Born again...

[Paul James]

When we believe we receive the Holy spirit, but being filled with the HS is something else. People have experienced this.

Just because people have experienced it that way doesn't mean that it is the Bible way. You might believe for yourself, based on your own experience, but you cannot speak for others who may have received the Holy Spirit as soon as they received Christ. All you can say is that it is your own opinion based on your own experience and theology.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi there,

We see references to being 'born again' only twice in the New Testament.

Once when Jesus talks to Nicodemus, and once mentioned by Peter.

Now in contemporary protestant Christianity this is a central pillar of theology, yet it gets little mention in the NT - not even one mention in the writings of Paul.

Strangely Nicodemus is rebuked by Jesus for not knowing about it, yet it is not directly referenced in the O.T.

Now some denominational theologies insist that being 'born again' simply means being Baptised. They insist that the journey with Jesus starts at baptism.

Yet Jesus said that unless one is born 'of water and of the Spirit' one will not enter the Kingdom of God...

Some believe this is a reference to natural birth then spiritual birth. (we are all naturally born in a bag of water)

Some say this being 'born again' or being 'born from above' is the beginning of the journey, and baptism follows.

Others believe that until we are baptised we are headed for hell.

Do we dare reference what Jesus is doing in lives?

Case in point - we had an intern from Germany who goes on a holiday here and stays at a backpackers for the night. He picks up a book by Nicky Gumble and is fascinated by the message. At the end of the book is a list of steps to becoming a 'born again' Christian. Being a good German he takes the steps very seriously and follows then to the letter.
Bingo he is deeply convicted and repentant and filled with the Spirit to the degree that his life is permanently transformed - he is now a Pastor.

Are we to believe He would not have been saved until he was Baptised some months later?

You thoughts on this appreciated.

Since God filled some Gentiles with the Holy Spirit before water baptism we can assume water baptism isn’t the pivotal point.

 

[Paul James]

I think our terminology can be a bit loose.

Think of these phrases.

Filled with the Spirit
Baptised in the Spirit
Indwelled by the Spirit

Are these not distinctive experiences ???

All three are one and the same thing, if we read the literal text correctly. Paul said in Galatians that when people believe (are born again) they receive the Holy Spirit. It seems strange that after a person receives Christ and receives the Holy Spirit that He goes away somewhere and comes back as a subsequent experience. According to what I see in the Bible, when a person receives the Holy Spirit, He stays within them. It may be at a later date that He starts flowing out of them with tongues and prophecy as the person learns from Scripture that because he has the Holy Spirit, he has the potential to manifest any of the gifts as the Spirit wills.

 

[NBB]

The problem is that different groups have decided on different theologies based on their experience, rather than carefully considering the literal text. I believe that the early Pentecostals believed in a subsequent experience after receiving Christ because many who received what they thought was the baptism with the Spirit were genuine Christians already. I believe that they had the Holy Spirit already but did not realise it because of the way they were taught. They didn't know that the Holy Spirit flowed out of them with the gifts until it started to happen. So, the AOG, instead of just accepting the literal text of the Scripture they decided to base their doctrine of subsequent experience based on experience rather than Scripture. This is one of the faults of the Pentecostal movement - there is a greater dependence on experience as a basis of faith, than the Scripture itself. Thus, because it seems that the outflow of the Holy Spirit in tongues and prophecy happens to Christians, they presume that this is the way the Holy Spirit always does it. But in the literal Scripture in Acts, there are no examples of it.

I believe that the Samaritans had Peter and John lay hands on them for the Holy Spirit after they received Christ was because Philip concentrated on getting them saved, while Peter and John gave them further teaching to assist them to allow the Holy Spirit to flow out of them with tongues and prophecy.

They prayed for them to be filled with the HS right?, this is the person of the Holy spirit filling you, every christian should seek this. Who wouldn't want the person of the Holy spirit manifesting in you in a better way and closer to you.

Now, maybe is just a matter of me having wrong perceptions about what you say, but if you believe every christian gets filled with the Holy spirit at converting then i have a 'little' issue with that because in my experience this is not true at all. And this doctrine is barring people from experiencing being filled.

 

[NBB]

Just because people have experienced it that way doesn't mean that it is the Bible way. You might believe for yourself, based on your own experience, but you cannot speak for others who may have received the Holy Spirit as soon as they received Christ. All you can say is that it is your own opinion based on your own experience and theology.

I'm pretty sure what i have experienced because i went from barely believing in God to fully believing for life, and those experiences were treasured of course.

And yes, some people get filled with the Holy spirit when believing, but a lot won't and they need to seek this... that is why i have issues with people that say everyone gets filled when believing

 

[Carl Emerson]

All three are one and the same thing, if we read the literal text correctly. Paul said in Galatians that when people believe (are born again) they receive the Holy Spirit. It seems strange that after a person receives Christ and receives the Holy Spirit that He goes away somewhere and comes back as a subsequent experience. According to what I see in the Bible, when a person receives the Holy Spirit, He stays within them. It may be at a later date that He starts flowing out of them with tongues and prophecy as the person learns from Scripture that because he has the Holy Spirit, he has the potential to manifest any of the gifts as the Spirit wills.

Can I give you something to consider.

Think of the life of Jesus.

Born with the Holy Spirit within...

At His Baptism the Holy Spirit descends upon Him in bodily form...

John the Baptist was told that the one upon whom the Spirit comes upon and remains upon is the Messiah. This was the first Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Note: it is permanent.

All others coming to be baptised would be blessed by the Holy Spirit who would then leave them.

Then, after the resurrection we are told Jesus breathed on the disciples and they received the Holy Spirit within.

Then later at Pentecost they had to wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon them (as He did at Jesus baptism) This as with Jesus was His permanent empowering for ministry.

So the 'within' and 'upon' distinction is critical and is clear in scripture.

Then there is an occasional 'top-up' as we can experience a weakening of the anointing. Eph 5:18 talks of dissipating the Holy Spirit by consuming alcohol. So there are circumstances in life that grieve Him and we need to be reconnected and refilled. So we at times need to be filled with the Spirit afresh.

I am just putting these matters out there for your consideration.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They prayed for them to be filled with the HS right?, this is the person of the Holy spirit filling you, every christian should seek this. Who wouldn't want the person of the Holy spirit manifesting in you in a better way and closer to you.

As long as one doesn’t need to alter one’s life, there no reason a Christian wouldn’t want the Holy Spirit. If there’s a price, well, some will prefer not.

Now, maybe is just a matter of me having wrong perceptions about what you say, but if you believe every christian gets filled with the Holy spirit at converting then i have a 'little' issue with that because in my experience this is not true at all. And this doctrine is barring people from experiencing being filled.

I agree with you. The idea that once filled, always filled, prevents many a believer from seeking more.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Just because people have experienced it that way doesn't mean that it is the Bible way. You might believe for yourself, based on your own experience, but you cannot speak for others who may have received the Holy Spirit as soon as they received Christ. All you can say is that it is your own opinion based on your own experience and theology.

There are degrees of in filling.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Being dipped/immersed in water without 1st being immersed/indwelt with Christ's spiritual baptizm, will only result in getting wet.

Beginning in Acts 10:44 spiritual baptism is 1st & water baptism follows. The repent & be water baptized narrative isn't applicable for today's Church/Body of Christ.

Repentance: Strong's Hebrews ( H7725:שׁוּב ) to turn back, return, a wholehearted turning to God.
(NOTE: The different way repent translates in Hebrew vs Greek. John wasn't speaking Greek, nor was he preaching to gentiles. Gentiles had nothing to return/turn back to, no relationship, no covenant, no hope & were without God. Eph 2:12)

OT Jewish repentance rituals: rending of garments, wearing sackcloth, sitting in ashes, putting ashes on top of his head, fasting, weeping, wailing. Every Jew at John's baptism was familiar with repentance/turning back to God rituals. (See Joel 2:12-13).

John 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
(NOTE: Questions about water baptism/PURIFYING rituals)

Emblem = A symbolic representation of a particular quality, concept, action:

Water baptism is an emblem: An outwardly visible expression of our indwelling Spiritual Baptism. (1 Cor 3:16, 6:19, 2 Cor 6:16, 2 Tim 1:14, Gal 4:6, Rom 8:9,11,15).

Only Christ has the power & authority to baptize with the eternally saving/sealing indwelling Holy Spirit.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(NOTE: John the Baptist made clear that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit)

1 Cor 12:13 """For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body""", whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(NOTE: Translators capitalized Spirit to identify when referring the Holy Spirit. Only Christ can baptize with the one Spirit/indwelling Holy Spirit.)

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision """made without hands""", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(NOTE: The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a SPIRITUAL circumcision/covenant done without hands & without water)

Deut 30:6 (A) the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart,

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(NOTE: Circumcision of the heart, in the spirit)

New Covenant Spiritual Seal: Christ's baptism with the indwelling Holy Spirit

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, """ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"""
NOTE: Christ SEALS believers with Gods promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit)

Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(NOTE: God's Spirit dwells in every believer)

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us.
(NOTE: God places/seals his love in our hearts via His Holy Spirit given unto us)
1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, "and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you"?
(NOTE: The Promised Gift of God's indwelling Holy Spirit dwells in every believer)

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is "Christ in you", the hope of glory:
(NOTE: Christ/God's Spirit is in you)

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that thru the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of 1 body, & sharers together in the promise "in Christ"
(NOTE: Gentiles share in the PROMISED indwelling Holy Spirit)

Ehp 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(NOTE: Believers are SEALED Gods indwelling Holy Spirit until the day their Adamic corruptible bodies are redeemed & transformed into, eternal, incorruptible Heavenly bodies)

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(NOTE: The Comforter <(Capitalized showing deity) > Holy Spirit will abide with you FOREVER)

There were many ordination/admittance requirements under Mosaic law. Daily sacrifices, circumcision, adhere with absolute fidelity to every commandment the Lord gave to the Nation of Israel Deut 28, or be cursed Vs 15-65.

Only ONE admittance requirement under the NT is BELIEVE, Jesus is Lord, paid sin required wage & rose on the 3rd day.

After salvation/Christ's baptism gift of His indwelling Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Acts 1:5)

There are two Commandments & two ordinance the Lord invoked.

Love God 1st & love your brother believer. Partake in water baptism & the Lords Supper.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Verb, G4972, sphragizo - """to seal""" - is used to indicate:

(d) ownership and security, together with destination, Revelation 7:3-Revelation 7:5 (as with the noun in Revelation 7:2; See A); the same three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13, in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," not as the aorist participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (See also Ephesians 1:14); so Ephesians 4:30, "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;" so in 2 Corinthians 1:22, where the Middle Voice intimates the special interest of the Sealer in His act.

Post is My Opinion Only

 

[pescador]

They prayed for them to be filled with the HS right?, this is the person of the Holy spirit filling you, every christian should seek this. Who wouldn't want the person of the Holy spirit manifesting in you in a better way and closer to you.

Now, maybe is just a matter of me having wrong perceptions about what you say, but if you believe every christian gets filled with the Holy spirit at converting then i have a 'little' issue with that because in my experience this is not true at all. And this doctrine is barring people from experiencing being filled.

No it isn't.

 

[pescador]

There are degrees of in filling.

Wrong. You're either filled or you're not. Where in Scripture do you find people receiving the Spirit partially?

 

[Sunshinee777]

I don't believe that baptism is a prerequisite for salvation. Peter said to the crowd that if they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, they shall receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This suggests that when a person genuinely believes in their hearts, they receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit and that this causes the transformation. Believer's baptism in water comes after as a public declaration of the person's commitment to Christ.

I agree with you. Also I have been witnessed that you can be filled with holy spirit without baptism. You can also meet Christ without baptism (of course). I don´t believe that God would abandon anybody who believes in Jesus Christ as a saviour just because he doesn´t have opportunity to get baptised. Bless you all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Wrong. You're either filled or you're not. Where in Scripture do you find people receiving the Spirit partially?

It says in Acts that Stephen was “filled with the Holy Spirit”
in a way that it’s clear it doesn’t mean earlier which makes no sense. He was filled with the HS at that time to do the task set before him. In the OT various people also had the Holy spirit which also departed from people as well. It says “be filled with the Holy Spirit” which makes no sense if it’s a one time event. I can go on.

 

[Sunshinee777]

Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

 

[NBB]

It says in Acts that Stephen was “filled with the Holy Spirit”
in a way that it’s clear it doesn’t mean earlier which makes no sense. He was filled with the HS at that time to do the task set before him. In the OT various people also had the Holy spirit which also departed from people as well. It says “be filled with the Holy Spirit” which makes no sense if it’s a one time event. I can go on.

I agree, you can be filled partiallly too, and its not a one time event, we need it, life can rub some of if off i think too.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree, you can be filled partiallly too, and its not a one time event, we need it, life can rub some of if off i think too.

The Spirit can also depart.

 

[NBB]

The Spirit can also depart.

Yes the Holy spirit can't live with you if you sin... this being filled is special in the sense that we need to take care of it and is the Holy spirit being very close to us manifesting in ourselves. And he just can't stand if we get dirty too often.

 

[eleos1954]

Hi there,

We see references to being 'born again' only twice in the New Testament.

Once when Jesus talks to Nicodemus, and once mentioned by Peter.

Now in contemporary protestant Christianity this is a central pillar of theology, yet it gets little mention in the NT - not even one mention in the writings of Paul.

Strangely Nicodemus is rebuked by Jesus for not knowing about it, yet it is not directly referenced in the O.T.

Now some denominational theologies insist that being 'born again' simply means being Baptised. They insist that the journey with Jesus starts at baptism.

Yet Jesus said that unless one is born 'of water and of the Spirit' one will not enter the Kingdom of God...

Some believe this is a reference to natural birth then spiritual birth. (we are all naturally born in a bag of water)

Some say this being 'born again' or being 'born from above' is the beginning of the journey, and baptism follows.

Others believe that until we are baptised we are headed for hell.

Do we dare reference what Jesus is doing in lives?

Case in point - we had an intern from Germany who goes on a holiday here and stays at a backpackers for the night. He picks up a book by Nicky Gumble and is fascinated by the message. At the end of the book is a list of steps to becoming a 'born again' Christian. Being a good German he takes the steps very seriously and follows then to the letter.
Bingo he is deeply convicted and repentant and filled with the Spirit to the degree that his life is permanently transformed - he is now a Pastor.

Are we to believe He would not have been saved until he was Baptised some months later?

You thoughts on this appreciated.

Baptism by immersion in water - does not save a person

Jesus explained, “‘No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit'” (John 3:5). He was talking symbolically about baptism—about being immersed in the water, which symbolizes death to self, and being raised out of the water, which symbolizes resurrection to a new life.

People choose to do this .... or not.

Baptism by the Holy Spirit

Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:5, 6, RSV). Paul affirms that without the working of the Holy Spirit, we cannot experience regeneration and renewal (Titus 3:5). Indeed, as we are led by the Spirit of God, we become the children of God (Rom. 8:14). The Spirit awakens sinful and dead hearts (Eph. 2:1; Ezek. 36:26, 27) and opens our blind eyes (Acts 26:18; 2 Cor. 4:4). He does this by awakening in us an awareness of our sin (John 16:8) and convicting us of our lostness and need for a Savior.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is Gods divine gift He bestows in the believer .. (the reality of the symbolic)

One can receive baptism of the Holy Spirit (the real life changing) and choose not to be baptized by water (the symbolic).

When we receive Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit comes and enters into our human hearts and the baptism of His Holy Sprit is the beginning of sanctification process which is a life-time process. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is never ending, unless one chooses to continuously grieve the Spirit .... thereby committing blasphemy.

It’s the reciprocation of our love toward God. We are sanctified with the help of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) that Jesus gives us. Sanctification means to set a part or to make holy. His Holy Spirit helps us in this process to become more like Christ. This is not a one time event; it’s a life long process (we stumble here and there). The process of sanctifying and purifying us (the works that Jesus does in the believer, and is not of ourselves) ... it is HIM working in us and through us through the Holy Spirit. We are separated from the world. We are in the physical world but not of the world spiritually. Our mind (thinking) changes over time and therefore our actions also change. Our faith increases more and more as He faithfully works in us. Hebrews 12:2

Either or both baptisms do not have a specific order of occurrence.

We need to be baptized by fire!

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

The symbolism of fire is a symbol of the glory, presence, and power of God manifest in the ministry of the Holy Spirit. To be baptized with fire is to be immersed in the glory of God’s presence through the Holy Spirit in order to witness in His power. Moses met God at the burning bush and then left the glory of His presence in order to witness to Pharaoh. Elijah witnessed to Israel in the glory of God’s fiery presence on Mount Carmel. When tongues of fire fell on Pentecost, the disciples witnessed in languages that they had never before known. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is immersion in the presence and power of God in order that we can effectively witness of His glory. Once again, in the last days of earth’s history, God’s people will be immersed in His presence, filled with His power, and sent out to witness of His glory to the world.

 

[Paul James]

They prayed for them to be filled with the HS right?, this is the person of the Holy spirit filling you, every christian should seek this. Who wouldn't want the person of the Holy spirit manifesting in you in a better way and closer to you.

Now, maybe is just a matter of me having wrong perceptions about what you say, but if you believe every christian gets filled with the Holy spirit at converting then i have a 'little' issue with that because in my experience this is not true at all. And this doctrine is barring people from experiencing being filled.

I tend to the side of having the fullness of the Holy Spirit right as part of conversion to Christ, because right from the start we have the full power and potential of the Spirit with all of His tools of trade (gifts). That gets rid of the "us and them" discrimination between Pentecostals and those of other denominations whom I believe both have the Holy Spirit.

I need to make it clear that I am not talking about those who make some sort of profession of Christianity - ie: have a form of godliness on the outward appearance but with unchanged hearts. I am talking about those who have sincerely turned to Christ in their hearts and have undergone the full born-again transformation. It is the Holy Spirit who has caused the transformation.

What we need to do is to show them how to allow the Holy Spirit to flow out of them through the gifts. I believe that when people are prayed for to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit, they are not actually receiving the Spirit whom they already have dwelling in them, but the prayer of faith releases the Spirit to flow out, and often what flows out first is the prayer language we call tongues.

Anyhow, what is the difference when a person has the Holy Spirit flowing out of them, how it started? The way in which they had the release of the Spirit becomes a non-issue. I think it is better to show them the Scriptures that support a believer having the Holy Spirit at conversion, get them to believe that, and then encourage them to use their faith to allow the Spirit to move through them with the gifts.

 

[Paul James]

Can I give you something to consider.

Think of the life of Jesus.

Born with the Holy Spirit within...

At His Baptism the Holy Spirit descends upon Him in bodily form...

John the Baptist was told that the one upon whom the Spirit comes upon and remains upon is the Messiah. This was the first Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Note: it is permanent.

All others coming to be baptised would be blessed by the Holy Spirit who would then leave them.

Then, after the resurrection we are told Jesus breathed on the disciples and they received the Holy Spirit within.

Then later at Pentecost they had to wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon them (as He did at Jesus baptism) This as with Jesus was His permanent empowering for ministry.

So the 'within' and 'upon' distinction is critical and is clear in scripture.

Then there is an occasional 'top-up' as we can experience a weakening of the anointing. Eph 5:18 talks of dissipating the Holy Spirit by consuming alcohol. So there are circumstances in life that grieve Him and we need to be reconnected and refilled. So we at times need to be filled with the Spirit afresh.

I am just putting these matters out there for your consideration.

Scripture interprets Scripture, and it doesn't contradict itself. Peter's answer to the crowd about receiving Christ included receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit as part of it, not at a later time. To say that Peter inferred that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit as a subsequent event is actually reading into Peter's words which are not there. If Peter intended for the listeners to know that the gift of the Holy Spirit was going to come later, he would have said, "And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at a later time when you have hands laid on you." But he never said that. The literal rending of Peter's words were that the gift of the Holy Spirit happened when the people believed, got baptised in the Name of Jesus, all in one go.

Paul implied that the Holy Spirit came at conversion when he asked the Galatians, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit through faith or works?" (my paraphrase from memory). He was speaking about their conversion to Christ, and equated receiving the Holy Spirit with conversion. Those who teach that the Holy Spirit baptises people into the body of Christ, and then Jesus baptises with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience, are reading into what the Scripture doesn't say. The Holy Spirit baptism and Holy Spirit baptism into the body of Christ are one and the same thing, just expressed in different ways.

The Holy Spirit doesn't come along into the person baptising them in to the body of Christ, and then goes away to come back to baptise them with Himself, just doesn't make sense. At Pentecost, the disciples were baptised with the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ all at once, and that is what Peter told the listeners who cried out, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"