Born again...

[Paul James]

There are degrees of in filling.

Remember that the Holy Spirit is a Person, and not some "spiritual" liquid. There are levels of faith some have a strong faith in God's promises in His Word, and others have a weaker faith. Paul said in Romans that we should prophesy according to the portion of our faith. The filling of the Holy Spirit in Scripture means the degree in which we allow the Holy Spirit to move us, and this is in direct proportion to our faith.

 

[Paul James]

It says in Acts that Stephen was “filled with the Holy Spirit”
in a way that it’s clear it doesn’t mean earlier which makes no sense. He was filled with the HS at that time to do the task set before him. In the OT various people also had the Holy spirit which also departed from people as well. It says “be filled with the Holy Spirit” which makes no sense if it’s a one time event. I can go on.

You are confusing the work of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament with His permanent indwelling in New Testament believers. In the Old Testament, the Holy came to enable a holy man of God to perform specific tasks in the will of God for him at various times. Then when the task was accomplished, the Holy Spirit lifted of him.

In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the believer's spirit, and so the believer's spirit becomes one spirit with the Holy Spirit. As I said, the Holy Spirit is not like the Rockgas that fills my household gas cylinders to provide hot water for my home. He is a Person - God - who becomes one with our spirit. Christ in us, the hope of glory. How a person allows the Holy Spirit to flow out of him or her is another story. Some more than others.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You are confusing the work of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament with His permanent indwelling in New Testament believers. In the Old Testament, the Holy came to enable a holy man of God to perform specific tasks in the will of God for him at various times. Then when the task was accomplished, the Holy Spirit lifted of him.

Where do you get this idea? The Holy Spirit left a man in the Old Testament same as in the new, from sin in the person's life. The Holy Spirit of God is a person, not a raw power. God did not use people as tools and then leave them. You can read the writings of the prophets who were filled with His spirit and there was great love between God and the prophet. His spirit did not leave the man as if the man were merely a tool. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Because of JEsus the Holy SPirit is now poured out onto many.

In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the believer's spirit, and so the believer's spirit becomes one spirit with the Holy Spirit.

You will not find the concept of the believer's spirit and God's spirit becoming one. That is a hindu concept that has made its way into western thinking and so contaminated christian thought. God's spirit and our spirit are always separate beings, not one as is nirvana.

As I said, the Holy Spirit is not like the Rockgas that fills my household gas cylinders to provide hot water for my home. He is a Person - God - who becomes one with our spirit. Christ in us, the hope of glory. How a person allows the Holy Spirit to flow out of him or her is another story. Some more than others.

The Holy Spirit is not an implant that is with one for life. He can be grieved or quenched away. He can depart from the man who decides not to be Holy. He is not a state that one owns or is owed. He is not an entitlement.

 

[Paul James]

Where do you get this idea? The Holy Spirit left a man in the Old Testament same as in the new, from sin in the person's life. The Holy Spirit of God is a person, not a raw power. God did not use people as tools and then leave them. You can read the writings of the prophets who were filled with His spirit and there was great love between God and the prophet. His spirit did not leave the man as if the man were merely a tool. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Because of JEsus the Holy SPirit is now poured out onto many.

I just read the Bible as it is literally written. In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon holy men of God. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit dwells within the Believer.

You will not find the concept of the believer's spirit and God's spirit becoming one.

The oneness is not the becoming the same essence. It is one of unity. Our spirit and the Holy Spirit are separate, but work together in absolutely unity to fulfill the will of God in the person.

That is a hindu concept that has made its way into western thinking and so contaminated christian thought. God's spirit and our spirit are always separate beings, not one as is nirvana.

That is why I have qualified my previous statement.

The Holy Spirit is not an implant that is with one for life. He can be grieved or quenched away. He can depart from the man who decides not to be Holy. He is not a state that one owns or is owed. He is not an entitlement.

This is not what Jesus said in John about the coming of the Holy Spirit. You are reading stuff into the Scripture that is not there.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I just read the Bible as it is literally written. In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon holy men of God. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit dwells within the Believer.

The Holy Spirit comes upon people today as well. He also dwells in some, more than others and at different amounts at different times. It is the same only more people now and not just his prophets. This "coming upon" is not exclusive. You are not reading the Bible literally but making up how you think it ought to have been. John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit while in the womb. This was not a matter that came upon him from time to time and left.

The oneness is not the becoming the same essence. It is one of unity. Our spirit and the Holy Spirit are separate, but work together in absolutely unity to fulfill the will of God in the person.

If you read the Bible as literally written as you claim, where does it say that we become a oneness with God? Is it your experience and observation that Christians now are absolutely fulfillig the will of God day in and day out? Let us test your theory in your real life and those of CHristians you know. Is this what you see?

That is why I have qualified my previous statement.

This is not what Jesus said in John about the coming of the Holy Spirit. You are reading stuff into the Scripture that is not there.

I am reading the Bible as written. We are told not to grieve nor quench the Holy Spirit. David, by the way, prayed to God not to take HIs Holy Spirit from him. That is, David has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a normal course of life. It did not come upon him to do certain tasks alone. When a fire is quenched, it is out. Gone. Dead. The Holy Spirit does not remain in a person who was once walking with God in holiness and decides to leave that fellowship.

 

[Paul James]

The Holy Spirit comes upon people today as well. He also dwells in some, more than others and at different amounts at different times. It is the same only more people now and not just his prophets. This "coming upon" is not exclusive. You are not reading the Bible literally but making up how you think it ought to have been. John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit while in the womb. This was not a matter that came upon him from time to time and left.
If you read the Bible as literally written as you claim, where does it say that we become a oneness with God? Is it your experience and observation that Christians now are absolutely fulfillig the will of God day in and day out? Let us test your theory in your real life and those of CHristians you know. Is this what you see?
I am reading the Bible as written. We are told not to grieve nor quench the Holy Spirit. David, by the way, prayed to God not to take HIs Holy Spirit from him. That is, David has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a normal course of life. It did not come upon him to do certain tasks alone. When a fire is quenched, it is out. Gone. Dead. The Holy Spirit does not remain in a person who was once walking with God in holiness and decides to leave that fellowship.

If you want to believe that, fine. I'm not going to be contentious about it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If you want to believe that, fine. I'm not going to be contentious about it.

OK, if you want to believe what you do and do not want to look at what the Bible says about the Holy SPirit, then we can leave the matter there.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If Peter intended for the listeners to know that the gift of the Holy Spirit was going to come later, he would have said, "And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at a later time when you have hands laid on you." But he never said that.

Acts 8
14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Paul James]

Acts 8
14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

I suspected that this quote was going to come my way. I don't have an answer for that event, except that, is it wise to base a definite doctrine on an event which not carefully considering other Scriptures that refer to people receiving the Holy Spirit? If Paul is saying that the Galatians received the Holy Spirit when they were converted, and all the other events in Acts showed the Holy Spirit falling on people immediately they were converted to Christ, then, on the face of it, if we decide to establish a hard and fast doctrine that the baptism with the Spirit has to be a subsequent event as is AOG theology, could we be contradicting the other Scriptural references which cast a reasonable doubt on that doctrine as a "must believe" one?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It seems that there is a tendency in organizations to establish accepted patterns of how God ought to behave/interact with man so that they can know what to think. The idea of growing in discernment so that God gives one insight as to what to think is not desirable as it is not able to be controlled nor written into the charter nor taught as a ruler by which to measure. It is, however, how the Christians operated in the days before the written New Testament. The Holy Spirit was all they had at that time. Seemed to have served them better. Their written material is far superior to anything coming out of christendom today. The recepients even thought their written material inspired by God. Who thinks that of someone's book today?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I suspected that this quote was going to come my way. I don't have an answer for that event, except that, is it wise to base a definite doctrine on an event which not carefully considering other Scriptures that refer to people receiving the Holy Spirit? If Paul is saying that the Galatians received the Holy Spirit when they were converted, and all the other events in Acts showed the Holy Spirit falling on people immediately they were converted to Christ, then, on the face of it, if we decide to establish a hard and fast doctrine that the baptism with the Spirit has to be a subsequent event as is AOG theology, could we be contradicting the other Scriptural references which cast a reasonable doubt on that doctrine as a "must believe" one?

Friend, if all folks waited until all scriptures honestly lined up with their theology, there would be very few theologies...

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Friend, if all folks waited until all scriptures honestly lined up with their theology, there would be very few theologies...

More understanding the truth but less varieties of theology to
choose from.

 

[Paul James]

Friend, if all folks waited until all scriptures honestly lined up with their theology, there would be very few theologies...

Maybe we'd be better off!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Maybe we'd be better off!

We would be much better off!

 

[Sunshinee777]

Baptism by immersion in water - does not save a person

Jesus explained, “‘No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit'” (John 3:5). He was talking symbolically about baptism—about being immersed in the water, which symbolizes death to self, and being raised out of the water, which symbolizes resurrection to a new life.

People choose to do this .... or not.

Baptism by the Holy Spirit

Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:5, 6, RSV). Paul affirms that without the working of the Holy Spirit, we cannot experience regeneration and renewal (Titus 3:5). Indeed, as we are led by the Spirit of God, we become the children of God (Rom. 8:14). The Spirit awakens sinful and dead hearts (Eph. 2:1; Ezek. 36:26, 27) and opens our blind eyes (Acts 26:18; 2 Cor. 4:4). He does this by awakening in us an awareness of our sin (John 16:8) and convicting us of our lostness and need for a Savior.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is Gods divine gift He bestows in the believer .. (the reality of the symbolic)

One can receive baptism of the Holy Spirit (the real life changing) and choose not to be baptized by water (the symbolic).

When we receive Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit comes and enters into our human hearts and the baptism of His Holy Sprit is the beginning of sanctification process which is a life-time process. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is never ending, unless one chooses to continuously grieve the Spirit .... thereby committing blasphemy.

It’s the reciprocation of our love toward God. We are sanctified with the help of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) that Jesus gives us. Sanctification means to set a part or to make holy. His Holy Spirit helps us in this process to become more like Christ. This is not a one time event; it’s a life long process (we stumble here and there). The process of sanctifying and purifying us (the works that Jesus does in the believer, and is not of ourselves) ... it is HIM working in us and through us through the Holy Spirit. We are separated from the world. We are in the physical world but not of the world spiritually. Our mind (thinking) changes over time and therefore our actions also change. Our faith increases more and more as He faithfully works in us. Hebrews 12:2

Either or both baptisms do not have a specific order of occurrence.

We need to be baptized by fire!

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

The symbolism of fire is a symbol of the glory, presence, and power of God manifest in the ministry of the Holy Spirit. To be baptized with fire is to be immersed in the glory of God’s presence through the Holy Spirit in order to witness in His power. Moses met God at the burning bush and then left the glory of His presence in order to witness to Pharaoh. Elijah witnessed to Israel in the glory of God’s fiery presence on Mount Carmel. When tongues of fire fell on Pentecost, the disciples witnessed in languages that they had never before known. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is immersion in the presence and power of God in order that we can effectively witness of His glory. Once again, in the last days of earth’s history, God’s people will be immersed in His presence, filled with His power, and sent out to witness of His glory to the world.

I know also that baptism of fire is being in horrible trials (each of us is different) and depending only to God to survive from it, having 100% faith JUST in GOD. And when you survive from this, you have been baptised by fire. I think it´s the one of the biggest blessings to have.

 

[1watchman]

You speak of a baptism in the Holy Spirit... is this being born again?

I think that is the same, Carl. Salvation for eternity IS the new birth ("born again") as shown in John 3 If you read and pray over John 14 you will get the full picture of salvation. Keep looking up, friend!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Remember that the Holy Spirit is a Person, and not some "spiritual" liquid. There are levels of faith some have a strong faith in God's promises in His Word, and others have a weaker faith. Paul said in Romans that we should prophesy according to the portion of our faith. The filling of the Holy Spirit in Scripture means the degree in which we allow the Holy Spirit to move us, and this is in direct proportion to our faith.

Actually it’s in direct proportion to our obedience. Jesus actually says fhis. If we keep his teaching, God will dwell in us. He didn’t say if we have faith.

 

[pescador]

I agree, you can be filled partiallly too, and its not a one time event, we need it, life can rub some of if off i think too.

That is not scriptural. Where in the Bible do you find this doctrine? It says in my Bible that believers are given the Holy Spirit; it doesn't say "loaned".

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That is not scriptural. Where in the Bible do you find this doctrine? It says in my Bible that believers are given the Holy Spirit; it doesn't say "loaned".

Gifts can be lost. And if you want to use semantics, it doesn’t say the Holy Spirit is sentenced to live in a person no matter how they live.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ok at this point I have confirmed that at the heart of our journey into faith there is serious disagreement about how things are 'meant' to happen.

I notice the Church Fathers at Nicea were silent about this matter as well.

The most obvious reason is that God moves in lives in a variety of ways, so the acid test of if one is truely in 'The Way' is fruit.

Paul's conversion is a good example, and when he presented his ministry to the disciples in Jerusalem it was the fruit of his ministry that won the day not his theology. Peter warned that his theology was hard to understand.

The scripture is silent on the baptism of the disciples apart from Paul, and some claim this was a Baptism in the Spirit...

The other reason for disagreement is that one often aligns ones theology with Scripture and personal experience, and/or the writings of the Church Fathers.

I think also, that ones theology is shaped by what is going on at the time - if we were in medieval times we would have a different take on how the holy Spirit moves in lives than if we were converted during the Welsh revival.

I was alive in the faith during the Jesus movement of the 70's and witnessed extraordinary miracles and conversions so my take is a little different.

Folks were presenting with radically transformed lives way before they were baptised so there was no reason to think they were not born again.

Folks who had been walking with Jesus for years were suddenly spiritually gifted as at Pentecost. We had no reason to believe they had not previously been born again.

The ordained leaders had to swallow their preconceived ideas and allow the 'move' to happen. They couldn't argue with the stream of new converts, addicts instantly healed, family feuds reconciled, and swelling congregations with a deep love for Jesus.

I am not advocating experience above scripture but it is how we use scripture that is the problem. Never forget the best bible scholars of the day did not recognise God when He arrived and had Him hideously murdered.