Breaking the commandments

[MysticFred82]

Thanks for everyone's help with understanding the Law and Jesus' teachings. I'm still having trouble understanding, so I want to start at the basics.

What happens when a non-messianic Jew, subject to the full law, breaks a ritual commandment? For example, if he forgets to ritually wash his hands or say a blessing before eating bread?
I know the Rabbis draw a distinction between accidental and intentional transgression. What about someone (like myself) who doesn't do the standing prayer twice daily and often will skip a day due to busyness or distraction?

How does believing in Christ and his atonement change this?

I would like to think that many of the mitzvot are opportunities for blessings and to serve God. If we don't fulfill them it's a missed opportunity, but not necessarily warranting judgement or punishment. We can try next time or we can work towards doing more.

Yet, the passage of I was hungry, I was sick, I was in prison, ect and you did not visit me gives me pause. God does hold our non-action with the mitzvot against us it seems.

-Fred

 

[visionary]

We don't worry about rituals... when it comes to our relationship with God. Only those things God requires concern us when it comes to how it affects our relationship with Him. All rituals requirements of Orthodox Judaism are interesting, maybe something we as individuals think are good, and as a congregational group may choose to incorporate, but no hard lines that I know of are drawn.

 

[Monna]

I'm not sure I have any right to post here, but the OP caught my eye. Forgive my intrusion, if it is an intrusion.

There are sins of commission (things we do that we shouldn't) and sins of omission (things we should do but don't). If we consider the 10 commandments, three are commands to do certain things; the other 7 are commands not to do various things. Our problem is partly that we think that if we don't do the 7 things listed, we have somehow fulfilled that part of the law.

Jesus reinterpreted the law, turning it sort of inside out, when he made it all about doing, and more or less ignoring the prohibitions: love the Lord your God with every part of your being, and love your neighbour as yourself. He might say "yes, you have not stolen; but have you given, and given in love?" Jesus did not tell the rich young man who came to him, and claimed to have kept the whole law, that he had not. Instead, he told him to sell everything he had, give the money to the poor, and follow him. The young man had quite possibly kept all the prohibitions, but there was no active, love-based behaviour towards others in his life.

Jesus himself could say "I do NOTHING that I do not see my Father doing, NOTHING that my Father does not tell me to do." (John 14:10) Not only so, God is love, and love permeated everything Jesus did. That is why the voice in the cloud of transfiguration could say "This is my son in whom I am well pleased." Jesus lived his relationship with the Father, he did not go about trying to keep commandments. But in living out his relationship he actually was the fulfillment of the law.

This is how, on the one hand, I as a believer, am free of the law; but if I follow Christ's example fully in love, I will automatically fulfill the deeper spirit and intent of the law. And the only way I can do this is by "abiding in him" so that it is not me that does anything, but Christ living in me. (Galatians 2:20). And it is only when I abide in Christ, and listen closely to the Holy Spirit's voice, that I will know when and how to act, or when to desist from acting. This is the only way I can be sure not to commit sins of omission.

1 Corinthians 13 goes further and insists that no matter what good things we do for others, if they are not done in love, God doesn't recognise them as "good." My own love is very limited, both in quality and in coverage (i.e. mostly my relatives, good friends, people I like). So I need Christ in me to live out his life of love and obedience to the Father.

The Mosaic law in itself was good. But it was unable to make us good in God's eyes. The ritual law, at least for me, is wonderfully rich in symbolising Jesus Christ - at least in those parts I can understand. So even there, the law can teach me many things, and enlarge my understanding of God. But in that the law pointed forward to Christ, and Christ has come and completed his work, I have no need to follow the ritual - I have Christ, the one of whom the rituals spoke. But I can appreciate the description of the rituals, indeed the law as a whole, for their portrayal of my Lord and Saviour.

 

[AlexDTX]

Thanks for everyone's help with understanding the Law and Jesus' teachings. I'm still having trouble understanding, so I want to start at the basics.

What happens when a non-messianic Jew, subject to the full law, breaks a ritual commandment? For example, if he forgets to ritually wash his hands or say a blessing before eating bread?
I know the Rabbis draw a distinction between accidental and intentional transgression. What about someone (like myself) who doesn't do the standing prayer twice daily and often will skip a day due to busyness or distraction?

How does believing in Christ and his atonement change this?

I would like to think that many of the mitzvot are opportunities for blessings and to serve God. If we don't fulfill them it's a missed opportunity, but not necessarily warranting judgement or punishment. We can try next time or we can work towards doing more.

Yet, the passage of I was hungry, I was sick, I was in prison, ect and you did not visit me gives me pause. God does hold our non-action with the mitzvot against us it seems.

-Fred

The commandments are irrelevant. If a Jew dies without Christ he will be judged according to his rejection of Christ. His obedience to the Mosaic law will only be used to show his utter failure in keeping the Law. This question, of course, can only be answered by God. Romans 2 gives us some ideas, but ultimately God will judge each person on a one by one case.

 

[MysticFred82]

Okay, you all are right in that going to heaven isn't based on ritual following of the law.

Maybe I need back up to my most fundamental question. "What do I do to be saved?" And related, what does salvation mean?


Acts 16:29-34
"29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household."

I am definitely not an evangelical though, no offense to any that are. Belief in the Greek I think means trust, follow just as much as intellectually agree with. In English, belief can also mean this. You believe in someone.

To me, salvation is also more than what happens to me after I die. It is how do I find refuge and peace in this life from the demonic (either allegorical or literal) forces that inflict misery both in the world and within my own heart and mind. I seek God's salvation in the here and now to transform my suffering and my brokenness into participating in His holiness. Ritual, especially prayer, is a powerful way to do that. I find I am who I want to be, who I feel called to be while I'm praying. Prayer is my salvation in a way.

So that's what I'm seeking in the study of Torah and mitzvot and in the use of tefflin and tallit during my morning prayers. It's also between God and I, to seek His presence not to comply with Rabbinical rules or gain man's approval. That being said I shouldn't be disrespectful of the traditions I'm borrowing from either, by wearing tefflin however I feel like for example.

But I definitely don't have it all figured it out and am continuing to wrestle with the different views in scripture, the teachings of the church and the Rabbis, and finding where God Himself calls and leads me.

 

[danny ski]

Okay, you all are right in that going to heaven isn't based on ritual following of the law.

Maybe I need back up to my most fundamental question. "What do I do to be saved?" And related, what does salvation mean?


Acts 16:29-34
"29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household."

I am definitely not an evangelical though, no offense to any that are. Belief in the Greek I think means trust, follow just as much as intellectually agree with. In English, belief can also mean this. You believe in someone.

To me, salvation is also more than what happens to me after I die. It is how do I find refuge and peace in this life from the demonic (either allegorical or literal) forces that inflict misery both in the world and within my own heart and mind. I seek God's salvation in the here and now to transform my suffering and my brokenness into participating in His holiness. Ritual, especially prayer, is a powerful way to do that. I find I am who I want to be, who I feel called to be while I'm praying. Prayer is my salvation in a way.

So that's what I'm seeking in the study of Torah and mitzvot and in the use of tefflin and tallit during my morning prayers. It's also between God and I, to seek His presence not to comply with Rabbinical rules or gain man's approval. That being said I shouldn't be disrespectful of the traditions I'm borrowing from either, by wearing tefflin however I feel like for example.

But I definitely don't have it all figured it out and am continuing to wrestle with the different views in scripture, the teachings of the church and the Rabbis, and finding where God Himself calls and leads me.

Hence, your confusion- trying to apply the Christian concept of salvation to a religious text that does not have it( the Torah).

 

[gadar perets]

But in that the law pointed forward to Christ, and Christ has come and completed his work, I have no need to follow the ritual - I have Christ, the one of whom the rituals spoke. But I can appreciate the description of the rituals, indeed the law as a whole, for their portrayal of my Lord and Saviour.

You seem to be saying the law and ritual are one and the same. If so, I disagree. There are rituals in the law, but there are many laws that are not rituals. The Day of Atonement contained rituals that have been fulfilled, but it is kept in remembrance of Yeshua's atoning work. We must not trample on that Holy day by working, etc. Nor should we break non-ritual laws such as not committing adultery, murder or fornication. Paul admonished the Corinthians several times to flee from and abstain from fornication. It takes effort and commitment on our part to avoid the works of the flesh. I fully understand that when we walk in the Spirit we will have victory over the flesh, but it is a war we must fight. A believer can easily yield to temptation if he/she is not totally committed to obeying the Almighty at all costs.

Abiding in Messiah and deepening our personal relationship with him will certainly aid us in fulfilling the law, but there are plenty of Christians in a deep relationship with him, yet they break the law because they are ignorant of it. Christ in them does not automatically make them obedient to the law. They must realize the law still exists and needs to be kept so they can begin fulfilling it through obedience. Until then, they will continue to grieve the Holy Spirit by their sins of omission/commission.

 

[MysticFred82]

Hence, your confusion- trying to apply the Christian concept of salvation to a religious text that does not have it( the Torah).

Danny ski, thanks! That's helpful.

Of course it could be argued that the same concept of salvation can be found in Old Testament, I'm sure others here would.

But what you pointed out to me is I'm using a particular contemplative approach that doesn't really apply to Judaism, even in Kabbalah. Talking about salvation from the deamons within my own mind is a very Eastern Orthodox and even monastic view of salvation which is also influenced by my past in Zen Buddhism with its teachings of non-self, mental suffering and delusion.

But there is also a common universality across faiths particularly with mysticism. It's a similarity of practice rather than doctrine that seeks self denial and participation in life and love of God. its out of that is why I pray the way I do, because it leads me closer (I hope). And to others they are lead on different paths. But is one God, there is no other beside Him.

 

[CherubRam]

Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21
[ True and False Disciples ] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

 

[Meowzltov]

Thanks for everyone's help with understanding the Law and Jesus' teachings. I'm still having trouble understanding, so I want to start at the basics.

What happens when a non-messianic Jew, subject to the full law, breaks a ritual commandment? For example, if he forgets to ritually wash his hands or say a blessing before eating bread?
I know the Rabbis draw a distinction between accidental and intentional transgression. What about someone (like myself) who doesn't do the standing prayer twice daily and often will skip a day due to busyness or distraction?

How does believing in Christ and his atonement change this?

I would like to think that many of the mitzvot are opportunities for blessings and to serve God. If we don't fulfill them it's a missed opportunity, but not necessarily warranting judgement or punishment. We can try next time or we can work towards doing more.

Yet, the passage of I was hungry, I was sick, I was in prison, ect and you did not visit me gives me pause. God does hold our non-action with the mitzvot against us it seems.

-Fred

I can't fully reply to this, as my answer would violate the SOP. I'll say what I can.

The washing of the hands is a rabbinical ruling that predates Yeshua, but still a rabbinical ruling. So whether one observes it depends on what Halacha one is following. So for example, if you follow Orthodox halacha, you wash your hands before a bread meal. If you follow UMJC's standards of observance,you don't. I forget what Conservative Judaism's halacha demands, but the same would go there.

In Christianity, we aren't looking to move to the Promised Land. We are looking for eternal life. And we receive that BY GRACE which is FREE AND UNDESERVED. IOW we aren't REQUIRED by the New Covenant, IMHO, to obey the 613 FOR SALVATION--either Gentile or Jew--although it is a beautiful way to show our love for Hashem (I highly recommend it).

Personally, I follow the halacha that says to wash my hands -- although some of Jesus' disciples did not, Jesus did and so did the rest of his disciples. My church, knowing that I'm a Jew, fully supports me in doing this, although the vast majority in my church don't.

There are universal laws that are a part of "Love God and love your neighbor." These are different. They are absolutely required of Christians (including Messianics). Embezzling would be a violation. As would adultery or murder. And it means avoiding sins of ommision -- not doing what is right. That's where Jesus taught that we are required to do unto the least of these--good works.

It's not that good works earns us grace -- GRACE IS FREE AND UNDESERVED. But we respond to grace with obedience, faith, and good works, or we are basically rejecting the grace that God is offering us.

 

[Meowzltov]

Maybe I need back up to my most fundamental question. "What do I do to be saved?" And related, what does salvation mean?

There is no one verse that says it all. You have to cut and paste a whole bunch of verses together and try to figure out what relationship the parts have to do with each other. Here is the best I can figure.

God calls us by his grace. Grace always comes first. IT IS FREE AND UNDESERVED. There is only grace and forgiveness available because of Christ's redemption and atonement. But though God offers this gift, we must respond and accept it. So faith and works are only possible because of that grace, but they still involve our free will. We can refuse that gift. Or accept it. Our response must be a working faith. There is no "alone." Faith alone is dead. Works alone are futile. Only a working faith is authentic.

Here's the conglomerate: We know for example that when Yeshua was asked how one obtains eternal life, his answer was to keep the commandments. Yeshua also told the story of the sheep and the goats, where their eternal life depended on their actions towards others. But Yeshua also said to believe and be baptized for example. John 3:16 talks about belief being the key. Peter, who was taught by Yeshua, said to repent and be baptized. Paul said to have faith/belief/profess/confess. James reminded us of the importance of works and cautioned us against the teaching of faith alone.

When we think of salvation, we think of three things.

1. The most obvious is forgiveness of sins so that we can have eternal life.
2. The second is what we call imputed righteousness. This means that although we still sin, God looks upon us and sees holiness. Think of a pile of cow manure, and Yeshua's righteousness is the snow that falls and covers us, so that when the Father looks down from heaven, all he sees is pure white.
3. The third is transformation and renewal, being made into the mind of Messiah, being perfected. Usually this is referred to as sanctification. We work on this our whole lives, and some say beyond. It's not a paint job on a dirty wall; it's a whole new wall. This is not a covering of the cow manure with snow, this is turning the cow manure into snow.

 

[Meowzltov]

Talking about salvation from the deamons within my own mind

This is part of sanctification. I know what you mean.

 

[Monna]

You seem to be saying the law and ritual are one and the same.

I'm sorry, Gadar, for that confusion. I did not intend to imply that the law and ritual are the same. However, do you not agree that they are closely related? And in the OP there is reference to "ritual commandments." Many of the rituals described in the Pentateuch begin with "thou shalt..." or use imperative verb forms (at least in the English). And many are given specifically to address the restoration of the relationship with God that has been broken by disobeying the law; others specify how to apply, for example, the first of the "ten commandments" in terms of rituals for worship. There are other rituals of course.

 

[Elihoenai]

Ritual

Rites of passage

Main articles: Rites of passage and Initiation

A rite of passage is a ritual event that marks a person's transition from one status to another, including birth, coming-of-age, marriage, death as well as initiation into groups not tied to a formal stage of life such as a fraternity. Arnold van Gennep stated that rites of passage are marked by three stages: separation, transition and incorporation.[22] In the first stage, the initiates are separated from their old identities through physical and symbolic means. In the transition phase, they are "betwixt and between." Victor Turner argued that this stage is marked by liminality, a condition of ambiguity or disorientation in which initiates have been stripped of their old identities, but have not yet acquired their new one. Turner states "The attributes of liminality or of liminal personae ("threshold people") are necessarily ambiguous."[23] In this stage of liminality or "anti-structure" (see below) the initiates role ambiguity creates a sense of communitas or emotional bond of community between them. This stage may be marked by ritual ordeals or ritual training. In the final stage of incorporation, the initiates are symbolically confirmed in their new identity and community.[24]

Ritual - Wikipedia

 

[Elihoenai]

Jesus = Jehoshua = Yeshua = Jehovah/Yahweh is Salvation

Matthew 1:21 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

21 and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.'

 

[Steve Petersen]

Virtually every commandment in the OT that God calls 'eternal' or 'throughout your generations' are commandments having to do with the Temple, priesthood, and sacrifices.

Look at the excruciating details he gave about every element of these things.

Aaron's two sons were killed by God for deviating from the ritual God gave for the incense.

Yeah, God hates ritual.

 

[MysticFred82]

Yeah, God hates ritual.

Hahaha. I'm tempted next time people are sharing favorite cheesy bible versus say mine is like Exodus 29.
That's why I have such a bone to pick with the small group evangelical megachurch types. They are good people and have geninuine faith and that flavor of religion helps a lot of people. But to me that type of Christianity is empty and it often pretend to speak for all Christians. I guess I shouldn't let myself get worked up about it though, not sure where it came from!

 

[visionary]

I'm sorry, Gadar, for that confusion. I did not intend to imply that the law and ritual are the same. However, do you not agree that they are closely related? And in the OP there is reference to "ritual commandments." Many of the rituals described in the Pentateuch begin with "thou shalt..." or use imperative verb forms (at least in the English). And many are given specifically to address the restoration of the relationship with God that has been broken by disobeying the law; others specify how to apply, for example, the first of the "ten commandments" in terms of rituals for worship. There are other rituals of course.

What ritual do you see in the ten.. and I am not talking about the ritualistic ways some keep them. I am speaking about the ten in and of themselves

 

[Monna]

What ritual do you see in the ten.

I don't. And I don't think I said that either. In fact, my reply was to indicate that I did not mean to imply in the earlier posting that "the law and ritual are the same."

 

[AbbaLove]

Aaron's two sons were killed by God for deviating from the ritual God gave for the incense.

Yeah, God hates ritual.

What ritual do you see in the ten.. and I am not talking about the ritualistic ways some keep them. I am speaking about the ten in and of themselves

Assume you may be thinking of the 4th Commandment as more of an example of a God ordained "Ritual". Ritual commands as ordained by God were of Paramount Importance to the well-being of Israel. Then with the so-called advancement of Rabbinic Judaism and Christendom the word "ritual" took on new meaning as suspect (being man made) without certain Biblical proof.

When Steve says, "Yeah, God hates ritual" isn't he referring to additional man made religious add-on "rituals" ... whether they be found within Christendom or Rabbinic Judaism?