Born again...

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

We see references to being 'born again' only twice in the New Testament.

Once when Jesus talks to Nicodemus, and once mentioned by Peter.

Now in contemporary protestant Christianity this is a central pillar of theology, yet it gets little mention in the NT - not even one mention in the writings of Paul.

Strangely Nicodemus is rebuked by Jesus for not knowing about it, yet it is not directly referenced in the O.T.

Now some denominational theologies insist that being 'born again' simply means being Baptised. They insist that the journey with Jesus starts at baptism.

Yet Jesus said that unless one is born 'of water and of the Spirit' one will not enter the Kingdom of God...

Some believe this is a reference to natural birth then spiritual birth. (we are all naturally born in a bag of water)

Some say this being 'born again' or being 'born from above' is the beginning of the journey, and baptism follows.

Others believe that until we are baptised we are headed for hell.

Do we dare reference what Jesus is doing in lives?

Case in point - we had an intern from Germany who goes on a holiday here and stays at a backpackers for the night. He picks up a book by Nicky Gumble and is fascinated by the message. At the end of the book is a list of steps to becoming a 'born again' Christian. Being a good German he takes the steps very seriously and follows then to the letter.
Bingo he is deeply convicted and repentant and filled with the Spirit to the degree that his life is permanently transformed - he is now a Pastor.

Are we to believe He would not have been saved until he was Baptised some months later?

You thoughts on this appreciated.

 

[Paul James]

Hi there,

We see references to being 'born again' only twice in the New Testament.

Once when Jesus talks to Nicodemus, and once mentioned by Peter.

Now in contemporary protestant Christianity this is a central pillar of theology, yet it gets little mention in the NT - not even one mention in the writings of Paul.

Strangely Nicodemus is rebuked by Jesus for not knowing about it, yet it is not directly referenced in the O.T.

Now some denominational theologies insist that being 'born again' simply means being Baptised. They insist that the journey with Jesus starts at baptism.

Yet Jesus said that unless one is born 'of water and of the Spirit' one will not enter the Kingdom of God...

Some believe this is a reference to natural birth then spiritual birth. (we are all naturally born in a bag of water)

Some say this being 'born again' or being 'born from above' is the beginning of the journey, and baptism follows.

Others believe that until we are baptised we are headed for hell.

Do we dare reference what Jesus is doing in lives?

Case in point - we had an intern from Germany who goes on a holiday here and stays at a backpackers for the night. He picks up a book by Nicky Gumble and is fascinated by the message. At the end of the book is a list of steps to becoming a 'born again' Christian. Being a good German he takes the steps very seriously and follows then to the letter.
Bingo he is deeply convicted and repentant and filled with the Spirit to the degree that his life is permanently transformed - he is now a Pastor.

Are we to believe He would not have been saved until he was Baptised some months later?

You thoughts on this appreciated.

The Puritans believed that after a person has made a profession of Christianity, he must earnestly seek God to become genuinely converted to Christ through a complete transformation of his heart. Reference: Joseph Alleine: "An Alarm To The Unconverted".

What this shows is that just saying a short prayer doesn't convert a person to Christ. And this is probably why 95% of new decisions for Christ don't generally last the first year.

 

[Carl Emerson]

How then does this account for the transformed life of my friend - does that encounter with God not count?

 

[Paul James]

How then does this account for the transformed life of my friend - does that encounter with God not count?

It appears that he sought God with all his heart and the Lord saw it and performed the miracle of transformation in him. It doesn't always have to take eight years as it did with John Bunyan. Some people's spiritual "skulls" are thicker than others.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are you comfortable to say he was 'born again' given the transformation that has gripped his life even to this day?

Was he headed for hell until he was baptised?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

First of all, anyone can get baptised by water, that doesn't mean anything unless you truly believe what baptism is.

To be born in spirit is a transformation of individual's character, but this is not something we can do, as we are completely hopeless, only God can do it.

The baptism of water is as I understand it the baptism of repentance but to repent is not enough. You must be born is spirit, you must be fully transformed. We are all born in sin and thus are dead, we are like walking corps, so you must be born again, but there's absolutely nothing you can do about this. Only the Spirit can do this. Even the fact that you are a sinner and you belong to hell and don't deserve God must be revealed to you through the Spirit. To be born in Spirit is to receive the Holy Spirit so it can reveal to you have sin made us blind, how sin kept us from God, it reveals you that you are with no power, that you absolutely depend on God in every single aspect of your life, but these are the works of the Spirit.

 

[Paul James]

Are you comfortable to say he was 'born again' given the transformation that has gripped his life even to this day?

Was he headed for hell until he was baptised?

I don't believe that baptism is a prerequisite for salvation. Peter said to the crowd that if they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, they shall receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This suggests that when a person genuinely believes in their hearts, they receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit and that this causes the transformation. Believer's baptism in water comes after as a public declaration of the person's commitment to Christ.

 

[artie annie]

Hi there,

We see references to being 'born again' only twice in the New Testament.

Once when Jesus talks to Nicodemus, and once mentioned by Peter.

Now in contemporary protestant Christianity this is a central pillar of theology, yet it gets little mention in the NT - not even one mention in the writings of Paul.

Strangely Nicodemus is rebuked by Jesus for not knowing about it, yet it is not directly referenced in the O.T.

Now some denominational theologies insist that being 'born again' simply means being Baptised. They insist that the journey with Jesus starts at baptism.

Yet Jesus said that unless one is born 'of water and of the Spirit' one will not enter the Kingdom of God...

Some believe this is a reference to natural birth then spiritual birth. (we are all naturally born in a bag of water)

Some say this being 'born again' or being 'born from above' is the beginning of the journey, and baptism follows.

Others believe that until we are baptised we are headed for hell.

Do we dare reference what Jesus is doing in lives?

Case in point - we had an intern from Germany who goes on a holiday here and stays at a backpackers for the night. He picks up a book by Nicky Gumble and is fascinated by the message. At the end of the book is a list of steps to becoming a 'born again' Christian. Being a good German he takes the steps very seriously and follows then to the letter.
Bingo he is deeply convicted and repentant and filled with the Spirit to the degree that his life is permanently transformed - he is now a Pastor.

Are we to believe He would not have been saved until he was Baptised some months later?

You thoughts on this appreciated.

I have just finished reading Goforth of China again. To say the least he was an amazing missionary who I believe was instrumental in the Chinese Church being what it is today.

I don't know how many converts he had but it must have been hundreds of thousands. He was totally 100% for God and he taught the same to his converts. He did not consider anyone as full on for Jesus until they were baptised on water. It seemed that after they were baptised, they had a different disposition and became more committed to their faith in God.

I realise that happened because that is what they were taught. I did not however get the impression that Goforth thought they were not christian until they were baptised.

I like to think of it as something that seals the deal. Like committing to a contract with a shake of the hand and then making it formal signing a written contract.

On the day of pentecost, the people asked what they should do? Peter said to repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of sins. I think we have a problem with that because we do everything but that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't believe that baptism is a prerequisite for salvation. Peter said to the crowd that if they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, they shall receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This suggests that when a person genuinely believes in their hearts, they receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit and that this causes the transformation. Believer's baptism in water comes after as a public declaration of the person's commitment to Christ.

You speak of a baptism in the Holy Spirit... is this being born again?

 

[artie annie]

I don't believe that baptism is a prerequisite for salvation. Peter said to the crowd that if they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, they shall receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This suggests that when a person genuinely believes in their hearts, they receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit and that this causes the transformation. Believer's baptism in water comes after as a public declaration of the person's commitment to Christ.

When you said Peter said to the crowd, are you referring to the day of pentecost. If that is the case, he said repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of sin.....He said nothing about believing on the Lord Jesus.

 

[Paul James]

You speak of a baptism in the Holy Spirit... is this being born again?

Well, that's what Peter said would happen. Pretty straight forward there. I know there is a doctrine that the baptism with the Spirit is a subsequent event, but I am not sure it is fully supported by Scripture. A lot of dependence is placed on the Acts reference about the disciples at Ephesus, but they had only the baptism of John the baptizer, so they might not have been converted to Christ until Paul preached the gospel to them, and when they accepted Christ, that's when they got baptised with the Spirit. This means that both references in Acts and what Paul said to the Galatians about receiving the Holy Spirit when they believed, tends to give more support for an immediate baptism of the Spirit upon believing on Christ, causing the transformation, than a subsequent event.

 

[Paul James]

When you said Peter said to the crowd, are you referring to the day of pentecost. If that is the case, he said repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of sin.....He said nothing about believing on the Lord Jesus.

"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

It is important to quote the verse accurately.

 

[NBB]

Well, that's what Peter said would happen. Pretty straight forward there. I know there is a doctrine that the baptism with the Spirit is a subsequent event, but I am not sure it is fully supported by Scripture. A lot of dependence is placed on the Acts reference about the disciples at Ephesus, but they had only the baptism of John the baptizer, so they might not have been converted to Christ until Paul preached the gospel to them, and when they accepted Christ, that's when they got baptised with the Spirit. This means that both references in Acts and what Paul said to the Galatians about receiving the Holy Spirit when they believed, tends to give more support for an immediate baptism of the Spirit upon believing on Christ, causing the transformation, than a subsequent event.

Sadly, when you believe that every christian is baptized with the Holy spirit upon converting, you are missing and not caring for the real deal with the baptism of the Holy spirit, or being filled with the Holy spirit.

What you say about the people who after years of believing even had this experience of being filled with the Holy spirit?

We need our 'pentecost' too... and we should seek it. Some people may be filled with the HS upon believing but is not the case lots of times.

 

[Paul James]

Sadly, when you believe that every christian is baptized with the Holy spirit upon converting, you are missing and not caring for the real deal with the baptism of the Holy spirit, or being filled with the Holy spirit.

What you say about the people who after years of believing even had this experience of being filled with the Holy spirit?

We need our 'pentecost' too... and we should seek it. Some people may be filled with the HS upon believing but is not the case lots of times.

All I am doing is reading the actual Scripture, and purposely not reading into Scripture that is not there. I believe that every genuine believer has the Holy Spirit, but not all believers know how to allow Him to flow out of them with the gifts, until they are shown.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Friends already with the small exchange I am blown away that there is not more agreement on the absolute fundamentals of our faith...

Born again - what does it mean.
Baptised in the Spirit - What does it mean.
Baptised in Water - is it necessary for salvation.

Would the Word be clearer about these issues if they really mattered?

Maybe He simply does what He does in lives and we are wrong to insist on a rigid pattern?

I will give you my take at some point if you are interested.

It is interesting that the most simple document of agreement throws no light on these issues.

 

[NBB]

All I am doing is reading the actual Scripture, and purposely not reading into Scripture that is not there. I believe that every genuine believer has the Holy Spirit, but not all believers know how to allow Him to flow out of them with the gifts, until they are shown.

When we believe we receive the Holy spirit, but being filled with the HS is something else. People have experienced this.

 

[NBB]

Friends already with the small exchange I am blown away that there is not more agreement on the absolute fundamentals of our faith...

Born again - what does it mean.
Baptised in the Spirit - What does it mean.
Baptised in Water - is it necessary for salvation.

Would the Word be clearer about these issues if they really mattered?

Maybe He simply does what He does in lives and we are wrong to insist on a rigid pattern?

I will give you my take at some point if you are interested.

Sorry, i just can't stand people believe we are filled with the Holy spirit always on believing, because we are missing some very important blessing ignoring this. Every christian should seek being filled with the HS.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think our terminology can be a bit loose.

Think of these phrases.

Filled with the Spirit
Baptised in the Spirit
Indwelled by the Spirit

Are these not distinctive experiences ???

 

[NBB]

I think our terminology can be a bit loose.

Think of these phrases.

Filled with the Spirit
Baptised in the Spirit
Indwelled by the Spirit

Are these not distinctive experiences ???

Filled and baptized should be the same right?, as in pentecost, 'and the building shoock, and they were filled with the HS' this is what pentecost was about to be filled.

Now, when we believe, the spirit is supposed to enter us right? but this Holy spirit in us, is not the same as being filled with him. They are different 'manifestations' and different results.

 

[Paul James]

Friends already with the small exchange I am blown away that there is not more agreement on the absolute fundamentals of our faith...

Born again - what does it mean.
Baptised in the Spirit - What does it mean.
Baptised in Water - is it necessary for salvation.

Would the Word be clearer about these issues if they really mattered?

Maybe He simply does what He does in lives and we are wrong to insist on a rigid pattern?

I will give you my take at some point if you are interested.

The problem is that different groups have decided on different theologies based on their experience, rather than carefully considering the literal text. I believe that the early Pentecostals believed in a subsequent experience after receiving Christ because many who received what they thought was the baptism with the Spirit were genuine Christians already. I believe that they had the Holy Spirit already but did not realise it because of the way they were taught. They didn't know that the Holy Spirit flowed out of them with the gifts until it started to happen. So, the AOG, instead of just accepting the literal text of the Scripture they decided to base their doctrine of subsequent experience based on experience rather than Scripture. This is one of the faults of the Pentecostal movement - there is a greater dependence on experience as a basis of faith, than the Scripture itself. Thus, because it seems that the outflow of the Holy Spirit in tongues and prophecy happens to Christians, they presume that this is the way the Holy Spirit always does it. But in the literal Scripture in Acts, there are no examples of it.

I believe that the Samaritans had Peter and John lay hands on them for the Holy Spirit after they received Christ was because Philip concentrated on getting them saved, while Peter and John gave them further teaching to assist them to allow the Holy Spirit to flow out of them with tongues and prophecy.