Buddhist Sunyata

[ananda]

The lower meditation focusing on concentration called "shamatha" is intended to focus the mind and build discipline etc. The higher Vipassana meditations do incorporate Kundalini and kriya into the meditations as all of the buddhist and hindu meditations are based on these two.

In the tradition of early Buddhism I follow, there are no such divisions.

The first seven parts of the Eightfold Path forms the groundwork and a stable foundation for the successful achievement of the eighth part: Right Concentration (samadhi). Right Concentration produces samatha (tranquillity), and tranquility results in vipassana (insight) and they are not separate practices.

For a more mundane example: when we're trying to learn anything, we need a concentrated mind to focus on the thing to learn. The more concentrated the mind is (samatha), the clearer and more effectively we gain insight (vipassana) into whatever we're studying, and the more effective our learning.

Kundalini is not involved - Hindu meditations are quite different.

 

[FireDragon76]

In the tradition of early Buddhism I follow, there is no such divisions.

The first seven parts of the Eightfold Path forms the groundwork and foundation for the eighth part: Right Concentration (samadhi), which produces samatha (tranquillity). Samatha results in vipassana and are not separate practices.

For a more mundane example: when we're trying to learn anything, we need a concentrated mind to focus on the thing to learn. The more concentrated the mind is, the clearer and more effectively we learn about whatever we're studying.

Kundalini is not involved - Hindu meditations are quite different.

Kundalini is a concept that appears in a wide variety of Hindu practices, potentially. It has to do with the idea of latent spiritual power in a human being. People that aren't ready for those kinds of experiences can suffer a great deal from its effects.

 

[Romans 8]

In the tradition of early Buddhism I follow, there are no such divisions.

The first seven parts of the Eightfold Path forms the groundwork and a stable foundation for successful achievement of the eighth part: Right Concentration (samadhi). Right Concentration produces samatha (tranquillity), and tranquility results in vipassana (insight) and they are not separate practices.

For a more mundane example: when we're trying to learn anything, we need a concentrated mind to focus on the thing to learn. The more concentrated the mind is (samatha), the clearer and more effectively we learn (vipassana) about whatever we're studying.

Kundalini is not involved - Hindu meditations are quite different.

That's good to hear. I guess the terminology is the same but the practice is different. God Bless!

 

[Romans 8]

Kundalini is a concept that appears in a wide variety of Hindu practices, potentially. It has to do with the idea of latent spiritual power in a human being. People that aren't ready for those kinds of experiences can suffer a great deal from its effects.

I know kundalini is involved in Tibetan Buddhism because I used to study it. But Tibetan Buddhism was tweaked by the occultists in my opinion. I don't think it's the original religion of Buddhism.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

In Christian terms all things abide in the Being of God. Nothing exists apart from God. On its own. In other words, "empty". I propose that sunyata is compatible with Christian ontology.

 

[FireDragon76]

I know kundalini is involved in Tibetan Buddhism because I used to study it. But Tibetan Buddhism was tweaked by the occultists in my opinion. I don't think it's the original religion of Buddhism.

There are similar concepts but I don't think it's identical, because Kundalini is a concept that comes from Shaktism (devotion to Shakti, the female consort of Shiva). Shaktism, BTW, is an ecstatic form of Hinduism that is similar in some ways to Pentecostalism, in fact shaktipat is superficilaly similar to laying on of hands. A guru touches an initiate and they often fall over or engage in unusual, spontaneous, ecstatic behaviors.

There's something in Tibetan Buddhism called tummo. People that master it can withstand cold. It's more of a side effect, though, and not the primary purpose. IT's been documented that people that practice various Tibetan practices can generate some quite intense brain activity that is highly unusual.

 

[FireDragon76]

There's a guy named Wim Hof that actually studied tummo breathing techniques. I watched a documentary where he's swimming around in freezing water that would ordinarily kill somebody.

 

[Romans 8]

There are similar concepts but I don't think it's identical, because Kundalini is a concept that comes from Shaktism (devotion to Shakti, the female consort of Shiva). Shaktism, BTW, is an ecstatic form of Hinduism that is similar in some ways to Pentecostalism, in fact shaktiput is superficilaly similar to laying on of hands. A guru touches an initiate and they often fall over or engage in unusual, spontaneous, ecstatic behaviors.

There's something in Tibetan Buddhism called tummo. People that master it can withstand cold. It's more of a side effect, though, and not the primary purpose. IT's been documented that people that practice various Tibetan practices can generate some quite intense brain activity that is highly unusual.

Be careful in how you discern the Holy Spirit from demons. The "Shaktism" you're referencing is the kundalini that I'm referencing and it can be witnessed in the Bethel church in Redding California. This is the counterfeit "Holy Spirit" they pass off as genuine.

A Pentecostal church hosts the real Holy Spirit, and there is no kundalini. I know you probably are a cessationist but I do believe the Holy Spirit is doing today what He was doing in Acts.

 

[FireDragon76]

Be careful in how you discern the Holy Spirit from demons. The "Shaktism" you're referencing is the kundalini that I'm referencing and it can be witnessed in the Bethel church in Redding California. This is the counterfeit "Holy Spirit" they pass off as genuine.

A Pentecostal church hosts the real Holy Spirit, and there is no kundalini. I know you probably are a cessationist but I do believe the Holy Spirit is doing today what He was doing in Acts.

There are other possibilities, such as inclusivism or pluralism. St. Seraphim of Sarov, in his discourse with Nikolai Motovilov, recorded in the work On the Acquisition of the Holy Spirit, said he thought the Cybelene Oracles had prophetic powers from God.

 

[FireDragon76]

In Christian terms all things abide in the Being of God. Nothing exists apart from God. On its own. In other words, "empty". I propose that sunyata is compatible with Christian ontology.

But unless God is understood merely as a symbol, I'm not sure that's really compatible.

I think its more like what Ken Wilbur said, it's understanding the relationship to Ultimate Reality in a very different way. Christianity is like Martin Buber's "I - Thou", whereas Buddhism is more about understanding reality as a verb.

 

[FireDragon76]

A good guy to follow about comparative approaches is David Bentley Hart. He's done alot of dialogue with Sufism and Hinduism, but he's very much an Orthodox Christian himself, just open-minded.

 

[FireDragon76]

BTW... I don't tend to favor mystical approaches so much now days. I'm more in agreement with Marx, what good is it to merely study the world when the whole point is to change it? I actually think Jesus would be more in line with that, too. Mysticism is often a bottomless pit of self-indulgence and has been used to prop up some really repressive societies, like medieval Tibet (or medieval Catholicism, for that matter). And I agree with someone like Albert Schweizer that mysticism is often unjustifiable when you realize we live in a world of actual human needs.

Maybe the best "happy medium" between these extremes is somebody like Maria Skobstova, who had a mysticism of the image of God that lead her out into the world to serve, even at the cost of her own life.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

The Buddhist idea of sunyata, or emptiness, is a central tenet of the Madhyamaka school of Mahayana Buddhism. My basic understanding of this concept is that it is a correlate of the Buddhist idea of dependent arising such that all phenomena are dependent/contingent and do not have being in and of themselves. Therefore everything is "empty," or "hollow." Yet at times emptiness is spoken of as a reality unto itself rather than merely a consequence of the way in which all phenomena exist. For example, in the Britannica article linked below sunyata is said to be "the undifferentiation out of which all apparent entities, distinctions, and dualities arise." In this way emptiness seems to be understood as a reality that can be experienced which gives birth to all phenomena, not unlike the ground of being.

This thread is meant to be a discussion of sunyata generally, but I am also wondering if sunyata is thought to be something which exists in and can be experienced in itself, or else is merely a description of a consequence of the Buddhist doctrine of dependent arising. Thoughts?

• Śūnyatā - Wikipedia
  
• Sunyata | Buddhist concept
  
• Sunyata (Emptiness) in the Mahayana Context
  
• Madhyamaka - Wikipedia
  
• Madhyamaka (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I'm not a Buddhist but the concept of Sunyata aligns with things I have experienced in meditation. I put my own spin on the experince at the time because I had no religious point of reference as such.

For me I experienced a state of no-thing but not nothing. It was just an awareness of being with literally no sensory or cognitive additions. The reflective assessment I have of that when I am awake and conscious with cognitive and sensory drives is that it felt like I was experiencing a blank creative canvas.
Nothing of 'me' was present in that state, nothing I had created as me.

When i came back to normal life it was quite confronting because I could see the self as a construct. That phrase that gets used...if I'm not me then who am I? That's how it felt. Our lives are mostly owned by self identification, and whilst I see that as an enrichment of our lives on many levels, it leads to much destruction as a creative expression, both inwardly as attachments to our psyche and externally as action, the physical manifestation of that inward attachment. For me that experience enabled me to remove the destructive elements to my-self and create anew, from the experince of no-thing leading to a blank canvas of creative capability and potential. To paint a new picture of me.

 

[zippy2006]

I'm not a Buddhist but the concept of Sunyata aligns with things I have experienced in meditation. I put my own spin on the experince at the time because I had no religious point of reference as such.

For me I experienced a state of no-thing but not nothing. It was just an awareness of being with literally no sensory or cognitive additions. The reflective assessment I have of that when I am awake and conscious with cognitive and sensory drives is that it felt like I was experiencing a blank creative canvas.
Nothing of 'me' was present in that state, nothing I had created as me.

When i came back to normal life it was quite confronting because I could see the self as a construct. That phrase that gets used...if I'm not me then who am I? That's how it felt. Our lives are mostly owned by self identification, and whilst I see that as an enrichment of our lives on many levels, it leads to much destruction as a creative expression, both inwardly as attachments to our psyche and externally as action, the physical manifestation of that inward attachment. For me that experience enabled me to remove the destructive elements to my-self and create anew, from the experince of no-thing leading to a blank canvas of creative capability and potential. To paint a new picture of me.

Interesting post! Did your recreation require entering back into that "blank canvas" state continually, or did the one encounter that began everything sustain the effort?

 

[Eyes wide Open]

Be careful in how you discern the Holy Spirit from demons. The "Shaktism" you're referencing is the kundalini that I'm referencing and it can be witnessed in the Bethel church in Redding California. This is the counterfeit "Holy Spirit" they pass off as genuine.

A Pentecostal church hosts the real Holy Spirit, and there is no kundalini. I know you probably are a cessationist but I do believe the Holy Spirit is doing today what He was doing in Acts.

kundalini means coiled up, and holy spirit means set apart breath.

Interesting post! Did your recreation require entering back into that "blank canvas" state continually, or did the one encounter that began everything sustain the effort?

I built up to that point from daily meditation over about a year and that experience was a series of experinces over about a 6 month period, then I let the meditation go. Not every meditation resulted in that experience. In the following 2-3 years these experinces were in my awareness daily, with huge changes taking place in my life. 10 years on Its more a point of memory and reflection. I'm mediatiing again after a long break.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

But unless God is understood merely as a symbol, I'm not sure that's really compatible.

I think its more like what Ken Wilbur said, it's understanding the relationship to Ultimate Reality in a very different way. Christianity is like Martin Buber's "I - Thou", whereas Buddhism is more about understanding reality as a verb.

Yes, but in both the phenomenal world is empty on its own.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

It has been a while since I have read much about this, so with that caveat, my 2 cents.

As I understand Sunyata as conceived by Nagarjuna at Nalanda, it is very much anologous to Neoplatonic ideas of the undifferentiated One. For the gymnosophists and Greek Philosophy are known to have interacted, and Mahayana shows marked Greek influence.

The subdividing idea of Mind as the step beneath, that it creates dualities of a thing vs otherwise not that thing. In this way, it is illusory, as really we are looking at what is simply undifferentiated primordial Oneness. So the Bodhisattva act in this plain, as subdividing Minds that resist final enlightenment into the non-existence of Non-duality, in order to allow the other beings trapped in the facade to escape. Thing is, when all mind is liberated into simple Mind, then the goal is to enlighten all to the simple fact of unity of all things in Oneness, thus eliminating those subsidising minds themselves - for the mind only arises through the act of 'creating' duality. The stated goal of such schools of Mahayana Buddhism seems to imply that the goal is non-existence of all things, therefore. In the past I have in moments of pique, and a tad unfairly, labelled Mahayana Buddhism a fancy suicide cult accordingly.

It is not that the One is the ground of being, but that we have created a false sense of duality around it. Our duality creates itself, the act of making false veils creates the idea of a person doing the act, but ultimately all is void. That is why they have ideas of Khandas, or heaps of subsidiary phenomena, that falsely concludes to itself an idea of an I, that themselves only exist in that these phenomena were conceived as such. The One True Buddha nature is not so much a ground of being, as being shorn of the mists of illusion - but it isn't even completely clear to me if it is even conceived as really a thing at all. Perhaps only the shadows exist, it sometimes seems, as a thing 'existing' is a shameless example of Duality after all.

 

[Noxot]

in Christianity we have a spiritual tool expressed in many verses as "do not lean on your own understanding" which is basically a technique to be able to listen to God and his angels or to be in spirit.

in the more profound veins of Christianity we have an idea called freedom which is something that is a precursor to being as we typically understand it in western thought. or it can be thought of as potential which gives birth to what is. freedom and spirit are basically the same thing. freedom is the bottomless abyss of both man and God, it is the Godhead when speaking of God and it is the "ungrund" when speaking of the world or persons.

the Trinity is said to be Gods inner process or game where there is both creator and creature which is one reason why the Son of God is fully God and fully (absolute) human and why God made all things through the Logos but also sacrificed himself to save us (he was slain before the foundation of the world).

in our creation story the earth is "without form and void" which depicts the starting point of our new birth in God and Gods birth in us, thus the double emptiness.

I think that this emptiness only seems to be nothing because it is so very rich and real. it is like saying that light is darkness because the light blinded you due to it being so much.

think about what nothing is. we have a word for it but it is not a thing. it's something that is incomprehensible. that is also what freedom is. it's not something. it's before something.

 

[FireDragon76]

It has been a while since I have read much about this, so with that caveat, my 2 cents.

As I understand Sunyata as conceived by Nagarjuna at Nalanda, it is very much anologous to Neoplatonic ideas of the undifferentiated One. For the gymnosophists and Greek Philosophy are known to have interacted, and Mahayana shows marked Greek influence.

The subdividing idea of Mind as the step beneath, that it creates dualities of a thing vs otherwise not that thing. In this way, it is illusory, as really we are looking at what is simply undifferentiated primordial Oneness. So the Bodhisattva act in this plain, as subdividing Minds that resist final enlightenment into the non-existence of Non-duality, in order to allow the other beings trapped in the facade to escape. Thing is, when all mind is liberated into simple Mind, then the goal is to enlighten all to the simple fact of unity of all things in Oneness, thus eliminating those subsidising minds themselves - for the mind only arises through the act of 'creating' duality. The stated goal of such schools of Mahayana Buddhism seems to imply that the goal is non-existence of all things, therefore. In the past I have in moments of pique, and a tad unfairly, labelled Mahayana Buddhism a fancy suicide cult accordingly.

It is not that the One is the ground of being, but that we have created a false sense of duality around it. Our duality creates itself, the act of making false veils creates the idea of a person doing the act, but ultimately all is void. That is why they have ideas of Khandas, or heaps of subsidiary phenomena, that falsely concludes to itself an idea of an I, that themselves only exist in that these phenomena were conceived as such. The One True Buddha nature is not so much a ground of being, as being shorn of the mists of illusion - but it isn't even completely clear to me if it is even conceived as really a thing at all. Perhaps only the shadows exist, it sometimes seems, as a thing 'existing' is a shameless example of Duality after all.

Different schools of Buddhism have different interpretations, but I think you've basically got it. It's apophatic transcendentalism.

 

[zippy2006]

Thanks Quid.

It has been a while since I have read much about this, so with that caveat, my 2 cents.

As I understand Sunyata as conceived by Nagarjuna at Nalanda, it is very much anologous to Neoplatonic ideas of the undifferentiated One. For the gymnosophists and Greek Philosophy are known to have interacted, and Mahayana shows marked Greek influence.

The subdividing idea of Mind as the step beneath, that it creates dualities of a thing vs otherwise not that thing. In this way, it is illusory, as really we are looking at what is simply undifferentiated primordial Oneness. So the Bodhisattva act in this plain, as subdividing Minds that resist final enlightenment into the non-existence of Non-duality, in order to allow the other beings trapped in the facade to escape. Thing is, when all mind is liberated into simple Mind, then the goal is to enlighten all to the simple fact of unity of all things in Oneness, thus eliminating those subsidising minds themselves - for the mind only arises through the act of 'creating' duality. The stated goal of such schools of Mahayana Buddhism seems to imply that the goal is non-existence of all things, therefore. In the past I have in moments of pique, and a tad unfairly, labelled Mahayana Buddhism a fancy suicide cult accordingly.

That seems like an accurate portrayal, with the goal being the non-existence of all minds and things. In fact the Madhyamaka school in particular has often been accused of a kind of nihilism.

It is not that the One is the ground of being, but that we have created a false sense of duality around it. Our duality creates itself, the act of making false veils creates the idea of a person doing the act, but ultimately all is void. That is why they have ideas of Khandas, or heaps of subsidiary phenomena, that falsely concludes to itself an idea of an I, that themselves only exist in that these phenomena were conceived as such. The One True Buddha nature is not so much a ground of being, as being shorn of the mists of illusion - but it isn't even completely clear to me if it is even conceived as really a thing at all. Perhaps only the shadows exist, it sometimes seems, as a thing 'existing' is a shameless example of Duality after all.

Further reading confirmed that the Madhyamaka does not conceive of Nothingness as a thing, but the Yogacara school under the influence of Taoism does consider Nothingness as a kind of existing ground of being or dharmakaya.

Apparently Madhyamaka is a kind of practical Buddhist philosophy in the sense that it is meant to remove anything that the mind might become attached to. Thus everything is ontologically empty--Nothingness--even concepts and even the Madhyamaka philosophy itself. So it's not a body of speculative knowledge so much as a tool to guide the mind to enlightenment, almost like a macrocosmic koan.