Bruce Jenner

[AvilaSurfer]

Yeah, I know. It just makes my head hurt.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

This man who wants to be a woman needs deliverance from demons of darkness, repent of his sins and turn to God almighty. Kris Jenner still has a man's DNA and he always will. He has yielded to the devil, that is why he is unhappy. And PS, he makes a very ugly "woman".

Kris Jenner is Bruce's ex wife. If she's really a man. I like to know how she gave birth 6 beautiful kids.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

I'm so glad Bruce has came out. And hopefully he could help other transgender come to terms with their gender identity.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Bruce showed OUTSTANDING determination and Discipline in the 1970s. He trained for 8 hours EVERYDAY for TWO YEARS!

I do not believe that Bruce is doing this for publicity; who would cause so much pain for his family to get a some publicity? Bruce has had so much publicity that he is probably sick of it.

Bruce says that he is a woman in his soul and had been for over 50 years. He now wants to dress like a woman and make his appearance like a woman but is sexually a male with male parts and his sexual orientation is for women. I just cannot understand all that!

What I do understand is that Bruce says he is a conservative Christian and that he has suffered and is suffering. It is very obvious that his children love him and stand behind him. That tells me a lot about Bruce as a person. I feel that a person’s two top jobs in this world are his relationships to his God and then second to his children. I am convinced that Bruce is doing real well with his children and I cannot speculate on his relationship with God. However, he says that he is a Christian and I have no proof to prove that he is not.

I am completely baffled by Bruce situation but I did notice that he looked to the Bible for God’s opinion and that he has a very good relation with his children. I agree with the OP that said:

“As Christians we should be careful not to shoot our own wounded, but to show compassion for those who have been "wounded".

 

[Armoured]

Could you explain those political reasons? I really don't see it.



For a time, he held the world record in the Olympic decathlon.

Well today I learned something.

 

[Armoured]

What's interesting is this guy wants to change into a woman but has never been attracted to men, so now Bruce Jenner is a lesbian.

That's not actually as odd as it sounds. There are many transgender people who don't identify with the sexuality you'd expect. It really is something of a separate issue, but has kind of been lumped in with homosexuality kind of by default. Remember it's only recently that transsexuality and homosexuality have approached acceptability. Until recently most people weren't really very interested in learning enough about the two conditions to understand they're not interchangeable.

I knew a transwoman once who transitioned while married, that is, a born male and female marriage, and they stayed together afterwards, last I heard, quite happily so. And I believe even that isn't that unusual.

 

[Armoured]

Kris Jenner is Bruce's ex wife. If she's really a man. I like to know how she gave birth 6 beautiful kids.

Sooooo... how many kids has she had? How many are Kardasians? Do I really care? If so, why?

 

[StephanieSomer]

I knew a transwoman once who transitioned while married, that is, a born male and female marriage, and they stayed together afterwards, last I heard, quite happily so. And I believe even that isn't that unusual.

I have several transsexual friends that remained married. It's not at all unusual.

 

[Sistrin]

As an autistic adult, I am aware that gender dysphoria is more common among autistics than it is the general population. It would be odd, actually, to attempt to divide into competing camps that rue one getting attention as if it were somehow at the cost of the other...

Network and news executives make decisions concerning what stories they will promote, and currently Jenner's story is a cause celeb made-to-order pet agenda narrative. Pity the poor woman who is actually a guy who only thinks he is a woman oppression oppression oppression evil conservatives.

And autism awareness month becomes celebrate transgender month, particularly when considering the coverage the five year old crowned as developed enough to know she wants to be a boy is factored in.

Neither state of being particularly requires us to be sad.

Jenner's story is sad because he is sick. Yet his story is being seized upon by those willing to use him to promote a cause.

This man who wants to be a woman needs deliverance from demons of darkness...

Agreed

 

[SuperCloud]

Kris Jenner is Bruce's ex wife. If she's really a man. I like to know how she gave birth 6 beautiful kids.

Yeah, I chuckled when I read what she wrote about Kris Kenner, mixing her up with Bruce. Although, I was thinking Kris was one of the daughters.

At any rate, what I wanted to post about. In a thread on the Ethics and Morals board someone started a thread about what they termed "cowardness." I think that was the name of the thread actually. I referred them to the movie The Big Kahuna starring Kevin Spacey and Danny Devito. In particular I suggested they go on youtube and look at a small portion of the movie under the clip "Honest Man."

I agree with Danny Devito in that portion of the movie. Hence, in that thread I stated a lot of people are too dishonest to be blunt. (They are not using tact to avoid being blunt.)

I think what you wrote above evidences your true feelings on the issues of whether people born girls with normal XY chromosomes, that have sex changes, are really men and males or not.

Though, if I'm blunt--for honesty on the issue, not to not use tact on an individual standing in front of me that is transsexual--and state bluntly that transsexuals are people born of one sex but have a contradicting gender, and that gender and biological sex are not one and the same, and that even if Kris Jenner had a sex change she would never in truth be a man, you'd view me as a bad person. Interesting how that works. How participating in blatant lies gives the perception of being "good."

I'm so glad Bruce has came out. And hopefully he could help other transgender come to terms with their gender identity.

You just contradicted yourself above by implying that if Kris Jenner was a man she could never give birth to children.

I agree with you that Bruce Jenner's gender identity is female. The feminine. But his actual biological sex is male. Stepping on a land mine and having his genitals blown off (as some male soldiers have happen) does not change his biological sex or remove him from being a man. Even if a drug cartel member tied him up and castrated him for punishment he would still be a man. And it would be rather wicked to imply male combat soldiers and anyone boy forcibly castrated is woman or girl. Not that you argued that, but it logically follows from certain propositions about true biological sex change occurring from genitals being removed.

I have no ill will towards Bruce Jenner. He is lucky he is a white man though, no matter his choices, delusions, or sins as a father or husband. Had he been born a mulatto male like me in the USA--or black--he'd be regarded as bad from day 1 and throughout the rest of his life, "guilty until you can prove innocence," kind of thing.

Especially at his age and being married and more especially being a father... I don't agree with his choice to have a sex change. I think he is a tragic case. But not Charles Manson or some serial rapist. But though he has fallen far from the height of where he once was as a man I cannot judge him (his inner depths through his journey, and soul that is). I have my own sins and tragedies.

Although I know it is totally Politically Incorrect today to say this, but my view is that there is something special about being a man that all women out look up to. No Girl Power, Hillary Clinton, The View TV Show, or women entering the Army Rangers can change that. But raising boys into men via good character traits is a more rare and rare thing. We "all are the same" or "girls are better" they say. Which is the religion of most. It's not my religion though.

And I believe Jesus was masculine, in the cultural traits of that during his time. And I believe He had a muscularly chiseled carpenters chest, arms, abs, and back. I don't think he was built like chubby drug cartel members, a overweight white collar work making big bucks, or had a lot of fat around his waistline from being a bookworm.

 

[contratodo]

" He now wants to dress like a woman and make his appearance like a woman but is sexually a male with male parts and his sexual orientation is for women."

A bit tricky, but, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
And "Let your yes be yes and your no be no."
Also Matthew 6:28 should lead one to dress in just basic clothes and not be at all worried about what your going to put on, let God provide it for you; would God provide a man with women's clothes?

 

[SuperCloud]

I was going to stay out of this thread.

Sdmsanjose said:

What I do understand is that Bruce says he is a conservative Christian and that he has suffered and is suffering.

I accept the reality in this world that each person creates their own religion. Yes, Bruce beliefs which include his beliefs he is a conservative Christian is his religion. It is not my religion, however.

Bruce, Obama, and the US Supreme Court Justices may all share the same religious beliefs, which include waging a billion dollar war to hunt and incarcerate cocaine addicts like myself. Or send us into reeducation program. And then in defiance of its epigenetic reality, pontificate from on high about how such people like myself have "choices." And when it comes to sexual fetishes like Bruce wanting to walk around like a woman and be emasculated I'm am suppose to empty my head of all its brain cells and by faith Evangelically praise the academic, statistical, scientific research twisting by these American Bishops of the American state and see things other than what they truly are. As sexually addicted as most American are.

It is very obvious that his children love him and stand behind him. That tells me a lot about Bruce as a person. I feel that a person’s two top jobs in this world are his relationships to his God and then second to his children. I am convinced that Bruce is doing real well with his children and I cannot speculate on his relationship with God. However, he says that he is a Christian and I have no proof to prove that he is not.

I am completely baffled by Bruce situation but I did notice that he looked to the Bible for God’s opinion and that he has a very good relation with his children. I agree with the OP that said:

Listen... as a child I had some cousins that I thought had the perfect home life. Then one evening arriving at my grandmothers house, as my aunt left, all the truth came out. Their home life was way worse than mine.

Now, as an adult, I'm much more aware that people, families, often play roles and act in front of others.

You can't believe everything you see or hear.

His children may well love him. But it would not surprise me if that whole family has vested interest--no matter through what problems or dysfunctions go on in their home--to unite before the public eye and fall into what acting rolls they will.

Bruce may well have a great relationship with his children. I can't know for certain if that is the actual case or not, as I'm on the outside looking in. Plus, I've never met any one of them.

 

[bhsmte]

The good news is; nothing Bruce Jenner does, has any real bearing on how each person decides to live their life.

 

[SuperCloud]

I have several transsexual friends that remained married. It's not at all unusual.

I know several crack addicts and excons on no small part due to neighborhood culture and my own "circle" I've moved in. And I've come across a number of black transsexual prostitutes because they pretty much took over the prostitution around the blocks around my former apartment building.

Going back to circle of friends or neighborhood or whatever. I'm curious as to how it is you have several transsexual friends that remain married?

You know what I love about Jesus? Know matter how many Americans pontificate that they and the circles they travel in are better than me all due to sexual clings and what they pontificate is morally right, Jesus comes along and gives the impression to me that I should not believe any of these Americans.

And no... I don't care about how many Americans in your circle "pay taxes," that most sacred of all American pontificated values. Try and impress Jesus with how much taxes you all pay, maybe He will be impressed, but I'm not.

A husband has a duty to his wife and children before himself. That is my religion. Now, you Americans and Western Europeans can take out your stones and start throwing them.

 

[SuperCloud]

The good news is; nothing Bruce Jenner does, has any real bearing on how each person decides to live their life.

Now this, I can agree with.

And deep down I really have no ill will towards Bruce.

But I do feel or sort of sadness for him. Mainly because I was a little kid when he was on the Wheaties boxes, and perceive him as having fallen far from his throne he once was blessed to have or be on. Plus, he's old.

If he were a teenage boy doing this or a guy in his 20s I would likely feel different. Probably because at those ages you might well make a good looking girl or woman.

 

[bhsmte]

Now this, I can agree with.

And deep down I really have no ill will towards Bruce.

But I do feel or sort of sadness for him. Mainly because I was a little kid when he was on the Wheaties boxes, and perceive him as having fallen far from his throne he once was blessed to have or be on. Plus, he's old.

If he were a teenage boy doing this or a guy in his 20s I would likely feel different. Probably because at those ages you might well make a good looking girl or woman.

I am quite certain, his situation has caused him a lot of inner turmoil, which he has seemed to be able to navigate through.

 

[StephanieSomer]

I agree with you that Bruce Jenner's gender identity is female. The feminine. But his actual biological sex is male. Stepping on a land mine and having his genitals blown off (as some male soldiers have happen) does not change his biological sex or remove him from being a man. Even if a drug cartel member tied him up and castrated him for punishment he would still be a man. And it would be rather wicked to imply male combat soldiers and anyone boy forcibly castrated is woman or girl. Not that you argued that, but it logically follows from certain propositions about true biological sex change occurring from genitals being removed.

There is some truth to what you say here, but also some misconceptions. The word "sex", as a noun, has more than one definition. There is the genetic sense of sex, which I believe you are referencing as the "biological" sex. This is accurately called the genotype. There is also the genital sense of sex. That is accurately called the phenotype.

There are numerous ways in which the genotype and the phenotype do not coincide. CAIS is a genetic physical condition in which a person with XY genes develops as a female. All outward physical characteristics are female. And, generally the psyche is also. So the person is born female, identifies as female, and is treated completely as female. However, the genotype of the person is male. So, they have no internal organs that align with female. Instead of ovaries, they have undescended testes. Most cases are never recognized until the person fails to experience menses. These individuals are predominantly actually more beautiful in appearance than a female born with XX. Many of them marry, and have satisfying relationships with their husbands even though they are sterile.

In such a case, would you consider this individual as male, or female? They are genotypically male, yet phenotypically female. Most importantly though, they identify internally as female. Which brings me to the third definition of the word "sex".

Gender. By design, gender, genotype and phenotype SHOULD align. At least by God's original intent, as we understand it. It's clearly obvious they do not always align. God's original design is barely noticeable in MOST of creation. Nearly everything HAS changed. We are left to deal with the result.

So, WHAT is the proper way to deal with mis-aligned sexual characteristics? It is clear in Scripture that God's over-encompassing motivation is compassion. Can it be defended that to oppose the alleviation of the suffering of individuals as this is compassionate? Doubtful; especially in light of the lack of any Scriptural mandate being trespassed by transition. Can anyone actually defend the position that these people should remain in their agony, simply to satisfy someone else's preferences? What other remedy for the agony can you provide which HAS worked.

You do not appreciate the full depth of the agony that is endured. I get that. But, your inability to identify with it does in no way negate it's truth. I will be honest here. It is highly doubtful that MOST of you could endure it. Many who DO live with it don't. That's why the suicide rate is so awfully high among those who have this condition. I personally know well over 100 transsexuals, and am one myself. I have never met another transsexual, in person or online, that has not struggled with suicide. MOST of us have attempted it.

To blithely dismiss treatment that is PROVEN to give relief is incredibly selfish and unthinkable. For anyone to defend such a position as "Godly", especially without any Scriptural support, is just beyond the capacity of my mind to comprehend.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Now this, I can agree with.

And deep down I really have no ill will towards Bruce.

But I do feel or sort of sadness for him. Mainly because I was a little kid when he was on the Wheaties boxes, and perceive him as having fallen far from his throne he once was blessed to have or be on. Plus, he's old.

If he were a teenage boy doing this or a guy in his 20s I would likely feel different. Probably because at those ages you might well make a good looking girl or woman.

Interesting that you openly imply your opposition would waver, based on the outward appearances of outcome. That calls into question your motivation for opposition.

 

[Armoured]

The good news is; nothing Bruce Jenner does, has any real bearing on how each person decides to live their life.

But what if he gets gay married and some poor baker is forced to bake a cake? Won't somebody please think of the bakers?

 

[nightflight]

But what if he gets gay married and some poor baker is forced to bake a cake? Won't somebody please think of the bakers?

I hope he isn't harassed by the tolerance crowd for admitting to being a Republican.