Breaking the commandments

[AbbaLove]

No opinion is going to change the Scriptural fact that we cannot have sex with our parents, brothers, sisters, etc. If anyone holds the opinion that we can, then they are spiritually sick and yet carnal.

If both a Jewish man and his future Jewish wife agree to have sex before marriage and both agree to abort their healthy fetus are they just as spiritually sick and carnal as your above example according to the Mosaic Law of the Torah?

I read that per capita abortions are as prevalent in Israel as in America. Here is an article excerpt from THE TIMES OF ISRAEL (Jan 2014) ...

Women can apply for abortions for reasons ranging from an emotional or mental threat caused by the pregnancy or for not being married to the baby’s father. All women who seek to end a pregnancy must appear before a three-member committee to state their case, but 98 percent of requests are approved. Women under the age of 20 or over the age of 40 were also previously eligible for subsidized abortions, regardless of the reason.
​

Israel's abortion law now among world's most liberal | The Times of Israel

 

[Meowzltov]

No opinion is going to change the Scriptural fact that we cannot have sex with our parents, brothers, sisters, etc. If anyone holds the opinion that we can, then they are spiritually sick and yet carnal.

I agree with what you just said, but can't answer fully without violating the SOP.

 

[visionary]

Assume you may be thinking of the 4th Commandment as more of an example of a God ordained "Ritual". Ritual commands as ordained by God were of Paramount Importance to the well-being of Israel. Then with the so-called advancement of Rabbinic Judaism and Christendom the word "ritual" took on new meaning as suspect (being man made) without certain Biblical proof.

When Steve says, "Yeah, God hates ritual" isn't he referring to additional man made religious add-on "rituals" ... whether they be found within Christendom or Rabbinic Judaism?

I don't see the fourth as a ritual, so unless you have evidence of its "ritualism" in the actual commandment itself, there is no God ordained ritual here.

 

[gadar perets]

If both a Jewish man and his future Jewish wife agree to have sex before marriage and both agree to abort their healthy fetus are they just as spiritually sick and carnal as your above example according to the Mosaic Law of the Torah?

Unless I am overlooking something in Torah, yes, they are spiritually sick and carnal. Are they not fornicating to begin with? As I understand Scripture, fornication is wrong even if both parties agree to it. Then, to premeditate on killing a life in the womb for no valid reason is the epitome of evil.

I read that per capita abortions are as prevalent in Israel as in America. Here is an article excerpt from THE TIMES OF ISRAEL (Jan 2014) ...

Women can apply for abortions for reasons ranging from an emotional or mental threat caused by the pregnancy or for not being married to the baby’s father. All women who seek to end a pregnancy must appear before a three-member committee to state their case, but 98 percent of requests are approved. Women under the age of 20 or over the age of 40 were also previously eligible for subsidized abortions, regardless of the reason.
​

Israel's abortion law now among world's most liberal | The Times of Israel

Israel is as susceptible to evil as is the rest of the world.

 

[visionary]

Unless I am overlooking something in Torah, yes, they are spiritually sick and carnal. Are they not fornicating to begin with? As I understand Scripture, fornication is wrong even if both parties agree to it. Then, to premeditate on killing a life in the womb for no valid reason is the epitome of evil.

Israel is as susceptible to evil as is the rest of the world.

High expectations from a nation that represents God's Will... Sad that they don't ..

 

[Meowzltov]

I don't see the fourth as a ritual, so unless you have evidence of its "ritualism" in the actual commandment itself, there is no God ordained ritual here.

The very fact that Shabbat divides time into Sacred and Ordinary, by having us alter our regular activities on the day, is a classic example of ritualistic behavior.

 

[visionary]

The very fact that Shabbat divides time into Sacred and Ordinary, by having us alter our regular activities on the day, is a classic example of ritualistic behavior.

NOOOOOOO... not so.... No keeping of a day makes it ritualistic... what makes any activity ritualistic is a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.

 

[pat34lee]

I read that per capita abortions are as prevalent in Israel as in America. Here is an article excerpt from THE TIMES OF ISRAEL (Jan 2014) ...

Israel may be the people of Yahweh, but that doesn't make them good. Most are non-religious or even atheists.

 

[Meowzltov]

NOOOOOOO... not so.... No keeping of a day makes it ritualistic... what makes any activity ritualistic is a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.

You have too narrow an understanding of ritual. A ritual can be prolonged, as in refraining from work over a day, so to divide sacred time from ordinary time. The abstention from work IS RITUAL BEHAVIOR.

 

[visionary]

The very fact that Shabbat divides time into Sacred and Ordinary, by having us alter our regular activities on the day, is a classic example of ritualistic behavior.

ritualistic behavior is the same routine like lighting candles. But God never dictated any ritual in the observance of the Sabbath. Some have taken the rest part more seriously than seeing it as a worship time with the congregation... etc.. so Sabbath keeping is not a ritual. You observe it in a variety of ways.

 

[Meowzltov]

ritualistic behavior is the same routine like lighting candles.

And refraining from work each Saturday, week after week, is a routine, a schema, a set ritual.

I'll say no more. I'm fine with you disagreeing.

 

[gadar perets]

And refraining from work each Saturday, week after week, is a routine, a schema, a set ritual.

I'll say no more. I'm fine with you disagreeing.

Is abstaining from adultery, stealing and murder day after day and week after week set rituals too?

 

[Meowzltov]

Is abstaining from adultery, stealing and murder day after day and week after week set rituals too?

Something you do all the time is not a ritual.

 

[gadar perets]

Something you do all the time is not a ritual.

So, if I put my right shoe on first all the time, that is not a ritual?

I try to keep the Sabbath holy every time it comes. I can't help it if it only comes every seventh day. If it came every day, I would try to keep it holy all the time.

 

[Meowzltov]

So, if I put my right shoe on first all the time, that is not a ritual?

I try to keep the Sabbath holy every time it comes. I can't help it if it only comes every seventh day. If it came every day, I would try to keep it holy all the time.

No one puts their shoe on all the time. If you do it consciously, then it is a ritual. There are Orthodox Jews who ritually put their right shoe on first, and folks with OCD who ritually dress as well.

What makes Shabbat specifically a ritual is that the behaviors are meant to divide Sacred time from Ordinary time.

Would you like to define "ritual"?

"Shabbat is the most important ritual observance in Judaism. " Judaism 101: Shabbat

 

[danny ski]

It's hilarious how so many Christians are afraid of "rituals". Yet, I've been to the Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic churches and if the Mass is not a ritual, I don't know what is.

 

[gadar perets]

No one puts their shoe on all the time. If you do it consciously, then it is a ritual. There are Orthodox Jews who ritually put their right shoe on first, and folks with OCD who ritually dress as well.

Correct. Therefore, your statement that, "Something you do all the time is not a ritual" is incorrect.

What makes Shabbat specifically a ritual is that the behaviors are meant to divide Sacred time from Ordinary time.

There are no behaviors that divide Sacred time from Ordinary time. The division is of YHWH. He has already divided it. All we do is add traditions/rituals that help to emphasize the division that He created.

Would you like to define "ritual"?

I have no reason to rewrite language definitions, so I will just agree with the following:

A religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.​

"Shabbat is the most important ritual observance in Judaism. " Judaism 101: Shabbat

If we are going to call Shabbat a ritual, then everything we do on a regular basis is a ritual.

 

[gadar perets]

It's hilarious how so many Christians are afraid of "rituals". Yet, I've been to the Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic churches and if the Mass is not a ritual, I don't know what is.

I agree they are rituals, but Shabbat is not. Shabbat is simply holy time that we are commanded to keep holy.

There is nothing wrong with rituals as long as they are commanded by the Almighty and do not cause people to be unduly burdened or cause them to break the commandments.

 

[visionary]

What ritual is commanded by God?

 

[danny ski]

I agree they are rituals, but Shabbat is not. Shabbat is simply holy time that we are commanded to keep holy.

There is nothing wrong with rituals as long as they are commanded by the Almighty and do not cause people to be unduly burdened or cause them to break the commandments.

Everything is a ritual. Bris, bar mitzvah, wedding, high holidays, burial. And, yes, Shabbat, too. Hence, we're commanded to keep it- it's an action, a conscious choice. There's no need to be afraid of the word- ritual- the Torah is build around it.