Boundaries and hospitality

[FireDragon76]

I've never worked in a building where I couldn't have done it. Offices with glass panels on the doors (now standard for us; we went through a phase some years ago where all our doors had glass panels set into them) are a big help.

It's just part of the new reality. Post abuse crisis, nobody is willing to take chances.

I used to attend an Episcopal church, one of those old neo-gothic cathedrals with tile floors and concrete walls and voices would carry a great deal.

 

[Paidiske]

Well, where I am now voices carry shockingly in the church itself. So I wouldn't necessarily do that in that part of the building. But there are other options. Heck, if the weather's nice we could sit outside, even.

 

[FireDragon76]

Maybe this is manifestation of an extreme reaction to sexual abuse and impropriety, one that focuses on changing just one aspect of our culture through rules and procedures, while ignoring other aspects, and exacting a substantial cost on our relationships?

 

[FireDragon76]

I think common sense should apply here rather than a hard rule that may not work for every occasion, but I hesitate to say it because it often seems so few people have common sense, so I don't know! I do agree the rule should be strict for meeting with minors, but for adults, it just doesn't seem workable. Even if you are strict about not being alone with opposite sex, what about meeting with people who are homosexual or bisexual, or transgender? Even straight people of the same gender could make a claim of sexual abuse.

I actually don't think this plays out like that in reality. Gays actually seem to have better skills negotiating this than heterosexuals, they sort of have to learn how to do this, being a sexual minority.

 

[Paidiske]

Maybe this is manifestation of an extreme reaction to sexual abuse and impropriety, one that focuses on changing just one aspect of our culture through rules and procedures, while ignoring other aspects, and exacting a substantial cost on our relationships?

Yes, probably, to all of the above.

I think extreme reactions are understandable, considering. But the cost is also very real.

 

[bekkilyn]

I actually don't think this plays out like that in reality. Gays actually seem to have better skills negotiating this than heterosexuals, they sort of have to learn how to do this, being a sexual minority.

While this may be true, it's not always about what actually happens, but about perception of what may happen or what may be happening. With the current church scandal going on, what are people now thinking about sending their boys and young men to an older man in the church for counseling? While previously people may have though same gender counseling was "safe" they are coming to realize that's not necessarily the case. The Billy Graham rule doesn't account for this sort of thing as only one example.

 

[Dave-W]

it's not always about what actually happens, but about perception of what may happen or what may be happening.

Very true. Public opinion is not necessarily swayed by facts, but perception can have a powerful impact.

 

[Jon Osterman]

I work in a university, so have to meet with students frequently, often on my own. However, I am careful never to close the door, so that we can always be seen from outside, even if there is no-one else around.

I am not like this with female colleagues, and would even occasionally have dinner with a female colleague on our own if at a conference away from home. I would only do that with someone I knew very well though.

And although I have never had any accusations of acting inappropriately, I have had multiple instances of other people acting inappropriately towards me. This has included both students and work colleagues, both male and female. I am physically quite fit so I was never in fear for my safety, but I was made to feel very uncomfortable. As is normal for men in such circumstances, I did nothing about it once I removed myself from the situation.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

As a Teacher, I would often meet with a Student in the Library where other people, adults were present. When that was not possible, I would stream the meeting to the Office Computers. Today, a Camera in the Elevator will clear one of false charges. Yes, the Student was made aware of the Camera that the Principal could see everything. As a general rule, my door was always open. The times I had to record the meeting, The Student and myself would walk the tape to the office together to avoid any claims of tampering. I never heard this rule before, but recording the meeting removes any false claims. One can leave a copy under the Administrators' Door. Also, one could simply meet people in public areas of the Nursing Home.

 

[Paidiske]

It would be utterly inappropriate to record pastoral conversations.

 

[Dave-W]

It would be utterly inappropriate to record pastoral conversations.

It is not if everyone involved is aware of the recording.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes, it still is. A recording creates the possibility of a breach of confidentiality, or of the recording being misused in some way. It can't be safely entrusted to a third party. If the recording remains the property of the person doing the caring, it deepens the power imbalance enormously, and if it remains the property of the one being cared for, it runs the risk that words said at a particular moment in time are later taken out of context or misunderstood.

I would not record pastoral conversations I have, nor would I be willing to have one where I was being cared for recorded.

(I do, sometimes, make notes after a pastoral conversation. But I don't really think that's the same thing, at all).

 

[Dave-W]

Yes, it still is. A recording creates the possibility of a breach of confidentiality, or of the recording being misused in some way.

I am the care-taker of one copy of a recording from about 3 years ago between a former member of the home group I led (H) and the elders and pastor/rabbi of the congregation. She was called before the board to answer for her "sins" and for leaving the congregation.

So as to not have to face them all alone she asked if my wife and I could be there for moral support. That request was denied. She asked if the rabbi and his wife from our current congregation could sit in. They allowed that and also that the meeting be recorded. So there were 2 recordings made, one by H (which I now possess) and one by the elders.

The meeting went very poorly. I have not listened to the 2+hours, nor do I intend to. But since appeals to the national or international boards of the pastoral decisions and actions that led to our leaving have been discussed, the recording may become evidence at some point.

 

[Paidiske]

A disciplinary conversation is not quite the same thing as a pastoral conversation. I can understand the desire to record a disciplinary conversation, although I still would wonder whether a written and co-signed summary might be better than what you have.

 

[Dave-W]

although I still would wonder whether a written and co-signed summary might be better than what you have.

A "statement" would not include what I was told happened there by those who entrusted me with the recording. Like one of the elders getting mad and walking out about 5 minutes into the session and having to be coaxed back into the meeting by the other board members; only for being asked a question.

BTW - my wife and I were called before the same board a week or 2 later. I did not record the session, and I let the whole lot of them have it with both barrels over how they treated H. Not just in that meeting but the months leading up to her and our leaving that congregation.

Those meetings were not supposed to be "disciplinary," but for reconciliation. That did not happen.

 

[Paidiske]

Out of curiosity, Dave, if something happened to you and your wife tomorrow... (say you died in a car accident or something awful)... what would happen to that recording?

 

[Dave-W]

Out of curiosity, Dave, if something happened to you and your wife tomorrow... (say you died in a car accident or something awful)... what would happen to that recording?

Good question. It is on the hard drive on my laptop. Our youngest daughter (very close friend with H) would probably be the one to decide how stuff like that was dealt with. I believe H told her I have the recording.

ETA: the elder board member who was starting the appeals process has since moved away to another congregation outside of that particular brotherhood of congregations. I should have a talk with H, with that former elder, and with the head of the US board (friend of mine) and perhaps, if it is no longer relevant to any actions, delete it.

Thanks for bringing that up. I had not given that a thought.

 

[Paidiske]

If it were my record, I wouldn't be happy with that. But hey, I guess it's not my record.

Still, I think you can see why that would be inappropriate in most situations?