sunyata, namely with God seen as the ground of being from which everything arises, and also with God seen as the one who has being in himself with all other (created) realities being contingent, dependent, and "empty." One is reminded of the line from St. Catherine of Siena's dialogue, "I am He who is; you are she who is not." Of course the analogy falters due to the fact that Buddhists do not believe in God, but the characteristics of the experiential sunyata seem worth inquiring into.
 
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archer75

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I know that some Buddhists linger about the forums, so hopefully they will have something to add. I am not sure which of them follow the Mahayana tradition, but commentary on sunyata from other Buddhist traditions is also possible and desirable.

The connection between religious philosophy and religious experience is always complicated. Indeed, the same question of utility arises in the Christian mystical tradition. Apart from speculative theology, one practical use of mystical maps is their ability to guide you into sound places. Deep prayer can be confusing at times, and thus maps are desirable (if somewhat limited). As with any road trip, it is best to have the map in hand before you embark on the journey.

Finally, there are inter-religious connections at stake in both the experiential and descriptive interpretations of sunyata, namely with God seen as the ground of being from which everything arises, and also with God seen as the one who has being in himself with all other (created) realities being contingent, dependent, and "empty." One is reminded of the line from St. Catherine of Siena's dialogue, "I am He who is; you are she who is not." Of course the analogy falters due to the fact that Buddhists do not believe in God, but the characteristics of the experiential sunyata seem worth inquiring into.
I am interested in the inter-religious connections as well. The answers I am familiar with polarize into two types:

  • "Buddhists are insane and worship nothing. Their practices are all demonic / satanic and any appearance of the slightest similarity between Buddhist practice and Christian mysticism is itself demonic."
  • "There's nothing to say, both are simply reflexes of basic religious insight."
So I will shut up now and hope to hear something else from those who know more.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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My suggestion, after spending some time in the false religion of Buddhism, would be to round up all your books, bowls, incense, and prayer beads, and donate them to your closest landfill.

Buddhism is praying to demons. The meditations prepare you to become a vessel for fallen angels.

mahayana deities - Google Search

All of eastern religion share the same source. They are of the enemy. The counterculture of the 60's really pushed this on western society through bands like the Beatles and the hippy movement led by CIA agents such as Timothy Leary.

Just my 2 cents.
You can keep your 2 cents. Timothy Leary a CIA agent? More likely a CIA target.
 
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FireDragon76

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The Buddhist idea of sunyata, or emptiness, is a central tenet of the Madhyamaka school of Mahayana Buddhism. My basic understanding of this concept is that it is a correlate of the Buddhist idea of dependent arising such that all phenomena are dependent/contingent and do not have being in and of themselves. Therefore everything is "empty," or "hollow." Yet at times emptiness is spoken of as a reality unto itself rather than merely a consequence of the way in which all phenomena exist. For example, in the Britannica article linked below sunyata is said to be "the undifferentiation out of which all apparent entities, distinctions, and dualities arise." In this way emptiness seems to be understood as a reality that can be experienced which gives birth to all phenomena, not unlike the ground of being.

This thread is meant to be a discussion of sunyata generally, but I am also wondering if sunyata is thought to be something which exists in and can be experienced in itself, or else is merely a description of a consequence of the Buddhist doctrine of dependent arising. Thoughts?


In mystical forms of Buddhism, such as Zen or Vajrayana, yes, Emptiness is meant to be realized for oneself, typically through meditation and spiritual disciplines.

There are some similarities between Buddhist and Christian mysticism, I can attest to that through personal experience. Whether they are identical in substance, I don't know.

The Mahyana Buddhist notion of Sunyata seems to lend itself to this sense of a sort of wonderous but tragic feeling where you become aware of everything arising and perishing together at the same time. Reality takes on a dream-like or luminous quality. It's sort of awe inspiring, actually, sort of like what Rudolf Otto wrote about the experience of the Numinous in his work, The Idea of the Holy.

But you know, I'm always reminded of what the Japanese poet Issa said about all this, "The dewdrop word is the dewdrop world... and yet".
 
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zippy2006

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In mystical forms of Buddhism, such as Zen or Vajrayana, yes, Emptiness is meant to be realized for oneself, typically through meditation and spiritual disciplines.

Thanks. I guess I'm wondering what it means to "realize Emptiness for oneself." Supposing we are speaking on the level of experience, does it mean that one experiences the emptiness of things, or rather that one experiences the ground of emptiness itself, that from which things arise and cease?

The Mahyana Buddhist notion of Sunyata seems to lend itself to this sense of a sort of wonderous but tragic feeling where you become aware of everything arising and perishing together at the same time. Reality takes on a dream-like quality. It's sort of awe inspiring, actually, sort of like what Rudolf Otto wrote about the experience of the Numinous in his work, The Idea of the Holy.

Although I have experienced what Otto described, I have never experienced the depths of it at the "sample rate" that Buddhists attest to. Indeed my experience has been closer to Heidegger's "disclosure of Being." There are certainly many paradigms available, but the Buddhistic reduction (to, say, simultaneous arising and perishing, or expansion and contraction) is elegant but somewhat unsatisfactory to me. Perhaps it comes across as too scientific. In any case I still find it extremely useful on the natural plane, and it is of course consistent with Buddhist logic.
 
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FireDragon76

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Thanks. I guess I'm wondering what it means to "realize Emptiness for oneself." Supposing we are speaking on the level of experience, does it mean that one experiences the emptiness of things, or rather that one experiences the ground of emptiness itself, that from which things arise and cease?

Mahayana Buddhism is a kind of apophatic transcendentalism, so they would be reluctant to talk about a ground in the sense that Christians understand God. But in doctrine, there is the concept of Dharmakaya, which is roughly analogous to the "ground of being" (indeed, in Tibetan Buddhism, it is described as "the pure light of Emptiness"). However, various Mahayana and Vajrayana schools differ in just how they interpret concepts like Shunyata or Dharmakaya. It's roughly analogous to the differences between various Protestant sects. For instance, the Dalai Lama's Gelugpa sect says that it's merely the emptiness of things, whereas some East Asian, and other Tibetan sects, see emptiness as more substantial, similar to Taoism's emphasis on Original Nature. The ancient Yogacara school saw all phenomena as a manifestation of Mind (sort of like Jung), and that influenced a great deal of Tibetan Buddhism especially.

Although I have experienced what Otto described, I have never experienced the depths of it at the "sample rate" that Buddhists attest to. Indeed my experience has been closer to Heidegger's "disclosure of Being." There are certainly many paradigms available, but the Buddhistic reduction (to, say, simultaneous arising and perishing, or expansion and contraction) is elegant but somewhat unsatisfactory to me. Perhaps it comes across as too scientific. In any case I still find it extremely useful on the natural plane, and it is of course consistent with Buddhist logic.

There's alot of similarities between Heidegger and mysticism in general.
 
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FireDragon76

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My suggestion, after spending some time in the false religion of Buddhism, would be to round up all your books, bowls, incense, and prayer beads, and donate them to your closest landfill.

Buddhism is praying to demons. The meditations prepare you to become a vessel for fallen angels.

I practiced Buddhism during a very dark time in my life and I can't attest to that. If anything, I think it kept me away from absolute despair and suicide. When I was walked away from the Orthodox Church, frustrated and feeling dejected, and I was told I most likely had a neoroblastoma by my family doctor, I practiced a non-sectarian Pure Land Buddhism and practiced the Nembutsu with a small Buddhist lay group. It was a mixture of Chinese and Japanese Pure Land. The nonjudgmentalism of Amida Buddha was a refreshing change from being told that you have to meet the high demands of a religious group. I learned about hospitality and compassion and faith all over again. The compassion of the doctors and nurses who oversaw my care also was a grace of sorts compared to a priest who simply belittled any efforts I made to be a good Christian.

In the past I have also had experience with Titch Nhat Hanh's Order of Interbeing, which was a humanistic Zen group, and I occasionally miss the Dharma discussions we had and the meditation, at times, and seeing how people practicing the Dharma helped them deal with alcoholism and other problems.

Methodist theologians like John Cobb have done a great deal of work in dialogue with Buddhism, particularly Shin (Pure Land) Buddhism.

FWIW, he's an article on a personal experience of Pure Land Buddhism, simply called "Born Again Buddhist". I think it demonstrates the appeal of this approach quite well:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/born-again-buddhist-2/

This kind of subjective realization is the cornerstone of the experience I have called being “born again.” Admittedly, I have appropriated a Christian term to express myself here, and one generally not held in much favor among Western Buddhists. But I have discovered in my own experience of “birth” what must have been at the bottom of Christ’s teaching in the Gospel of John. Thus, I find no reason to exclude Christians from my Pure Land. All are welcome there.


I think there's alot of similarity between Paul Tillich's approach to Lutheranism, influenced by Heidegger, and Pure Land Buddhism. Tillich summed up the Gospel as simply "I am accepted", which is very similar to how modern Shin ministers would talk about what their religion means for them.
 
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ananda

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The Buddhist idea of sunyata, or emptiness, is a central tenet of the Madhyamaka school of Mahayana Buddhism. My basic understanding of this concept is that it is a correlate of the Buddhist idea of dependent arising such that all phenomena are dependent/contingent and do not have being in and of themselves. Therefore everything is "empty," or "hollow." Yet at times emptiness is spoken of as a reality unto itself rather than merely a consequence of the way in which all phenomena exist. For example, in the Britannica article linked below sunyata is said to be "the undifferentiation out of which all apparent entities, distinctions, and dualities arise." In this way emptiness seems to be understood as a reality that can be experienced which gives birth to all phenomena, not unlike the ground of being.

This thread is meant to be a discussion of sunyata generally, but I am also wondering if sunyata is thought to be something which exists in and can be experienced in itself, or else is merely a description of a consequence of the Buddhist doctrine of dependent arising. Thoughts?

Speaking from a non-Mahayana perspective: Sunnata in the early Buddhist texts merely refers to the idea that there is not an enduring self behind anything we experience in samsara. cf SN 35:85 Nothing more, nothing less. It is not seen as a separate reality, or as a ground of reality.
 
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Romans 8

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The Buddhist idea of sunyata, or emptiness, is a central tenet of the Madhyamaka school of Mahayana Buddhism. My basic understanding of this concept is that it is a correlate of the Buddhist idea of dependent arising such that all phenomena are dependent/contingent and do not have being in and of themselves. Therefore everything is "empty," or "hollow." Yet at times emptiness is spoken of as a reality unto itself rather than merely a consequence of the way in which all phenomena exist. For example, in the Britannica article linked below sunyata is said to be "the undifferentiation out of which all apparent entities, distinctions, and dualities arise." In this way emptiness seems to be understood as a reality that can be experienced which gives birth to all phenomena, not unlike the ground of being.

This thread is meant to be a discussion of sunyata generally, but I am also wondering if sunyata is thought to be something which exists in and can be experienced in itself, or else is merely a description of a consequence of the Buddhist doctrine of dependent arising. Thoughts?


I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to post a video on kundalini which is in Buddhist meditation and is related. I will delete this if you'd rather not address this in the thread. I'd like to know what buddhist meditators thing of this:

 
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ananda

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I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to post a video on kundalini which is in Buddhist meditation and is related. I will delete this if you'd rather not address this in the thread. I'd like to know what buddhist meditators thing of this:

FYI, "kundalini" is a Hindu teaching, and is not found in any early Buddhist text. If Buddhists are practicing it, they are not basing it on Buddhist teaching.
 
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Romans 8

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FYI, "kundalini" is a Hindu teaching, and is not found in any early Buddhist text. If Buddhists are practicing it, they are not basing it on Buddhist teaching.

The lower meditation focusing on concentration called "shamatha" is intended to focus the mind and build discipline etc. The higher Vipassana meditations do incorporate Kundalini and kriya into the meditations as all of the buddhist and hindu meditations are based on these two.
 
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FireDragon76

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The lower meditation focusing on concentration called "shamatha" is intended to focus the mind and build discipline etc. The higher Vipassana meditations do incorporate Kundalini and kriya into the meditations as all of the buddhist and hindu meditations are based on these two.

Nope, that's not true. I'm familiar with vipassana meditation in Theravada Buddhism, and it's simply focused attention.

The concept of kundalini is very much at odds with Buddhism.
 
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Romans 8

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Nope, that's not true. I'm familiar with vipassana meditation in Theravada Buddhism, and it's simply focused attention.

Nope, focused attention is Shamatha. The Vipassana is referred it as "insight" meditation.
 
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FireDragon76

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Nope, focused attention is Shamatha. The Vipassana is referred it as "insight" meditation.

Yes, it's reflecting in a focused way on the nature of experience. Shamatha is a very preliminary step to that.

Nothing esoteric is involved in that, much less kundalini.
 
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Romans 8

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Yes, it's reflecting in a focused way on the nature of experience. Shamatha is a very basic form of that.

Nothing esoteric is involved in that, much less kundalini.

Nothing Esoteric? Or do you mean nothing Occultic? Tibetan Buddhism according to Helena Blavatsky is the most preserved form of magic out there. She'd be a good judge no?
 
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Nothing Esoteric? Or do you mean nothing Occultic? Tibetan Buddhism according to Helena Blavatsky is the most preserved form of magic out there. She'd be a good judge no?

Tibetan Buddhism has tantric and magical elements, yes, that's part of the whole point of it, to directly transform reality through enlightenment. But Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism are different philosophies altogether. There's more difference between Theravada (Southern Buddhism, what Ananda is generally talking about) and Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism) than there is between Protestantism and Catholicism. It's greater than the differences between Judaism and Christianity.
 
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