BREXIT: Revocation

[mindlight]

You just had your second referendum. It's Leave 2, Remain 0.



Not if you add UKIP's votes to the Brexit party's total.



Both are formally pro-Brexit, albeit after a trade deal has been implemented. It was May who invoked article 50 to start the Brexit process, and Corbyn's support for Brexit is no secret.

Nope:

BREXIT + UKIP = 31.6 + 3.3 = 34.9%

Lib Dems + Greens + Change + Nationalists = 20.3 + 12.1 + 3.4 + 3.6 + 1 + 0.7 = 41.1%

That is a significant victory over the BREXIT Parties.
In the link I provided earlier the Guardian calculated Tories at about 80% Leave and Labour at about 60% Remain. This still gave a significant margin to the Remain parties. In fact Remain would win a second referendum based on these results.

 

[mindlight]

You keep talking about Germany etc etc etc but the subject is not about Germany, It's about Britain leaving the EU. And this is a Christian forum, so I assumed sincere people would be looking at this situation from a Christian perspective.

This is the EU website: The EU in brief | European Union


According to their own website, their goal is not to promote free speech, here's the list from their website:

The goals of the European Union are:

• promote peace, its values and the well-being of its citizens
• offer freedom, security and justice without internal borders
• sustainable development based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive market economy with full employment and social progress, and environmental protection
• combat social exclusion and discrimination
• promote scientific and technological progress
• enhance economic, social and territorial cohesion and solidarity among EU countries
• respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity
• establish an economic and monetary union whose currency is the euro.

You are trying to represent the EU in a manner that they themselves do not claim to be pursuing.



I entered this thread by posting who I wanted to see as the new leader of the conservatives and you apparently don't like the idea of a Britain Exiting,fine. I'm not here to convert you, I would however encourage you to learn the facts about these things.

I live here and you are delusional about the antichrist nature of the EU. The only really problematic thing is the gay lobby and feminists demanding abortions etc. But there is no difference on either side of the channel on that one and leaving the EU will not make the slightest difference.

Germany is at the heart of the EU , has no sunday trading, respects Christian holidays and probably has more people on church on Sunday. Go to Poland or Italy and they make the church in England look puny by comparison.

Read the link for the comparisons , Britain is near the bottom of the faith list in the EU though I admit FRance is worse. Why will leaving an organisation that is more Christian than the British domestic scene help Christianity in Britain?

Religion in the European Union - Wikipedia

 

[All Englands Skies]

Nope:

BREXIT + UKIP = 31.6 + 3.3 = 34.9%

Lib Dems + Greens + Change + Nationalists = 20.3 + 12.1 + 3.4 + 3.6 + 1 + 0.7 = 41.1%

That is a significant victory over the BREXIT Parties.
In the link I provided earlier the Guardian calculated Tories at about 80% Leave and Labour at about 60% Remain. This still gave a significant margin to the Remain parties. In fact Remain would win a second referendum based on these results.

if you go by official party positions, not gray areas, soldier of the king is actually right and you're not, Conservatives and Labour are a mess, but look at their official websites and they say they respect the referendum and Britain will leave the EU, labours website says;

"Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU. But we will not support any Tory deal that would do lasting damage to jobs, rights and living standards."

if you don't believe the above statement, please check labours official website, thanks

While its never as simple as official terms and its never black and white, I am afraid its the only measure to really judge, as gray areas can be used to justify any position, ie like the well known "tradition" of just backing lib dems when your fed up with the big two parties and how the SNP only matter in scotland and they were treated like a separate remain entity back in 2016, but now being used as a part of the bigger picture by remainers when it suits.

So by official statements to the electorate Conservatives and Labour respect the referendum and the UK will leave the EU.

So officially 57.7 = leave and 41.2 = remain and the left over is independents. the gray areas are subjective, as their is entire paradoxes on the way people vote. ie there is still people who vote lib dems as the protest vote out of habit and how even an anti-eu person who is a eco-fanatic would still vote greens, also the fact there is both labour and conservatives who are remainers, even though their parties officially respect Brexit. But sadly for you, official stances only matter as that's what people are officially voting for.

But you'll come back with more spin to refute this. carefully lumping the remainers into one mass, while splitting the leave vote into "hard Brexit" and "soft Brexit" all the pro-EU sites are comparing remainers specifically to "hard" Brexit parties, dismissing the fact Conservatives and Labour are officially leave with deal at time of elections, but even if you think conservatives/labour are messing up Brexit and have false intentions, their positions of leaving with a deal, is still a leave policy.

 

[All Englands Skies]

You just had your second referendum. It's Leave 2, Remain 0.



Not if you add UKIP's votes to the Brexit party's total.



Both are formally pro-Brexit, albeit after a trade deal has been implemented. It was May who invoked article 50 to start the Brexit process, and Corbyn's support for Brexit is no secret.

in elections, only formal policies can be judged as the "real results", wether right or wrong, as gray areas and voting paradoxes are subjective.

Conservatives and Labour both officially back a Brexit with some kind of deal, says so on their policy websites, so that's what people officially voted for when they voted them, some kind of Brexit, with deal.

so officially leave = 57.7%, remain = 41.2%, the other 3% give or take independents.

yet by bringing in gray areas and technicalities they say remain won, but that is impossible if you read the official party stances which people are officially casting their votes for.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

So officially 57.7 = leave and 41.2 = remain and the left over is independents. the gray areas are subjective, as their is entire paradoxes on the way people vote. ie there is still people who vote lib dems as the protest vote out of habit and how even an anti-eu person who is a eco-fanatic would still vote greens, also the fact there is both labour and conservatives who are remainers, even though their parties officially respect Brexit. But sadly for you, official stances only matter as that's what people are officially voting for.

The only political party that is anti-Brexit in the same way that the Brexit Party and UKIP are pro-Brexit, that is to say, specifically formed to oppose Brexit, is Change UK. We can see how they did...

Also, compare the results with those of the 2014 Euro elections. We saw how the referendum turned out two years after those, and the share of the vote that went for pro-Brexit parties in the Euro elections has only increased...

 

[All Englands Skies]

The only political party that is anti-Brexit in the same way that the Brexit Party and UKIP are pro-Brexit, that is to say, specifically formed to oppose Brexit, is Change UK. We can see how they did...

Also, compare the results with those of the 2014 Euro elections. We saw how the referendum turned out two years after those, and the share of the vote that went for pro-Brexit parties in the Euro elections has only increased...

going by official policies, leave got 57.7%, that's then divided into leavers who are prepared to leave with no deal, if no satisfactory deal is offered (its a myth there just leave with no deal, they say that they will leave without one if no deal is made by October 31st) who at 35% means that majority of leavers back no deal if needed, the rest of the leave vote is then leave, but must come to an arrangement with the EU.

So within the leave vote, those prepared to leave with no deal have won more.

but remainers, they've won 41.2% based on policy.

they cant make the argument that people only voted lib dems and greens 100% on their EU policy, but then deny that Conservatives and Labour voters cant be considered that they 100% voted on Conservative/Labour's EU policies, which is Leave + some sort of deal/withdrawal agreement, not remain.

 

[mindlight]

if you go by official party positions, not gray areas, soldier of the king is actually right and you're not, Conservatives and Labour are a mess, but look at their official websites and they say they respect the referendum and Britain will leave the EU, labours website says;

"Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU. But we will not support any Tory deal that would do lasting damage to jobs, rights and living standards."

if you don't believe the above statement, please check labours official website, thanks

While its never as simple as official terms and its never black and white, I am afraid its the only measure to really judge, as gray areas can be used to justify any position, ie like the well known "tradition" of just backing lib dems when your fed up with the big two parties and how the SNP only matter in scotland and they were treated like a separate remain entity back in 2016, but now being used as a part of the bigger picture by remainers when it suits.

So by official statements to the electorate Conservatives and Labour respect the referendum and the UK will leave the EU.

So officially 57.7 = leave and 41.2 = remain and the left over is independents. the gray areas are subjective, as their is entire paradoxes on the way people vote. ie there is still people who vote lib dems as the protest vote out of habit and how even an anti-eu person who is a eco-fanatic would still vote greens, also the fact there is both labour and conservatives who are remainers, even though their parties officially respect Brexit. But sadly for you, official stances only matter as that's what people are officially voting for.

But you'll come back with more spin to refute this. carefully lumping the remainers into one mass, while splitting the leave vote into "hard Brexit" and "soft Brexit" all the pro-EU sites are comparing remainers specifically to "hard" Brexit parties, dismissing the fact Conservatives and Labour are officially leave with deal at time of elections, but even if you think conservatives/labour are messing up Brexit and have false intentions, their positions of leaving with a deal, is still a leave policy.

You bolded only the first part of Labours website statement. Hard BREXIT or the deal on the table will do lasting damage to jobs. There is no prospect of changing the deal. So Labour need to reassess. But you are correct at the moment they stand with leave. But since most of their supporters are remainers and they lost most votes to remain parties they stand to gain from altering their policies.

Going by what the people want there is significant majority for Remain. This is Bourne out by all the latest polls.

The party that leads us out of the EU against the people's will will be punished for that electorally.

 

[Francis Drake]

I am utterly amazed at the gross dishonesty of Remain supporters in their false interpretation of the election results.

If that perverted methodology is applied to this election, then it must also be applied to all elections, which would of course mean the true winners were actually the losers.
Meaning that Tony Blair's prime ministership was a fraud.
Meaning that the Netherlands did NOT win the Eurovision song contest.
Meaning that none of UK union leaders are legally in office.
Meaning that all the Olympic results need to be revisited.
etc.
etc.

Isaiah5v20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
(............….and who substitute winners for losers and losers for winners.)

Those who advocate that politicians should overturn what the people have chosen are on very dangerous grounds. If you succeed in persuading them to renege this time around, you will have given them the ammunition to do it any time they choose.

Westminster is rightly called the Mother of all Parliaments, and you are party to making it into a tyranny.

Shame on you all for your inability to accept defeat, and your chosen path of duplicity.
Have you no conscience before God?

 

[All Englands Skies]

You bolded only the first part of Labours website statement. Hard BREXIT or the deal on the table will do lasting damage to jobs. There is no prospect of changing the deal. So Labour need to reassess. But you are correct at the moment they stand with leave. But since most of their supporters are remainers and they lost most votes to remain parties they stand to gain from altering their policies.

Going by what the people want there is significant majority for Remain. This is Bourne out by all the latest polls.

The party that leads us out of the EU against the people's will will be punished for that electorally.

Labours stance says clearly that they respect the referendum and we will leave the EU at the time of the election, even if they reassess, its irrelevant, that was their stance at the time of election, if you voted for labour, you voted for a policy to still leave the EU, just with a deal.

earlier on this thread, when somebody pointed out protest votes in lib dems and greens, you made it clear that it was based strictly on their EU policy

do by the same measure, you have to base the conservative and labour votes strictly on EU policy at the time of election and as you've said, you admitted I am currently right on labours stance. But you cannot retrofit labour as a score for remain at the time of the vote if they now turn into a remain party after the fact. Also remember, a lot of labour remainers jumped ship to libs, while the "true reds", the unionists and far left socialist wing of labour that stays loyal to the end, has many far left leavers in its ranks.

as it stands, leave won, based on party policies (its irrelevant if its insincere, you vote on policies at face value, unless you enter the land of subjective) with 57.7 of the vote.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

You bolded only the first part of Labours website statement. Hard BREXIT or the deal on the table will do lasting damage to jobs. There is no prospect of changing the deal. So Labour need to reassess.

Whatever sort of arrangement with the EU one prefers, why can't it wait until after Brexit? Especially considering that Brussels appears unwilling to negotiate in good faith. The UK should be able to negotiate from a stronger position from outside the EU. Say whatever else you want about a WTO Brexit, the fact that it is based on rules that were put in place before Brexit was decided means that it won't unduly favor one party over the other.

The party that leads us out of the EU against the people's will will be punished for that electorally.

What, if not the people's will, got Brexit on the table in the first place? Certainly not Parliament.

 

[Goonie]

Whatever sort of arrangement with the EU one prefers, why can't it wait until after Brexit? Especially considering that Brussels appears unwilling to negotiate in good faith. The UK should be able to negotiate from a stronger position from outside the EU. Say whatever else you want about a WTO Brexit, the fact that it is based on rules that were put in place before Brexit was decided means that it won't unduly favor one party over the other.



What, if not the people's will, got Brexit on the table in the first place? Certainly not Parliament.

David "I have a clever plan" Cameron put Brexit on the table. It's Pandora's box without hope.

 

[All Englands Skies]

David "I have a clever plan" Cameron put Brexit on the table. It's Pandora's box without hope.

The EU at its core is a Economic and political union, its not thermo-nuclear warfare.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

David "I have a clever plan" Cameron put Brexit on the table. It's Pandora's box without hope.

Yes, it was a slow day at 10 Downing Street and Prime Minister Cameron was feeling rather bored. What to do, what to do? Then suddenly, a light bulb went off in his head. "I know, I know!" I'll call a referendum on the UK's membership in the EU! Surely that will provide endless amusement!"

Rather, I was asking about how withdrawal from the EU went from being an almost fringe position twenty years ago to being at the center of political debate today...

 

[mindlight]

I am utterly amazed at the gross dishonesty of Remain supporters in their false interpretation of the election results.

If that perverted methodology is applied to this election, then it must also be applied to all elections, which would of course mean the true winners were actually the losers.
Meaning that Tony Blair's prime ministership was a fraud.
Meaning that the Netherlands did NOT win the Eurovision song contest.
Meaning that none of UK union leaders are legally in office.
Meaning that all the Olympic results need to be revisited.
etc.
etc.

Isaiah5v20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
(............….and who substitute winners for losers and losers for winners.)

Those who advocate that politicians should overturn what the people have chosen are on very dangerous grounds. If you succeed in persuading them to renege this time around, you will have given them the ammunition to do it any time they choose.

Westminster is rightly called the Mother of all Parliaments, and you are party to making it into a tyranny.

Shame on you all for your inability to accept defeat, and your chosen path of duplicity.
Have you no conscience before God?

This is about the peoples choice, They voted leave in 2016. But it is not a dishonest analysis of the results to see a majority for Remain in the voting patterns from the EU election. Particluarly since all the latest polls on this issue put Remain on top. Whatever the Tory and Labour party politicians committed to in their manifestos was decisively rejected by the electorate and a clear demand for revision of those policies was declared. The BREXIT party wants a hard BREXIT as soon as possible and thought the Tories were simply not delivering. The Lib Dems and Greens and Nationalists and Change who together got some 6% more votes than the BREXIT and UKIP combined rejected the deal on the table and expressed a clear preference to remain in Europe. The official policies of both parties will probably be revised as a result of the wipe outs that Labour and the Tories experienced. The Tories are likely to elect a hard BREXiTEER though how he is going to implement that against the wish of parliament and the people is anyones guess. Labour are dominated by hard left activists who want to build a Marxist state in the aftermath of the BREXIT disaster and what they think will be the inevitable fall of the Tory government after implementing BREXIT. So as long as these people are in charge of Labour any calls for a second referendum might not even include an option to vote remain.

In your blind desire for BREXIT you are missing what is happening here. BREXIT is going to be a disaster, Corbyn will probably become PM in the wake of that disaster and that will mean a double whammy for Britain with a government that cannot rule in charge of an unmitigated disaster.

The only way out of this dilemma is Revocation and the public actually see that and want that. What is criminal here is the deliberate obstruction of their politicians and especially in the Labour party of their expressed wishes.

 

[mindlight]

Whatever sort of arrangement with the EU one prefers, why can't it wait until after Brexit? Especially considering that Brussels appears unwilling to negotiate in good faith. The UK should be able to negotiate from a stronger position from outside the EU. Say whatever else you want about a WTO Brexit, the fact that it is based on rules that were put in place before Brexit was decided means that it won't unduly favor one party over the other.



What, if not the people's will, got Brexit on the table in the first place? Certainly not Parliament.

Why did the people vote BREXIT in the first place. IN part to simply stick it to the man in charge in Westminster who was massively unpopular and a complete phony. People who were marginalised and rejected by the current order made their voice heard by trying to overthrow that order. But actually they did not want to lose their jobs over this, they did not want a lower standard of living and less money available for defence and for public services. Now they know what BREXIT means the polls and the EU Election result is clear they do not want it. There is no waiting till after BREXIT is done cause it is a massive mistake.

 

[mindlight]

Labours stance says clearly that they respect the referendum and we will leave the EU at the time of the election, even if they reassess, its irrelevant, that was their stance at the time of election, if you voted for labour, you voted for a policy to still leave the EU, just with a deal.

earlier on this thread, when somebody pointed out protest votes in lib dems and greens, you made it clear that it was based strictly on their EU policy

do by the same measure, you have to base the conservative and labour votes strictly on EU policy at the time of election and as you've said, you admitted I am currently right on labours stance. But you cannot retrofit labour as a score for remain at the time of the vote if they now turn into a remain party after the fact. Also remember, a lot of labour remainers jumped ship to libs, while the "true reds", the unionists and far left socialist wing of labour that stays loyal to the end, has many far left leavers in its ranks.

as it stands, leave won, based on party policies (its irrelevant if its insincere, you vote on policies at face value, unless you enter the land of subjective) with 57.7 of the vote.

We live in a representative democracy and you are technically right while being wrong about the underlying realities. In Europe BREXIT has been a vaccine for the kind of separatism and nationalism and chaos that was tempted to follow its example. Most people in Britain can see that but are struggling to express their voice through political structures that are out of touch with them. The Tories are out of touch with a constituency that just wants them to do BREXIT. Labour is living out the Marxist revolutionary pipedreams of its leadership and anticipate using the disaster of BREXIT to put themselves in power to implement a version of government and economy that has never worked anywhere. Either way this issue is incredibly polarising and the centre of politics has been blown away by the partisan positions. Ruling such a divided Britain after all this is wrapped up ,one way or another, is a nightmare in waiting.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

But actually they did not want to lose their jobs over this, they did not want a lower standard of living and less money available for defence and for public services.

Jobs? Standard of living? Public services? Every November 11, the British people commemorate those who gave their lives to defend Britain's sovereignty.

 

[mindlight]

Jobs? Standard of living? Public services? Every November 11, the British people commemorate those who gave their lives to defend Britain's sovereignty.

Britain CAN leave if it wishes but if leaving costs it more than it gains then why? Many of those men died for a larger vision of country that included God and Empire. What is the larger vision of Britain, little England or European?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Britain CAN leave if it wishes but if leaving costs it more than it gains then why?

She gains he sovereignty...

Many of those men died for a larger vision of country that included God and Empire. What is the larger vision of Britain, little England or European?

Britain without an Empire is still a sovereign country. Looking for a Europe wide vision? Look at what's happened across the rest of continent. Look at the successes of Le Pen and Salvini. The British people don't stand alone. Look, and you'll see a political groundswell that brings a hope of a truly united Europe, unite not by some arcane bureaucracy in Brussels but by a common sense of purpose.

 

[Goonie]

She gains he sovereignty...



Britain without an Empire is still a sovereign country. Looking for a Europe wide vision? Look at what's happened across the rest of continent. Look at the successes of Le Pen and Salvini. The British people don't stand alone. Look, and you'll see a political groundswell that brings a hope of a truly united Europe, unite not by some arcane bureaucracy in Brussels but by a common sense of purpose.

Parliament was already sovereign.

And their are at least 6 million reasons to be against the rise of fascism in Europe which you are championing. A Europe fractured by competing ultranationalist countries is the exact opposite of United.