Born again...

[NBB]

That is not scriptural. Where in the Bible do you find this doctrine? It says in my Bible that believers are given the Holy Spirit; it doesn't say "loaned".

We are talking about being filled, which we need to take care of this in us, or we may loose it.
And not every detail is in the bible, some things you learn by experiencing things with God.

 

[pescador]

Gifts can be lost. And if you want to use semantics, it doesn’t say the Holy Spirit is sentenced to live in a person no matter how they live.

"Sentenced"? What are you talking about? Do you think that God (the Father) is playing some sort of game? That if you're not good, He'll take back his gift?

Perhaps you need to read Romans 11 again, where it says that "As far as the gospel is concerned, they [Israel] are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable."

 

[pescador]

We are talking about being filled, which we need to take care of this in us, or we may loose it.
And not every detail is in the bible, some things you learn by experiencing things with God.

Have you lost the Holy Spirit? Do you have some experience that is outside what God's Word says? Peter wrote about that, "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."

So, you're in God's family, His child, until one day He decides that you're not His child any more? You and Dorothy Mae must be very scared that God will throw you out for being bad. Is your faith really that weak?? Here is what the Bible says about it, "Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” So, do you believe Jesus, the Son of God, or do you not??

 

[NBB]

Have you lost the Holy Spirit? Do you have some experience that is outside what God's Word says? Peter wrote about that, "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."

So, you're in God's family, His child, until one day He decides that you're not His child any more? You and Dorothy Mae must be very scared that God will throw you out for being bad. Is your faith really that weak?? Here is what the Bible says about it, "Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” So, do you believe Jesus, the Son of God, or do you not??

Its because we are talking about being filled, that this is the person of the Holy spirit living with you in a greater way, and manifesting himself in you and he is holy, and very sensitive, and you can't go on sinning or you may quench the spirit, this is in the bible, quenching is making it 'smaller' making it 'less'.

Also if you happen to quench the spirit, its not an automatic way to hell, you can just ask for forgiveness, leave the sins that are troubling you and be filled again after, if God would sent to hell every christians that had problems with sin, well, that would be a death sentence for too many child of God i guess.

 

[pescador]

Its because we are talking about being filled, that this is the person of the Holy spirit living with you in a greater way, and manifesting himself in you and he is holy, and very sensitive, and you can't go on sinning or you may quench the spirit, this is in the bible, quenching is making it 'smaller' making it 'less'.

Also if you happen to quench the spirit, its not an automatic way to hell, you can just ask for forgiveness, leave the sins that are troubling you and be filled again after, if God would sent to hell every christians that had problems with sin, well, that would be a death sentence for too many child of God i guess.

Quenching by you doesn't mean revocation by God!

 

[NBB]

Quenching by you doesn't mean revocation by God!

But we are talking about being filled, The holy spirit can't stay filling you if you sin often or with grevious sins, its just the way it is, like David, he prayed 'don't take from me your Spirit' after he sinned.

Now if you think everyone gets filled at conversion, well, i can tell a lot of christians are oblivious to this kind of potential problems, and the blessings too, because they don't have this 'filling' at all. Its not a competition or being superior to anyone of course, but every christian should seek being filled, then you could start thinking about taking care of the 'dove' like God deserves.

I don't need to confess anything but i actually yes had some troubles but i'm trying to recover, but better to have troubles with being filled, and not just ignore the whole thing like a lot of christians do.

 

[pescador]

But we are talking about being filled, The holy spirit can't stay filling you if you sin often or with grevious sins, its just the way it is, like David, he prayed 'don't take from me your Spirit' after he sinned.

Now if you think everyone gets filled at conversion, well, i can tell a lot of christians are oblivious to this kind of potential problems, and the blessings too, because they don't have this 'filling' at all. Its not a competition or being superior to anyone of course, but every christian should seek being filled, then you could start thinking about taking care of the 'dove' like God deserves.

I don't need to confess anything but i actually yes had some troubles but i'm trying to recover, but better to have troubles with being filled, and not just ignore the whole thing like a lot of christians do.

The Holy Spirit is a free gift from the Lord to Christians (capitalized). It's not a partial gift or a joke.

 

[NBB]

The Holy Spirit is a free gift from the Lord to Christians (capitalized). It's not a partial gift or a joke.

Christians have the Holy spirit in them, what i talk about is what in the bible, is being filled with the Holy spirit.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

"Sentenced"? What are you talking about? Do you think that God (the Father) is playing some sort of game? That if you're not good, He'll take back his gift?

He told us not to quench the Holy Spirit. He doesn’t take it back, we drive it out or lose it. A gift truly given is always in the hands of the receiver. No one can give a gift and still keep it. If he gives a gift, it’s up to us to not lose it (or quench it, to use biblical language.)

Perhaps you need to read Romans 11 again, where it says that "As far as the gospel is concerned, they [Israel] are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable."

Yet if you leave or throw away what is in YOUR HANDS, it is gone. Perhaps you need to read the words of Jesus what he says the kingdom of God will be (now has been) TAKEN AWAY FROM THE JEWS and given elsewhere. God took away his kingdom from them. The word “gift” won’t bind God when it comes to him giving Himself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Christians have the Holy spirit in them, what i talk about is what in the bible, is being filled with the Holy spirit.

Correct. There are those whose walk has more of the Holy Spirit than others for just reasons.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Quenching by you doesn't mean revocation by God!

Quenching means out. Gone. Not burning.

I suspect many Christians don’t know what it is to be filled with the HS but take that as a legal obligation on God’s part and use the words of the Bible, the ones they like that is, to demand any matterGod gave remain because of those words alone. “It says “gift” God so you can’t leave me no matter what I do to others. You’re stuck inside me. “

They cannot discern when he’s there and so cannot discern when He’s gone. There’s no real difference. I know the difference.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Have you lost the Holy Spirit? Do you have some experience that is outside what God's Word says? Peter wrote about that, "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."

We are alert to the enemy as one way he devours is by assuring believers the words of truth can be used to allow evil to be done without cost. “Behave as you want cause the Spirit is a gift that God can never ever take away” for example. What is born can’t be “unborn” is another whereas what is born can actually die (which is the proper word instead of “unborn.”) The enemy plays with words like a lawyer to allow evil to be done.

So, you're in God's family, His child, until one day He decides that you're not His child any more?

Until you decide to leave the family.

You and Dorothy Mae must be very scared that God will throw you out for being bad. Is your faith really that weak??

Well, I could ask if your commitment is so weak that you need guarantees you’ll go to heaven no matter how you behave. But as for me, when Jesus warns to take care no one deceive me, I do. But I’m not in the least afraid. I’m simply committed and not looking at obliging God but not myself.

Here is what the Bible says about it, "Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Do you notice that the one who COMES will not be refused? Doesn’t promise the one who goes will he keep back.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” So, do you believe Jesus, the Son of God, or do you not??

Do you equally do his will and not your own? Do you look to, that is follow and obey? You have your part in looking and coming. It isn’t a one time in the past event.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The Holy Spirit is a free gift from the Lord to Christians (capitalized). It's not a partial gift or a joke.

And like any other gift, you can lose it, neglect it or generally end up without it through your own deeds.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ok at this point I have confirmed that at the heart of our journey into faith there is serious disagreement about how things are 'meant' to happen.

I notice the Church Fathers at Nicea were silent about this matter as well.

The most obvious reason is that God moves in lives in a variety of ways, so the acid test of if one is truely in 'The Way' is fruit.

Paul's conversion is a good example, and when he presented his ministry to the disciples in Jerusalem it was the fruit of his ministry that won the day not his theology. Peter warned that his theology was hard to understand.

Pretty good although Peter wrote that Paul’s letters were hard to understand decades later.

The scripture is silent on the baptism of the disciples apart from Paul, and some claim this was a Baptism in the Spirit...

The other reason for disagreement is that one often aligns ones theology with Scripture and personal experience, and/or the writings of the Church Fathers.

I rarely find experience to be a dividing point. Generally people just blindly accept whatever church they are in initially. Looking at the actual scripture for understanding is as rare as hen’s teeth. Their favorite pastor pulls out isolates verses and they go and do likewise. The wrong theologies are generally those that comfort a man in his sin, require nothing of him (free) and promise Heaven no matter what (a few varieties of this are available.)

I think also, that ones theology is shaped by what is going on at the time - if we were in medieval times we would have a different take on how the holy Spirit moves in lives than if we were converted during the Welsh revival.

I was alive in the faith during the Jesus movement of the 70's and witnessed extraordinary miracles and conversions so my take is a little different.

Folks were presenting with radically transformed lives way before they were baptised so there was no reason to think they were not born again.

Folks who had been walking with Jesus for years were suddenly spiritually gifted as at Pentecost. We had no reason to believe they had not previously been born again.

The ordained leaders had to swallow their preconceived ideas and allow the 'move' to happen. They couldn't argue with the stream of new converts, addicts instantly healed, family feuds reconciled, and swelling congregations with a deep love for Jesus.

I am not advocating experience above scripture but it is how we use scripture that is the problem. Never forget the best bible scholars of the day did not recognise God when He arrived and had Him hideously murdered.

I would put it as there are those who are blessed to be in a community more committed to Him, more obedient and therefore see more of the Spirit than others.

I was a part of the Jesus people movement too. Birthed a generation of Christians who felt called to serve and not merely called to “experience His presence” all the time. As a result we saw more of Him.

 

[artie annie]

"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

It is important to quote the verse accurately.

I did and it says what I said it says not what you said it says. And the word perfect verse you quoted said what I said it says, not what you said it says.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I did and it says what I said it says not what you said it says. And the word perfect verse you quoted said what I said it says, not what you said it says.

Other verses also say what they say.

 

[artie annie]

"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

It is important to quote the verse accurately.

So where does it say about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? Sorry to be pedantic but we must quote the verse accurately.

 

[artie annie]

Other verses also say what they say.

Who are " they" and we are not talking about other verses. At least I thought we weren't.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So where does it say about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ? Sorry to be pedantic but we must quote the verse accurately.

How is it meaningful to repent “in the name of Jesus” if one doesn’t believe Jesus is anyone in particular or the son of God?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Who are " they" and we are not talking about other verses. At least I thought we weren't.

Well, one must take all of what is written on a matter to know what the intended communication is.