Bruce Jenner

Patchworks said:

Well, gee, Christians know God doesn't make mistakes.

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Well lets not forget autism, turner's syndrome and all others disorders people are born with.

Sistrin said:

He is mentally ill and needs treatment for such as opposed to being pandered to by people attempting to use his story to insist someone else is either sick, bigoted, or evil.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, and Patchworks has a point. Christians understand that in order to accept the existence of God and that God attempts to positively influence our lives we have no choice but to acknowledge the existence of satan and his designs on man. Atheist accept neither but that is their problem. Someone born male claiming to be female isn't someone to be pitied and pandered to and placated with platitudes and surgery and then held up to society as some sort of hero. They are someone in need of help, both mental and spiritual.

And now I will be savaged for making this comment, but this is Christian Forums and not the Dawkins dot Net sewing circle, and the truth is Christ could help Jenner far more effectively than any progressive spewing faux sympathy and promoting an agenda.



Until society at large undergoes a paradigm shift I wouldn't count on it, but I agree with your point.

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IF Jenner has any mental illnesses, gender dysphoria is NOT one of them. It has been shown to be a medical condition, not a mental one; at least to the satisfaction of the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, and numerous other professional bodies here in the US and abroad. There are NO respectable professional groups or associations that would agree with your assessment of gender dysphoria as a mental illness. You CAN find a handful of individual professionals that differ with that assessment, but they are held as misinformed by the vast majority of their peers. If YOU have any evidence to support your assertions that the aforementioned professional associations do not have access to, I'm quite sure they would welcome hearing from you.

Your statement, "Someone born male claiming to be female isn't someone to be pitied and pandered to and placated with platitudes and surgery..." demonstrates your own misinformation. Transsexuals are not someone born one sex that "claim" to be the opposite sex. They are people who have brains wired in accordance with the opposite sex. That difference in wiring affects their innate sense of gender. Numerous clinical studies over the years have demonstrated very clearly that there are demonstrable physical differences in the brain structures of males and females. Several studies have demonstrated clearly that transsexuals' brain ARE structured in accordance with the gender which they claim to be.

You state correctly and clearly that "this is Christian Forums and not the Dawkins dot Net sewing circle". I agree completely with this. As a Christian, I am highly desirous of the Truth. Truth is from God. ALL Truth, regardless of WHERE it comes from. Truth can be defined as that which clearly and accurately describes reality. When clinical studies are performed, (and performed repeatedly by several professional groups in various locations), which all point to the exact same result with no variance for disagreement, it behooves people to take notice and be willing to alter their preconceived notions. ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANS. All truth is from God. Whether it is written in the Scripture, proclaimed by a prophet, or discovered by someone who falls under the description of "unbeliever", if it accurately describes reality, it IS truth. And as such IS from God.

It was after an exhaustive 4 year study through the Scriptures and numerous other historical commentaries, that I realized that transsexuality and gender transition is NOT sinful, as I once supposed. After the conclusion of that study, I began to study the science behind the phenomenon. After looking into that for a year, I realized that transition IS a viable option for me. And, after several extended prayerful encounters with the Lord to remove the last vestiges of doubt from my mind, I decided to go through with it.

The result has been the absolutely MOST freeing event in my life, after Salvation. I had always known I had been living with depression over this issue. But I had no idea how intense that depression really was until it lifted. It's beyond "night and day".

Nothing you have said in your post has any support whatsoever, scientifically OR Scripturally. It is opinion, and nothing else. I will defend your right to hold an opinion. But, I will also point out it's errors for the benefit of others.

StephanieSomer said:

True. He doesn't. He makes children with cleft palates, no legs, no arms, and siamese twins, among a lot of other physical issues. They aren't "mistakes". He intended them to be born that way. But, do we surgically modify their bodies to allow them a more comfortable life?

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There is also Down's Syndrome and autism that children can be born with. I can't help but think about all the babies who are born with birth defects because their mothers who did drugs while pregnant or the babies who are born with a disease like AIDS because their mother was infected. I can only suppose that God intended for those children to be born that way too, based solely on the assumption that he doesn't make mistakes. I guess that would be a fair assumption.

Patchworks said:

In his mind he's a woman.
One day society will realize it's best to treat mental illness rather than carve up a person so as to get to the other sex they claim is hidden beneath the layers.

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When did he claim to be the opposite sex? Now that would truly be delusional. This is about gender. His mind is that of a woman. A penis does not gender the brain.

Patchworks said:

Well, gee, Christians know God doesn't make mistakes.

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Then why are you suggesting that it's wrong that Bruce's nervous system likely developed under the influence of a certain cocktail of hormones that doesn't match the gender we usually associate with persons who are XY and have male reproductive organs? Was God taking a nap when that happened?

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN said:

Well lets not forget autism, turner's syndrome and all others disorders people are born with.

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Perhaps it would be fair to mention all the diseases that people can contract during their lifetime as well.

StephanieSomer said:

The point I was addressing was your assertion that surgery would not change Jenner's sex. In truth, it can. It won't change the genotype. But, it WILL change the phenotype.

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Colloquially, yeah. Just like colloquially, or sociologically I'm biracial or mixed-race. But more technically biracial or mixed-race (for modern humans) is an oxymoron. Assuming modern biology and anthropology are correct about how many races exist among humans today (one race). And then assuming biology is correct about how many sexes exist among humans (two sexes) and what determines that sex (the presence of a Y chromosome makes you male).

But colloquially, sociologically, I agree. Bruce Jenner when he changes his physical appearance enough will be as female or woman as I am mulatto or biracial.

Racism?? Trust me, I am no racist.

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Eh... I would argue no one, not me, not any black person reared in the Americas, and no other races of people reared in the Americas (Brazil to Canada) can escape having their views of race formed by their nation. Nations long ago built on racial caste systems.

Like sex and gender. Is it okay to kick a woman in the teeth? No. Well that is formed by being reared in the Americas even though you believe women should be Navy SEALs, Army Rangers, and cheer when female bullies kick some weak guy in his teeth.

As a child I heard my father complaining in the house frequently about how the media always asks of white, male, criminals... "What went wrong with a guy that was once a wonderful boy?" His complaints were that never does the media ask that of black criminals but just assumes, just presents them as though that was natural to them from birth.

What I term "guilty before innocent" or "bad until proven good." Having to prove each and every day for the rest of your life that you are "good."

My father rarely drinks alcohol. Does not do drugs. And was a Federal agents (Army vet too) and now a retired Federal agent. As a child I did not quite know what he meant.

Now, all these years later, in the same country, I find myself bringing up the same complaints. Observing the same thing.

Kind of like every time I see Viola Davis in some roll (at least the one's I've seen her in) she's playing the saaaaaaaaaame d___ roll of some black woman that has struggled upward heroically after having been sexually molested or beaten or betrayed by some black man in her life.

And then this war waged ferociously on men of my hue that are blue collar workers. Black women eat it up and the white media runs with it. "There are no good black men for black women because few of them have college degrees" blah, blah, blah. And the war drum of caring what people do with their sex lives or *who* they love with the All-American chant to girls and women, "Never settle less."

And that less does not include white men becoming transsexual with a swastika tattooed on their butt. It applied to men of my hue working two low paying jobs. Period.

If born again in the USA--vis reincarnation--I'd rather be born a female of any color, or be a white dude that is closeted gay and shooting up heroin in his arms. I sure wouldn't want to be born a combination of mulatto and male--in the USA. A curse worst than most afflictions on earth (the exception might be if my genetics would have me tall and handsome, and fate have me rich.)

So this whole thing involves racism in my book.



(So, I'm saying, conditioned by the media even Black-American women would see white men like Bruce Jenner as "a good catch"--because they are always good until proven bad, innocent until proven guilty, and everyone is "open minded" about any and everyone unless it's some dude of my hue laboring up and down a ladder for low pay, then we're in par with pedophiles.)

brewmama said:

He also said he was conservative, to a rather shocked Diane Sawyer. So here's betting that the press drops him pretty quickly.

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It seems to me that they dropped him and embraced Caitlyn Jenner.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-cover-annie-leibovitz

Patchworks said:

Well, gee, Christians know God doesn't make mistakes.

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God doesn't. Nature does, however.

Cearbhall said:

I recommend that you do some reading about it.

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You know it's a bad day when even conservapedia's understanding of the subject is more rational than one's own.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Transsexual

I only just heard about Bruce Jenner but want to come back to the claim that hes a christian. Says who? People that know him or himself?

Does he go to church, read the bible, pray, love others less fortunate than himself, do good deeds, display fruits of the holy spirit, spread the Word, give to charity in secret?
Does he proclaim Jesus is Lord?

I'd be very interested to know, as my first impression of his story is he probably took too many steroids...and I dont know that he has a testimony...

Goodbook said:

I only just heard about Bruce Jenner but want to come back to the claim that hes a christian. Says who? People that know him or himself?

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Many people believe that this is between her and God, and that nothing any human says has any bearing on the truth of whether or not she's a Christian. And I agree that this is the way it should be.

Goodbook said:

I only just heard about Bruce Jenner but want to come back to the claim that hes a christian. Says who? People that know him or himself?

Does he go to church, read the bible, pray, love others less fortunate than himself, do good deeds, display fruits of the holy spirit, spread the Word, give to charity in secret?
Does he proclaim Jesus is Lord?

I'd be very interested to know, as my first impression of his story is he probably took too many steroids...and I dont know that he has a testimony...

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How would any of us know if she gives to charity in secret?

What specific evidence makes you think she took too many steroids?

Goodbook said:

Does he go to church, read the bible, pray, love others less fortunate than himself, do good deeds, display fruits of the holy spirit, spread the Word, give to charity in secret?
Does he proclaim Jesus is Lord?

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Are these all things that all Christians do and can be easily verified by a random person on the internet?

Olympic athlete, drugs in sport..or in an environment where there lots of drug taking.

If you can't tell who's a christian, then don't know what you doing on this site...those are among the many things christians do that openly show they are faithful to God and have an active faith. if Bruce Jenner has a ministry reaching out to the unsaved then I'd like to hear of it...

Yes, those are amongst the things Christians/believers do.

If you not aware of this I suggest you read the Bible to have a better idea...particularly book of Acts and the letters to the churches. I speak the truth in love, all the rest seems to be just gossip.

Goodbook said:

Olympic athlete, drugs in sport..or in an environment where there lots of drug taking.

If you can't tell who's a christian, then don't know what you doing on this site...those are among the many things christians do that openly show they are faithful to God and have an active faith. if Bruce Jenner has a ministry reaching out to the unsaved then I'd like to hear of it...

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It's none our business what Jenner does in her spare time? Whether Jenner did drugs in the Olympics isn't really our concern, it's the past. If Jenner admits to it, big deal . Then the Olympics would have to deal with that. Has Jenner and her family, including Kris given to charity? Yes. People that watch their show knows that. They don't make a big deal about it. I assume your supposed to be a Christian.

Goodbook said:

If you can't tell who's a christian, then don't know what you doing on this site...

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This is not a logical response to the worldview that I represented. It does not address or argue against the idea that only God truly knows a person's heart. What flaw do you see in the Christian philosophy that I related?

(And it would be helpful if you could use the quote function, to make sure that the people to which you are responding see your post.)

Bruce Jenner needs mental help, not enabling. He is no more a woman now than he was forty years ago, regardless of how many times the agenda driven sycophants tell him he is.

Sistrin said:

Bruce Jenner needs mental help, not enabling. He is no more a woman now than he was forty years ago, regardless of how many times the agenda driven sycophants tell him he is.

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Why does it bother you so much?

Sistrin said:

Bruce Jenner needs mental help, not enabling. He is no more a woman now than he was forty years ago, regardless of how many times the agenda driven sycophants tell him he is.

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Could you please explain your viewpoint in scientific terms so I can understand where you're coming from? And ideally provide your medical journal sources that back this up. How are you defining "woman," and why have you concluded that it is impossible for someone with XY chromosomes to possess psychological and/or hormonal traits of what our culture calls the female gender?