Bottom line: Can a Christian believe in evolution and still be saved?

[Neogaia777]

I didn't say I "feel like" I'm surrounded by truth -- I am, whether I feel it or not.



Well, for starters, how good's your memory? Ever stop to wonder why it's not perfect?

We are bombarded by sensory input every moment of every day -- our brain, by necessity, filters out 99.999% of it as unimportant, and we never remember it... unless we make a conscious effort.

That's just an example.

As to the first, but you don't think everything around you is truth/Truth, or is the Truth, right...?

Especially what everyone says, right...?

So aren't you just trying to sort all that out just like the rest of us, etc...?

And as to the second, my memory became pretty good or a whole lot better when I stopped telling lies and/or also stopped lying to myself, etc, but it does not remember absolutely everything on command though, but sometimes those memories have to be recollected or triggered by something else or another thing, etc, but my recollection of past events and/or past happenings in my own life now, is pretty accurate now, and tells the truth/Truth now, etc...

And, no, we do not process everything that comes in through our senses most of the time, etc, but I still think we can know the Truth, etc...

But our conscious memory/focus is "selective" though...

And what causes that can be debated, etc...

And also why it is that it seems to be different for every single person, can also be debated as well, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

As to the first, but you don't think everything around you is truth/Truth, or is the Truth, right...?

Especially what everyone says, right...?

So aren't you just trying to sort all that out just like the rest of us, etc...?

And as to the second, my memory became pretty good or a whole lot better when I stopped telling lies and/or also stopped lying to myself, etc, but it does not remember absolutely everything on command though, but sometimes those memories have to be recollected or triggered by something else or another thing, etc, but my recollection of past events and/or past happenings in my own life now, is pretty accurate now, and tells the truth/Truth now, etc...

And, no, we do not process everything that comes in through our senses most of the time, etc, but I still think we can know the Truth, etc...

But our conscious memory/focus is "selective" though...

And what causes that can be debated, etc...

And also why it is that it seems to be different for every single person, can also be debated as well, etc...

God Bless!

Some say that when you are under the control of God the Holy Spirit, or when you are working cooperatively with God the Holy Spirit, that these things can be directed and/or controlled/manipulated/selected, etc, by Him for you, and for whatever you might need the most in the moment, etc...

To focus on and/or remember or recall, etc, in the moment, etc...

And do so honestly, etc...

And that you can walk with Him in and through life this way, etc...

And even hear His voice, etc...

And that He can lead you into all Truth this way, etc...

God Bless!

 

[SkyWriting]

Which fits into what I have observed for years -- Creationism, like all other stripes of fundamentalism, is not for anything so much as it is against a (real or imagined) enemy.

I've said it before -- lock a thousand fundamentalists in a room, and soon enough there will only be one left... And he'll start throwing punches at the mirror.

But if you go to Creation Rallies and meetings, you'd discover you are mistaken.

 

[disciple Clint]

Depends if one believes humans are made in the image of God. This is what separates us from animals and provides a vessel for His Holy Spirit. Evolution does not take this into consideration.

I think you are into two question here. It is possible to consider Genesis allegory and still believe that humans are made in the image of God.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Let's not beat around the bush here. Is evolution a salvation issue?
Is it possible to accept Genesis as allegorical and still be saved by the Grace of Christ?

Because it seems to me that if the answer is yes, debating it is pointless for creationists, and if the answer is no, debating it is pointless with creationists.

I'm just curious regarding what people really think coming into these discussions...

I'm firmly in the Creationist camp. However, no one will go to hell because they believe in evolution. It's belief in Lord Jesus that saves people. I do get into discussions with some. One person came trumpeting his evolutionary belief as if it made him some kind of superior being. I had a few words to him/her. I will also engage with atheists, not to convince them, but for the sake of some who may not be sure of their ground. Evolution reduces God to the role of spectator and poses many questions as to how people can be morally responsible for their actions.

 

[Petros2015]

Evolution reduces God to the role of spectator and poses many questions as to how people can be morally responsible for their actions.

Eh, I prefer "Conductor". The same (or similar) questions of moral responsibility remain for Creationism, I would imagine. I'm actually a 6-day Relativistic Creationist - 6-days from God's point of view outside an expanding creation. Time scales influenced and changing due speed and gravity, which relativity does. To me, Genesis isn't allegory so much as it is synopsis. Otherwise the first chapter of the bible would have taken a few 100 pages and a lecture from a PhD and nobody would have gotten to the second one until it made sense.

Gerald Schroeder - Wikipedia

 

[d taylor]

I was told there was a "literal fall." Was it literally metaphorical?

The fall was that the Man and Woman God created, lost their perfect spiritual life.
from got questions
Which means that he possessed an everlasting spirit, such as God has. He was designed to be like God, fellowship with God, reason like God, and enjoy God forever. So God placed Adam in a garden designed specifically for him. In these perfect surroundings, God walked and talked with the man, enjoying the creation He had made and Adam’s pleasure in it.

So when Adam ate of the fruit he fell from this position of being in perfect fellowship with God. That included being banished from the garden and experiencing spiritual death and eventual physical death.

So basically They fell from their perfect relationship and environment with God. To having a sin infected relationship and environment now with God.

 

[Astrid]

Depends if one believes humans are made in the image of God. This is what separates us from animals and provides a vessel for His Holy Spirit. Evolution does not take this into consideration.

Of course not. Its as irrelevant to science as it is to auto mechanics

 

[Astrid]

Even if something evolves, was it not first created? Also consider there was no sun and moon until the fourth day, hence God's day is not our day.

Created?
Why assume something greater than the universe somehow
exists to "create" the universe? There is zero evidence this is so.

 

[Astrid]

The literal Fall of the human proto-parents is intrinsic to Salvation.
I know of no evolutionary model that accommodates that.

Again, as irrelevant to science as it is to auto mechanics.

 

[Astrid]

It's intrinsic to Death in some models. Lions were herbivores before the Fall. I know of no fossil record that accommodates that.

The fossil record certainly contradicts that.
What kind of herbs do you suppose whales
would eat?

 

[TLK Valentine]

As to the first, but you don't think everything around you is truth/Truth, or is the Truth, right...?

Especially what everyone says, right...?

Truth is not what is said... Truth is what is.

Words are not "Truth." Words are the humble tools we use to try to express Truth... Or obfuscate it. Words are powerful tools, but even they have their limits, so if you're looking for Truth in words, you're going to miss something.

So aren't you just trying to sort all that out just like the rest of us, etc...?

I'm not convinced that "the rest of us" are trying to sort it out... I think some others have convinced themselves they already have, and are trying to convince the rest of us.

And as to the second, my memory became pretty good or a whole lot better when I stopped telling lies and/or also stopped lying to myself, etc, but it does not remember absolutely everything on command though, but sometimes those memories have to be recollected or triggered by something else or another thing, etc, but my recollection of past events and/or past happenings in my own life now, is pretty accurate now, and tells the truth/Truth now, etc...

Mark Twain said that if you always tell the truth, you won't have to remember anything. As for lying to yourself, would you know if you were?

And, no, we do not process everything that comes in through our senses most of the time, etc, but I still think we can know the Truth, etc...

Would we? The Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth? All at once?

I'm not so certain.

But our conscious memory/focus is "selective" though...

And what causes that can be debated, etc...

And also why it is that it seems to be different for every single person, can also be debated as well, etc...

God Bless!

Exactly -- no two minds filter the Truth is precisely the same way...

 

[TLK Valentine]

But if you go to Creation Rallies and meetings, you'd discover you are mistaken.

They're not locked in. They're fine as long as they have the big, bad "Godless evolutionists" to rail against.

if they didn't have a common enemy, they'd make one. If they can't make one, they'll become one.

 

[Sabertooth]

Again, as irrelevant to science as it is to auto mechanics.

But the question in the OP is...

Is evolution a salvation issue?

So my response is relevant here.

 

[Sabertooth]

Lions were herbivores before the Fall. I know of no fossil record that accommodates that.

Pandas are herbivores, now, but still have carnivorous teeth.

More about pandas...

 

[TLK Valentine]

The fall was that the Man and Woman God created, lost their perfect spiritual life.

A metaphorical fall, then... But caused when literally a naked woman took bad advice from a talking reptile, right?

And while this perfection was indeed "lost," we could just as accurately say it was taken from them as punishment, correct?

from got questions
Which means that he possessed an everlasting spirit, such as God has. He was designed to be like God, fellowship with God, reason like God, and enjoy God forever. So God placed Adam in a garden designed specifically for him. In these perfect surroundings, God walked and talked with the man, enjoying the creation He had made and Adam’s pleasure in it.

Sounds like a zoo animal to me... and a gilded cage is still a cage. But that's just my opinion.

So when Adam ate of the fruit he fell from this position of being in perfect fellowship with God. That included being banished from the garden and experiencing spiritual death and eventual physical death.

When Adam ate the fruit? How soon we forget poor Eve...

"Fell," or were pushed?

So basically They fell from their perfect relationship and environment with God. To having a sin infected relationship and environment now with God.

Perfect relationship for God, perhaps... as long as His creation remains ignorant and obedient... Anyone can maintain a perfect relationship under those circumstances.

Perfect environment? One tree smack in the middle of it which ruins everything, and God doesn't think to maybe put up a fence?

And let us not forget that serpents (including this Serpent) was part of His environment as well... Seems His creation was primed to self-destruct from the get-go.

 

[TLK Valentine]

But the question in the OP is...

So my response is relevant here.

Agreed. The issue is not the science of evolution; as far as I'm concerned, that issue has long been settled. I'm asking about to how many people it poses an insurmountable obstacle to personal theology.

 

[Sabertooth]

Agreed. The issue is not the science of evolution; as far as I'm concerned, that issue has long been settled. I'm asking about to how many people it poses an insurmountable obstacle to personal theology.

Scientific theories of contemporary, repeatable phenomena are entirely separable from theories of evolution.
One can embrace the former independently of the latter.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Scientific theories of contemporary, repeatable phenomena are entirely separable from theories of evolution.
One can embrace the former independently of the latter.

And many do. But as I said, as far as I'm concerned, the science of evolution is settled.

Not many people around here who doubt evolution do so on its scientific merits... and many of those who do expose their lack of scientific knowledge within their first few posts. The focus here is the theology.

 

[Sabertooth]

The focus here is the theology.

The focus of both camps is theology or, at least, cosmology.