Bruce Jenner

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Glass*Soul

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There is some truth to what you say here, but also some misconceptions. The word "sex", as a noun, has more than one definition. There is the genetic sense of sex, which I believe you are referencing as the "biological" sex. This is accurately called the genotype. There is also the genital sense of sex. That is accurately called the phenotype.

There are numerous ways in which the genotype and the phenotype do not coincide. CAIS is a genetic physical condition in which a person with XY genes develops as a female. All outward physical characteristics are female. And, generally the psyche is also. So the person is born female, identifies as female, and is treated completely as female. However, the genotype of the person is male. So, they have no internal organs that align with female. Instead of ovaries, they have undescended testes. Most cases are never recognized until the person fails to experience menses. These individuals are predominantly actually more beautiful in appearance than a female born with XX. Many of them marry, and have satisfying relationships with their husbands even though they are sterile.

In such a case, would you consider this individual as male, or female? They are genotypically male, yet phenotypically female. Most importantly though, they identify internally as female. Which brings me to the third definition of the word "sex".

Gender. By design, gender, genotype and phenotype SHOULD align. At least by God's original intent, as we understand it. It's clearly obvious they do not always align. God's original design is barely noticeable in MOST of creation. Nearly everything HAS changed. We are left to deal with the result.

So, WHAT is the proper way to deal with mis-aligned sexual characteristics? It is clear in Scripture that God's over-encompassing motivation is compassion. Can it be defended that to oppose the alleviation of the suffering of individuals as this is compassionate? Doubtful; especially in light of the lack of any Scriptural mandate being trespassed by transition. Can anyone actually defend the position that these people should remain in their agony, simply to satisfy someone else's preferences? What other remedy for the agony can you provide which HAS worked.

You do not appreciate the full depth of the agony that is endured. I get that. But, your inability to identify with it does in no way negate it's truth. I will be honest here. It is highly doubtful that MOST of you could endure it. Many who DO live with it don't. That's why the suicide rate is so awfully high among those who have this condition. I personally know well over 100 transsexuals, and am one myself. I have never met another transsexual, in person or online, that has not struggled with suicide. MOST of us have attempted it.

To blithely dismiss treatment that is PROVEN to give relief is incredibly selfish and unthinkable. For anyone to defend such a position as "Godly", especially without any Scriptural support, is just beyond the capacity of my mind to comprehend.

StepanieSomer, this is an awesom post. Thank you for making it.
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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Sooooo... how many kids has she had? How many are Kardasians? Do I really care? If so, why?

I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the person, that thought Kris Jenner was a man.
 
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Sistrin

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I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the person, that thought Kris Jenner was a man.

That comment was nothing more than a transposition. Anyone who read that comment and couldn't see the poster meant Bruce Jenner should log out now.

Quote from post 18:

"This man who wants to be a woman needs deliverance from demons of darkness, repent of his sins and turn to God almighty. Kris Jenner still has a man's DNA and he always will. He has yielded to the devil, that is why he is unhappy. And PS, he makes a very ugly "woman".

What really needs to be explained is how this stumped anyone.
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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You just contradicted yourself above by implying that if Kris Jenner was a man she could never give birth to children.
I agree with you that Bruce Jenner's gender identity is female. The feminine. But his actual biological sex is male. Stepping on a land mine and having his genitals blown off (as some male soldiers have happen) does not change his biological sex or remove him from being a man.
In his mind he's a woman in a mans body. A lot of Transgender people can relate to him. He could help people in that way. By not hiding, that he's a transgender any more. It's not like Christians can relate to Transgender unless they are Transgender. I think he said he's wasn't having his penis removed. I believe he still will like woman. I know a man, that struggled with being Transgender and it never went away. He was never able to change, since it wasn't really accepted. He dressed like a man around family members. But when he wasn't around them. He dress like a female. I seen pictures of him dressed as a woman hidden behind the normal looking pictures. So he still gave his family pictures, but they would hide them. They were religious so they weren't going to have that showing on the wall. His father said he could tell something wasn't right with him, since he was a little kids. He kept trying to dress as a girl even when he was little.
 
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DaisyDay

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But what if he gets gay married and some poor baker is forced to bake a cake? Won't somebody please think of the bakers?
He's been divorced three times - maybe he only deserves a wedding pie.
 
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NewEnglandGirl

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Bruce Jenner has his own cross to bear. My prayers for him. What I found troubling was the networks news overwhelming coverage of his dilemma. They dedicated more time to him (ABC) than covering the problem in Baltimore with the death of the man in the police van. The report just kept going on and one and on. Thus why I seldom get my news anymore from network news. It has become more entertainment than serious news reporting.
 
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Stormy

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The media can muddy the water all they like with their spin on acceptance and appreciation for his courage. The fact still shows clearly to anyone that has eyes to see... this man is mentaly ill.
 
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Sistrin

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The media can muddy the water all they like with their spin on acceptance and appreciation for his courage. The fact still shows clearly to anyone that has eyes to see... this man is mentally ill.

Agreed. However because of the particular issue he is useful to certain people therefore he is being used as opposed to helped.
 
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SuperCloud

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In his mind he's a woman in a mans body.

Certainly. And I won't dispute that.

A lot of Transgender people can relate to him. He could help people in that way.
I've no problem with this and I can understand how his story and struggles exposed in book or television can provide some additional morale to others struggling or burdened with the same dilemma. They can see a famous person who is "one of them" and feel a little less alone, a little less odd in the world.

By not hiding, that he's a transgender any more.
In my mind once he would begin transitioning into a woman there would be little to no way he could hide. Due to his celebrity status and celebrity status of his family.

It's not like Christians can relate to Transgender unless they are Transgender.
Yeah, I think this is so (at least in using the term "Christian" to denote some person absent of a problem or dilemma or in class separate from class x). But Christians can't relate to crack addicts, heroin addicts, pedophiles, or any number of people facing some dilemma.

Again, using the term "Christian" here to mean a person in a separate class than a class x, y, or z spoken of. Because Christians in reality are transgender, heroin addicts, pedophiles, overweight, divorced and so on and so on.

But for the purpose of discussion I'll go along with using the term "Christian" to mean someone of a different class of people.

So, although Sistrin is Christian, for purpose of this discussion, we can say that Christians can't relate to those parents that raise autistic children. But Sistrin can, better than I can. I've only been on the outside looking in.

I don't think one needs to be able to relate to crack addiction or pedophilia to deduce they are morally wrong trappings. And that they are undesirable character traits.

The Christian is commanded by Jesus to reach for the impossible: "Be perfect like your Father in Heaven."

Yet, Jesus did not stone sinners, in fact He understood all people have sinned and therefore writing names in the dirt He said, "He who has not sinned cast the first stone."


I think he said he's wasn't having his penis removed. I believe he still will like woman.
I never watched the interview. I meant to though. I need to see if I can watch it online. I'm intrigued.

So, if he's not getting his penis cut off this would be the norm for most males that become transsexuals. Physically transsexuals. Most become and remain what is known as "pre-op transsexual." Meaning they don't get their penis surgically removed and reshaped into a vagina.

The number one reason, from my understanding, is that most transsexuals that have their penis removed and reshaped into a vagina, lose most of their ability to be sexually stimulated in that region. In other words... they lose sexual gratification. At least physically. They may receive some mentally.

So, many opt to keep their penis and testicles even if they are primarily sexually attracted to men and want to be sexually penetrated and dominated by men.

But wait... he likes women and he is white therefore he is an eligible bachelor or good husband. What, no feminists and white liberal media (conservatives enjoy agreeing with them on this point) attacking these transgender men the way they attack black men in the media by saying, "Black women have no men to marry because few black men are college graduates."

A black plumber, or a mulatto Marine as I was, is unworthy of black and or American women, because we are so "bad" intrinsically. According to the religion of say... Obama, Bruce Jenner, feminists and those Bishops seated on the US Supreme Court.

I've never heard this religious nonsense coming out the mouths of Muslim women or promoted in the Muslim media or Latin American media. It's an American phenomenon.

Bruce Jenner is no better a man and no more worthy to be a boyfriend of some woman than the millions of black men lacking college degrees or working low paying jobs. Irrespective of how much liberal media celebrates rich rappers, financially wealthy drug dealers, wealthy corporate workers, NBA players, gay men, transsexuals, and Bruce Jenner. I like the hit TV show Empire as well. But the ideal men in shown in that liberal religiously motivated theatrical show are primarily fantasies. Few men and few black men ever become that professionally and financially perfect. Notice perhaps lower than 1% of "black TV shows" or "black movies" depict the average low paid black male worker. If they do it is to disparage such men.

So, no story of how white Bruce Jenner betrays white women, of how openly gay black men betray black women, but the same media loooooooooooves to run their mouths about how the typical black hetero man betrays the black woman.

American women are influenced by the media. Period.

So, Bruce Jenner is lucky he is not a mulatto man like me, because there would only be an American financed and run psychological war waged against him. Period. Story over with.

I know a man, that struggled with being Transgender and it never went away.
Yeah, well I struggle with crack addiction--and some would argue dual addiction to alcohol as well--and that struggle has never "went away." But why do I have to be incarcerated over it? The media depicts me in the worst light with no sympathy whatsoever.

Oh, wait, it's "my choice," right?

If your struggles include being the parent of an autistic child I'm hazarding a guess that never goes away either. And what happens to your child as an adult in age when if and when you die? I'm guessing that concern and worry never quite leaves a parent of an autistic child.

Fortunately for me, my dilemma does not include being a pedophile or even raising a child that depends on me. I'd hate to be a crackhead plus having a child and a child that is autistic no less--dependent on me fulfilling my role as a father.


He was never able to change, since it wasn't really accepted. He dressed like a man around family members. But when he wasn't around them. He dress like a female. I seen pictures of him dressed as a woman hidden behind the normal looking pictures. So he still gave his family pictures, but they would hide them. They were religious so they weren't going to have that showing on the wall. His father said he could tell something wasn't right with him, since he was a little kids. He kept trying to dress as a girl even when he was little.
Okay?

And their are "dry drunks." But there are alcoholics that are 10 years sober.

As an alcoholic once put it--once you become a pickle you can never return to being a cucumber. A lot of truth. Although, some alcoholics are able to return to being cucumbers--social drinkers that is.

My point is almost all sober drug addicts and alcoholics are tempted to use for the rest of their entire lives. Few ever obtain a mental "peace" where they never think about using again. The so-called "dry drunks" have it worst of the sober people because they live mentally tormented wanting to drink but never due. Hence, they are angry and discontent nearly all the time.

So, basically this guy you are talking about is the equivalent--or was--of a "dry drunk." But his was with respects to wanting to dress like a woman, switch his hips, and exhibit effeminate mannerism but was never culturally allowed to so he closeted like a "dry drunk." He be sheer will didn't do what he was driven internally to do just like a "dry drunk."

There is no dishonor in this man having carried out what Muslims term a "Greater Jihad" (different from "Lesser Jihad" which is violent warfare). If a pedophile carries out "Greater Jihad" he is battling internally those things inside himself driving him, tormenting him, to want to be inappropriately sexual with a child. No dishonor in Greater Jihad. There would have been no dishonor in Bill Clinton carrying out a Greater Jihad and battling those things in him driving him to commit adultery all behind his wife's back.

When it comes to sex today, feminists and liberals say Greater Jihad is horrible, but only wonderful if women are using it to rid themselves of any attraction to blue collar working black men, or black men laboring for low wages, or black men that are drug addicts. Or white men age 18 or older sexually attracted to girls 17 and younger. Then Greater Jihad is wonderful for heterosexual men they say.
 
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SuperCloud

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There is some truth to what you say here, but also some misconceptions. The word "sex", as a noun, has more than one definition. There is the genetic sense of sex, which I believe you are referencing as the "biological" sex. This is accurately called the genotype. There is also the genital sense of sex. That is accurately called the phenotype.

There are numerous ways in which the genotype and the phenotype do not coincide. CAIS is a genetic physical condition in which a person with XY genes develops as a female. All outward physical characteristics are female. And, generally the psyche is also. So the person is born female, identifies as female, and is treated completely as female. However, the genotype of the person is male. So, they have no internal organs that align with female. Instead of ovaries, they have undescended testes. Most cases are never recognized until the person fails to experience menses. These individuals are predominantly actually more beautiful in appearance than a female born with XX. Many of them marry, and have satisfying relationships with their husbands even though they are sterile.

In such a case, would you consider this individual as male, or female? They are genotypically male, yet phenotypically female. Most importantly though, they identify internally as female. Which brings me to the third definition of the word "sex".

Gender. By design, gender, genotype and phenotype SHOULD align. At least by God's original intent, as we understand it. It's clearly obvious they do not always align. God's original design is barely noticeable in MOST of creation. Nearly everything HAS changed. We are left to deal with the result.

So, WHAT is the proper way to deal with mis-aligned sexual characteristics? It is clear in Scripture that God's over-encompassing motivation is compassion. Can it be defended that to oppose the alleviation of the suffering of individuals as this is compassionate? Doubtful; especially in light of the lack of any Scriptural mandate being trespassed by transition. Can anyone actually defend the position that these people should remain in their agony, simply to satisfy someone else's preferences? What other remedy for the agony can you provide which HAS worked.

You do not appreciate the full depth of the agony that is endured. I get that. But, your inability to identify with it does in no way negate it's truth. I will be honest here. It is highly doubtful that MOST of you could endure it. Many who DO live with it don't. That's why the suicide rate is so awfully high among those who have this condition. I personally know well over 100 transsexuals, and am one myself. I have never met another transsexual, in person or online, that has not struggled with suicide. MOST of us have attempted it.

To blithely dismiss treatment that is PROVEN to give relief is incredibly selfish and unthinkable. For anyone to defend such a position as "Godly", especially without any Scriptural support, is just beyond the capacity of my mind to comprehend.

I'm a biology major. I'm aware of genotype and phenotype. Bruce Jenner is biologically male and his phenotype was male as well. His phenotype is that of a white person, too, which is what illicits in the racist United States soooooooo much sympathy for him.

Bruce Jenner is no better and no worse than any of the millions of crack addicted black men in the USA.

Go sell your Eugenics and racism to someone else.

Bye.
 
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SuperCloud

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Interesting that you openly imply your opposition would waver, based on the outward appearances of outcome. That calls into question your motivation for opposition.

That's because I appreciate aesthetics. The physical beauty of Halle Berry is as much a good to me as the intellectual brilliance of a smart, overweight, "ugly" woman.

You have your religion and I have my religion. Each person constructs their own religion. But I don't try to ram my religion down the throats of others. Ergo, I have some libertarian sympathies although I'm not a libertarian. I'm pretty fiscally liberal. Too much so for a libertarian. But in my religion there is a "season" and time for things. Youth has it's benefits, and after the passage of so much time it may well be time to lay to bed childish fantasies one has always had since their youth. An old man transitioning to look like a woman is one of them. The aesthetics are unfavorable.

Plus, I'm a man with penis and testicles, to be blunt (and honest) about it. And I can appreciate a youthful, good looking, sexy transsexual born male. Far more so than I can an "old bag" of a "woman" that was until recently an old man.

I don't care if that is biased. None of you feminists ever cared nor ever conceived of offering an apology for your blatant, evangelical-like, biased prejudice against mulatto and black males laboring in blue collar work, or in low paying jobs. You pat yourselves on your backs for your prejudices and biases. So, I'm not apologizing for my biases and aesthetic biases.
 
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SuperCloud

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I have several transsexual friends that remained married. It's not at all unusual.

Interesting that you openly imply your opposition would waver, based on the outward appearances of outcome. That calls into question your motivation for opposition.



I know several crack addicts and excons on no small part due to neighborhood culture and my own "circle" I've moved in. And I've come across a number of black transsexual prostitutes because they pretty much took over the prostitution around the blocks around my former apartment building.

Going back to circle of friends or neighborhood or whatever. I'm curious as to how it is you have several transsexual friends that remain married?

You know what I love about Jesus? Know matter how many Americans pontificate that they and the circles they travel in are better than me all due to sexual clings and what they pontificate is morally right, Jesus comes along and gives the impression to me that I should not believe any of these Americans.

And no... I don't care about how many Americans in your circle "pay taxes," that most sacred of all American pontificated values. Try and impress Jesus with how much taxes you all pay, maybe He will be impressed, but I'm not.

A husband has a duty to his wife and children before himself. That is my religion. Now, you Americans and Western Europeans can take out your stones and start throwing them.

So, in light of you bringing up my motivations (far enough question), I'm asking again as to how it is you have several transsexual friends that remain married?

Seems statistically unlikely unless you travel in certain circles or are involved in certain circles. Gangster hang around gangsters, Democrats around Democrats, liberal Christians around Christians that subscribe to their same views, lifestyle, and values. Crack addicts hang around crack addicts (excepted those in recovery usually).

I imagine parents or siblings of a transsexual child or sibling often place themselves in social, political environments promoting the transsexual cause, and thereby increase the number of their friends and associates that are transsexuals.
 
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Cute Tink

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So, in light of you bringing up my motivations (far enough question), I'm asking again as to how it is you have several transsexual friends that remain married?

Seems statistically unlikely unless you travel in certain circles or are involved in certain circles. Gangster hang around gangsters, Democrats around Democrats, liberal Christians around Christians that subscribe to their same views, lifestyle, and values. Crack addicts hang around crack addicts (excepted those in recovery usually).

I imagine parents or siblings of a transsexual child or sibling often place themselves in social, political environments promoting the transsexual cause, and thereby increase the number of their friends and associates that are transsexuals.

I'm not Stephanie, nor am I answering for her, but I also know some trans people who remained in their relationships after opening up and starting transition. I also know many, including myself, who lost their relationships after coming out.

In my case, I am a trans advocate and, as you suggest, I am often surrounded by other trans people who are in the same groups I am. I know far more trans people than most would because of that.
 
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SuperCloud

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I'm not Stephanie, nor am I answering for her, but I also know some trans people who remained in their relationships after opening up and starting transition. I also know many, including myself, who lost their relationships after coming out.

In my case, I am a trans advocate and, as you suggest, I am often surrounded by other trans people who are in the same groups I am. I know far more trans people than most would because of that.

I pretty much figured that, Cute Tink.

And as I've said in the past (in honesty)--and as it remains now--I like you. As far as I can tell across the internet, you are a very decent person with a good heart. You are truly effeminate as well. That is just apart of who you are. And matches well on you given you live life as a woman, and I presume you look like a woman.

Given you are younger than Bruce Jenner I'm going to make a guess that you look a lot better, you are a lot more attractive looking woman, than he is.

Looks matter to me.

Granted, looks aren't everything, looks can even be deceiving, but I place a fairly high value on aesthetics. If for no other reason than I think people should make some attempt to look reasonably good. At least some attempt.

But I have no ill will towards Bruce Jenner himself. I find his descent from the top pyramid throne of masculinity tragic. But a good lesson that even accomplished men can be less than perfect, that they can have their own secret problems and dilemmas as well. Sexual even.

I would find it less tragic--due to some personal bias--had Bruce never been an Olympic champion, on the box of Wheaties, blessed to receive an attractive blond wife due to his high social standing. But rather had been born an impoverished boy in Brazil or Thailand that at age 14 or so transitioned into a girl.

Americans would find it more tragic if an American President got slapped across the face by a Russian President and intimidated into literally crawling around on his knees in front of him. Than say... some unknown, nobody man in New York City with a struggling bar that after recovering from a baseball bat beating by NYC Italian mobsters, if ordered, and intimidated into descending to his knees to give oral sex to one of those Italian mobsters in front of his (the bar owners) patrons. True story that last one.

Bruce Jenner is like an American President in terms of achieving relative height, throne on the male social pyramid of life. He was not some short, Mexican guy working for a day labor company picking up beer bottles at a baseball stadium for minimum wage, that the better part of American femaledom would recoil at the though of being photographed with let alone kissing. Bruce at his height would have had the best looking women in America falling at his feet.
 
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Cute Tink

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I pretty much figured that, Cute Tink.

And as I've said in the past (in honesty)--and as it remains now--I like you. As far as I can tell across the internet, you are a very decent person with a good heart. You are truly effeminate as well. That is just apart of who you are. And matches well on you given you live life as a woman, and I presume you look like a woman.

Given you are younger than Bruce Jenner I'm going to make a guess that you look a lot better, you are a lot more attractive looking woman, than he is.

Thank you for saying this. I am generally accepted as a woman by society. At least, I get called "ma'am" all the time and I've never been questioned in the bathroom. That aside, attractiveness is subjective and I generally don't think highly of my looks. Anyway...

But I have no ill will towards Bruce Jenner himself. I find his descent from the top pyramid throne of masculinity tragic. But a good lesson that even accomplished men can be less than perfect, that they can have their own secret problems and dilemmas as well. Sexual even.

I would find it less tragic--due to some personal bias--had Bruce never been an Olympic champion, on the box of Wheaties, blessed to receive an attractive blond wife due to his high social standing. But rather had been born an impoverished boy in Brazil or Thailand that at age 14 or so transitioned into a girl.

I really don't have anything invested into Jenner. I am almost unfamiliar with the story of the Olympic feat, because it was before my time, but I have heard about it. I also never willingly watched the Kardashian show.

That being said, I wish Jenner well and I don't envy the publicness of her transition. Mine has been public enough to be uncomfortable, despite being treated well by those around me. Having hundreds of cameras on someone during this process, judging every moment, would be awful.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Sooooo.. we're blaming transsexualism on inappropriate contentography now?

I've heard that theory before (not in a credible fashion of any kind lol).

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not trying to belittle Christians or insult them...this is directed at a subset of the group.

But, with that being said, I've noticed that it's a common tactic to try to find a "worldly" or "secular" related cause for issues because "it can't be that there's an issue that the bible doesn't have all of the answers for...it just can't be".

...and sorry if that comes across as snarky.

"It's because he he didn't get affection from his father"
"It's because of dirty magazines"
"He's doing it for publicity"
"It's because the devil is poisoning society"
etc. etc...

This attitude that "The bible is 100% literal truth on every single issue, and if someone is going through something that doesn't fall in line with that...they're either lying about it, or society did something to make them that way"

Many Christians always try to explain these types of things by somehow linking them as a "consequence for not doing things the Christian way", making it sound as if the person's condition "could have been prevented if they just listened to us"....not even being willing to even consider the possibility that the person might have truly been born that way and nothing would've changed it and that there's some things in life that happen that there's not a biblical answer for.

Note: I said many Christians...not all.

As an atheist I view Bruce's situation the same way the medical community views it...a psychiatric abnormality similar to bi-polar, anxiety, etc...

...and thus far, the treatment that has worked the best for people with that abnormality is gender re-assignment since there's no pill that fixes the issue as of yet.
 
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mkgal1

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The recent media coverage of Bruce Jenner has revealed that he claims to be a Christian. Some might dispute his claim. However, In an age where Satan has accomplished so much, I do not think we should be surprised to see what many might consider "walking wounded" on the Christian battlefield.

Consider a home where a small boy grows up hungry for his father's attention. Instead he finds his fathers stack of inappropriate contentography and starts to think that if he looked like the pictures, he might finally obtain his father's love. As the child grows and incorporates this thinking into moments of stimulation, he may come to think that he really is female in some way.

The National Institutes for Health (who have every political reason to promote the transsexual ideology) advise against surgery for the reason of such a high incidence of suicide. This would seem to indicate that something other than transsexualism is actually going on.

There are many conditions that come to exists because of a world that is designed by Satan to destroy families and oppose Christianity. As Christians we should be careful not to shoot our own wounded, but to show compassion for those who have been "wounded".

I agree with your last line (showing compassion is what I believe we are called to do). Compassion includes listening---understanding---being empathetic.

If anyone is interested in taking the time---I thought this was a great video recorded in a Sunday evening forum:

Transgender and Christian - Forums - All Saints Church
 
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StephanieSomer

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StephanieSomer

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So, in light of you bringing up my motivations (far enough question), I'm asking again as to how it is you have several transsexual friends that remain married?

Seems statistically unlikely unless you travel in certain circles or are involved in certain circles. Gangster hang around gangsters, Democrats around Democrats, liberal Christians around Christians that subscribe to their same views, lifestyle, and values. Crack addicts hang around crack addicts (excepted those in recovery usually).

I imagine parents or siblings of a transsexual child or sibling often place themselves in social, political environments promoting the transsexual cause, and thereby increase the number of their friends and associates that are transsexuals.


Statistically unlikely? I don't see why. Statistically, there is likely a bit over 5000 trans individuals in my area, which is southeast Virginia. I know about 100 of them from support meetings over a few years. Out of 100 individuals, it's actually pretty normal to know several that are still married. I haven't been attending support meetings for the last two years +. But, I still maintain contact with a handful of friends I made there. But, well over 99% of my life is spent interacting with non-trans people; neighbors, co-workers, the usual.
 
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