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Fidelibus

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I've heard the claim that Protestant are splintered into tens of thousands of denominations. Where are all these thousands of denominations? In actuality, there are a limited number of denominations represented on CF and in a standard phone book.

Interesting. In the city where I live in the western U.S. with a pop. of 180,000 there are over 200 different Protestant Bible believing/Non-Denominational, non-Catholic church's and or sects listed in the phone book or online. That's not counting the ones that hold their services in school gyms, rented hall's, private homes/ living rooms, garages, ect. Now if you were to multiply these by every City, Town, and Village throughout the world, what number do you think you'd come up with?

Have a Blessed Easter Season
 
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HereIStand

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Interesting. In the city where I live in the western U.S. with a pop. of 180,000 there are over 200 different Protestant Bible believing/Non-Denominational, non-Catholic church's and or sects listed in the phone book or online. That's not counting the ones that hold their services in school gyms, rented hall's, private homes/ living rooms, garages, ect. Now if you were to multiply these by every City, Town, and Village throughout the world, what number do you think you'd come up with?

Have a Blessed Easter Season
There are different types of Baptists and Presbyterians. They all still fit under the umbrella of one general group. The same holds true for other groups. Driving through any city or hamlet, one would find a variety of churches, but most of them fall under the umbrella of a limited number of groups.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Interesting. In the city where I live in the western U.S. with a pop. of 180,000 there are over 200 different Protestant Bible believing/Non-Denominational, non-Catholic church's and or sects listed in the phone book or online. That's not counting the ones that hold their services in school gyms, rented hall's, private homes/ living rooms, garages, ect. Now if you were to multiply these by every City, Town, and Village throughout the world, what number do you think you'd come up with?

Have a Blessed Easter Season

If you count every self-described non-denominational church as its own denomination, then yes; at that point the number of "denominations" shoots up considerably.

However, if there are 200 Protestant denominations represented in your city, and the next city over has 200 Protestant denominations represented--and they are the same denominations, you don't get 400 denominations, you still only have 200 denominations.

The reality is that most mainline denominations have both a national communion and an international presence. My church, the ELCA, exists in the United States, but is part of the Lutheran World Federation; which is an international communion of Lutheran churches. Is the ELCA a different denomination than the ELCIC and Church of Sweden? Yes; are they competing denominations existing outside of communion with one another? No. And those sorts of international communions exist all over the place, and trying to treat (e.g.) the ELCA and ELCIC as though they are schisms of schisms of schisms to show just how schismatic Protestantism has become is faulty.

If you want to make the case that Protestantism is an umbrella term that refers to a very diverse number of Christian groups, often with breaks and schisms along the way--that is absolutely a fair assessment, and if you want to build a criticism using that, feel free to do so. But don't exaggerate just so your argument looks better.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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W2L

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I see so no one really knows if they are "born again" until their human life ends. It could be a "false conversion" I am to understand. Is this in the scriptures anywhere?
Im born again.

1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Colossians 3 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
 
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Johnsloan

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I am very familiar yet I believe non Catholics are sadly misguided and misinformed as to what they think "born again" or "saved" means.
I think the same about you. You are talking about saved yet never even mention what it is.

What is saved on your opinion?
 
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Johnsloan

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If you count every self-described non-denominational church as its own denomination, then yes; at that point the number of "denominations" shoots up considerably.

However, if there are 200 Protestant denominations represented in your city, and the next city over has 200 Protestant denominations represented--and they are the same denominations, you don't get 400 denominations, you still only have 200 denominations.

The reality is that most mainline denominations have both a national communion and an international presence. My church, the ELCA, exists in the United States, but is part of the Lutheran World Federation; which is an international communion of Lutheran churches. Is the ELCA a different denomination than the ELCIC and Church of Sweden? Yes; are they competing denominations existing outside of communion with one another? No. And those sorts of international communions exist all over the place, and trying to treat (e.g.) the ELCA and ELCIC as though they are schisms of schisms of schisms to show just how schismatic Protestantism has become is faulty.

If you want to make the case that Protestantism is an umbrella term that refers to a very diverse number of Christian groups, often with breaks and schisms along the way--that is absolutely a fair assessment, and if you want to build a criticism using that, feel free to do so. But don't exaggerate just so your argument looks better.

-CryptoLutheran
There are 35.000 denominations
 
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Fidelibus

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There are different types of Baptists and Presbyterians. They all still fit under the umbrella of one general group. The same holds true for other groups. Driving through any city or hamlet, one would find a variety of churches, but most of them fall under the umbrella of a limited number of groups.


I know this is going off topic, but find it interseting. If all these groups fit under the "umbrella of one general group"...... why so much disunity among them. Some of these groups teach and believe Abortion is permissable, some do not. Some of these groups teach/believe same sex marriage is permissable, some do not. Now you may argue that they are united in the "essentials" of the faith, but then I would have to ask...Who or what authority within these groups as a whole determines which beliefs constitute essentials and which do not?


For example... Would a Lutheran Pastor be allowed to preach his belief in baptismal regeneration in a Calvinist church? Or a Calvinist’s pastor's belief in high predestination in a Methodist church? Or a Methodist Pasiotr's belief in infant baptism in a Baptist church? And so on?
 
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HereIStand

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I know this is going off topic, but find it interseting. If all these groups fit under the "umbrella of one general group"...... why so much disunity among them. Some of these groups teach and believe Abortion is permissable, some do not. Some of these groups teach/believe same sex marriage is permissable, some do not. Now you may argue that they are united in the "essentials" of the faith, but then I would have to ask...Who or what authority within these groups as a whole determines which beliefs constitute essentials and which do not?


For example... Would a Lutheran Pastor be allowed to preach his belief in baptismal regeneration in a Calvinist church? Or a Calvinist’s pastor's belief in high predestination in a Methodist church? Or a Methodist Pasiotr's belief in infant baptism in a Baptist church? And so on?
There are theological liberals and conservatives to be sure, as there are in Catholicism. Protestants form a separate group instead of remaining as one church. Evangelical Presbyterians split off from the mainline church. They didn't form a church out of blue. The same holds true for Lutherans and other groups.
 
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Fidelibus

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There are theological liberals and conservatives to be sure, as there are in Catholicism.


Surely you are not comparing the dis- unity among the many different Protestant churches and sects with the Catholic Church. I will admit there are dissenters/ Cafeteria Catholics within our faith, but nothing to the degree of Protestantism.

From The Catechism of the Catholic Church;

2039: Ministries should be exercised in a spirit of fraternal service and dedication to the Church, in the name of the Lord.81 At the same time the conscience of each person should avoid confining itself to individualistic considerations in its moral judgments of the person's own acts. As far as possible conscience should take account of the good of all, as expressed in the moral law, natural and revealed, and consequently in the law of the Church and in the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium on moral questions. Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.

Protestants form a separate group instead of remaining as one church. Evangelical Presbyterians split off from the mainline church. They didn't form a church out of blue. The same holds true for Lutherans and other groups.


So in other words, and contrary to your earlier post, these different non-Catholic denominations/sects do not fit under the umbrella of one general group.
 
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HereIStand

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Surely you are not comparing the dis- unity among the many different Protestant churches and sects with the Catholic Church. I will admit there are dissenters/ Cafeteria Catholics within our faith, but nothing to the degree of Protestantism.

From The Catechism of the Catholic Church;






So in other words, and contrary to your earlier post, these different non-Catholic denominations/sects do not fit under the umbrella of one general group.
In my community, there is one Lutheran church and one evangelical Presbyterian church. If you affiliate with one of those groups, you have no other options in town. It's that way all over the country. There are a limited number of denominations to select from. The often repeated claim that there are thousands of Protestant denominations doesn't match reality on the ground.
 
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Fidelibus

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In my community, there is one Lutheran church and one evangelical Presbyterian church. If you affiliate with one of those groups, you have no other options in town.


I am guessing the town you live in must be very small. Could I ask what part of the U.S. you hail from, and the estimated population of the town you preside, and how far is your nearest Catholic Church?


It's that way all over the country.

As a former Protestant and convert to the Catholic faith that's traveled extensivisly thoughout the U.S., this is not what I've experienced.

There are a limited number of denominations to select from.

With all due respect, I have to disagree.


The often repeated claim that there are thousands of Protestant denominations doesn't match reality on the ground.

Could I then ask what number would you consider to be more accurate, taking into account every Protestant/ Non-Denominational church or sect's that's being held by a pastor that received his/her degree online that holds services in school gyms, rented halls, private homes, i.e. garages, living rooms, Hut's ect. throughout the globe?


Have a Blessed Easter Season.
 
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HereIStand

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I am guessing the town you live in must be very small. Could I ask what part of the U.S. you hail from, and the estimated population of the town you preside, and how far is your nearest Catholic Church?




As a former Protestant and convert to the Catholic faith that's traveled extensivisly thoughout the U.S., this is not what I've experienced.



With all due respect, I have to disagree.




Could I then ask what number would you consider to be more accurate, taking into account every Protestant/ Non-Denominational church or sect's that's being held by a pastor that received his/her degree online that holds services in school gyms, rented halls, private homes, i.e. garages, living rooms, Hut's ect. throughout the globe?


Have a Blessed Easter Season.
There is one Catholic church in my community. There are a number of Baptist, Methodist, a few Church of Christ, two large Pentecostal/Assembly of God churches, a large non-denominational church, and an assortment of others. However one slices it, there aren't countless options. It would help the cause of Catholicism if this urban legend is abandoned. It would also help to adopt a less haughty tone and refrain from demeaning Protestant pastors.
 
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Fidelibus

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There is one Catholic church in my community.

A community of how many?

There are a number of Baptist, Methodist, a few Church of Christ, two large Pentecostal/Assembly of God churches, a large non-denominational church, and an assortment of others.

So is the community you live in now different than the community you spoke of in post # 50 where you stated:

In my community, there is one Lutheran church and one evangelical Presbyterian church. If you affiliate with one of those groups, you have no other options in town.

And could you elaborate more on "an assortment of others" you spoke of?


However one slices it, there aren't countless options.

Hmmm....IDK, by your post it kind of sounds as if there is.

It would help the cause of Catholicism if this urban legend is abandoned.

How do you mean, and what cause?


It would also help to adopt a less haughty tone and refrain from demeaning Protestant pastors.

Yes, you are correct, I should have worded it differently, and not included all Protestant Clergy as a whole.. My apologies. The point I was trying to make is that there are many Christian/ bible believing sects that hold their services in School Gyms, Rented hall's, private homes, ect. by so-called Pastors whom received their Reverand degree on-line just by sending in a fee of a hundred or so dollars compared to those that spent years studying to obtain their degree. Would you not agree?

Again, my apologies to any Clergy I may have offended.

As for the topic of this thread..."Born Again." Am I ?? Yes!!! Just as the Bible say's.. through Baptism I was saved. (1 Ptr 3:20-21) And it is through Baptism, water and the Spirit, that I am "born again," just as the Bible says in John 3:5.

So yes.....as a Catholic I believe I am born again. And, as a Catholic, I believe that I was saved, as Paul says in Rom 8:24; that we are being saved, as Paul says in 1 Cor 1:18; and that we will be saved, as Paul says in Rom 5:9-10, provided we persevere and keep our eyes on the prize.

As a Catholic I believe, (and the Bible clearly teaches) Salvation is a process.


Have a Blessed Easter Season!
 
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HereIStand

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A community of how many?



So is the community you live in now different than the community you spoke of in post # 50 where you stated:



And could you elaborate more on "an assortment of others" you spoke of?




Hmmm....IDK, by your post it kind of sounds as if there is.



How do you mean, and what cause?




Yes, you are correct, I should have worded it differently, and not included all Protestant Clergy as a whole.. My apologies. The point I was trying to make is that there are many Christian/ bible believing sects that hold their services in School Gyms, Rented hall's, private homes, ect. by so-called Pastors whom received their Reverand degree on-line just by sending in a fee of a hundred or so dollars compared to those that spent years studying to obtain their degree. Would you not agree?

Again, my apologies to any Clergy I may have offended.

As for the topic of this thread..."Born Again." Am I ?? Yes!!! Just as the Bible say's.. through Baptism I was saved. (1 Ptr 3:20-21) And it is through Baptism, water and the Spirit, that I am "born again," just as the Bible says in John 3:5.

So yes.....as a Catholic I believe I am born again. And, as a Catholic, I believe that I was saved, as Paul says in Rom 8:24; that we are being saved, as Paul says in 1 Cor 1:18; and that we will be saved, as Paul says in Rom 5:9-10, provided we persevere and keep our eyes on the prize.

As a Catholic I believe, (and the Bible clearly teaches) Salvation is a process.


Have a Blessed Easter Season!
I could provide a list of every church in my city. But there are only so many. Keep arguing that there are an unlimited number. It's not going to convert anyone to Catholicism.

I know of churches that meet in rented spaces. Not sure what's wrong with that. I have yet to encounter a pastor who obtained his "degree on-line just by sending in a fee of a hundred or so dollars." Try to avoid condescending generalizations.
 
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Fidelibus

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Keep arguing that there are an unlimited number. It's not going to convert anyone to Catholicism.

Not trying to argue at all HereIStand, just showing facts. As for it's not converting anyone to Catholicism, I am proof that it did. Before my conversion to the Catholic Church, I was a member to many of the churches and sects you listed. I kept "church shopping" to try and find a church that "felt good." and was what I thought was keeping to the truth of God's Word. What I found was that most if not all the different churches and sects I attended and was a member of (even a couple of those on-line pastor home churches) taught and interpreted Scripture different. Like I said before, some said abortion was okay, and some said not. Some said Baptisim was necessary for Salvation, and some said not. Some said same sex marriage was okay, and some said not. ect. ect.

After many years of frustration I thought that this can't be right, surley the Holy Spirit wouldn't/ couldn't teach so much dis-unity. So I started to study the early church Fathers and Early Chuch history (pre-reformation) to see what they taught and believed. And to my dismay, I learned that what they believed is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches and believes to this day. Hence, my conversion to the true Church, the Church Jesus Christ founded! That Easter Vigil when I was welcomed home was and is one of the happiest day's of my life. The feeling of coming home is immeasurable!


I know of churches that meet in rented spaces. Not sure what's wrong with that.

So do I, (like I said, been there) and if they are what your looking for, guess there is nothing wrong with that. The dis-unity just wasn't for me.



I have yet to encounter a pastor who obtained his "degree on-line just by sending in a fee of a hundred or so dollars."

Again, I have.

Try to avoid condescending generalizations.

Sorry if I came across with an superior attitude, for that was not my intent.


Have a Blessed Easter Season.
 
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Albion

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So I started to study the early church Fathers and Early Chuch history (pre-reformation) to see what they taught and believed. And to my dismay, I learned that what they believed is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches and believes to this day. .
Really? They surely did not believe and teach Papal Infallibility, Indulgences, Seven Sacraments, and a batch of other Roman Catholic distinctives. Interestingly enough, it was my own study of the same Fathers and Early Church history which convinced me that the Catholic Church, for all its good points, is not what it claims to be.
 
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Fidelibus

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Really? They surely did not believe and teach Papal Infallibility, Indulgences, Seven Sacraments

Well.....Let's see.

Cyprian of Carthage: (Epistulae 59 (55), 14, [256 A.D.]).

"Would heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come."

Irenaeus of Lyons: (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition."

Pope Sixtus III: 433 a.d.

"all know that to assent to [the Bishop of Rome’s] decision is to assent to St. Peter, who lives in his successors and whose faith fails not."


[Indulgences]

~57 A.D. - St. Paul - “For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough...you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him...I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. … What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ.” (2 Corinthians 2:5-10)

~197 A.D. - Tertullian - “Some, not able to find this peace in the Church, have been used to seek it from the imprisoned martyrs. And so you [imprisoned Christians] ought to have it dwelling with you, and to cherish it, and to guard it, that you may be able perhaps to bestow it upon others.” (Ad Martyras Chapter 1)

222 A.D. - Tertullian - “[N]ow you are ascribing this power [of granting indulgences] even to your dear martyrs. As soon as someone of his own accord has taken on the fetters...at once the adulterers are swarming about…[and] prayers are humming in the air... Men and women crowd [them]...beg for [their] blessing...and return from there as [restored to] the community.” (On Modesty Chapter 22)

250 A.D. - St. Cyprian - “[A]ccording to your diligence...designate those by name to whom you desire that peace should be granted. For I hear that certificates [of indulgence] are [too freely] given.” (Letter 10 or 15 Paragraph 4)

[Seven Sacraments]

1. Baptisim:

The Didache....."After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days." (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas....."Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, “Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.” Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls.' (11[A.D. 74]).

Hermas...."I have heard, sir,” said I [to the Shepherd], “from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.” He said to me, “You have heard rightly, for so it is” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Tertullian:...."When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times." (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).

Hippolytus....."Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them." (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).

Origen...."The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit." (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

2.Confirmation:

Theophilus of Antioch......"Are you unwilling to be anointed with the oil of God? It is on this account that we are called Christians: because we are anointed with the oil of God." (To Autolycus 1:12 [A.D. 181]).

Tertullian....."After coming from the place of washing we are thoroughly anointed with a blessed unction, from the ancient discipline by which [those] in the priesthood . . . were accustomed to be anointed with a horn of oil, ever since Aaron was anointed by Moses. . . . So also with us, the unction runs on the body and profits us spiritually, in the same way that baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. After this, the hand is imposed for a blessing, invoking and inviting the Holy Spirit." (Baptism 7:1–2, 8:1 [A.D. 203]).

Cyprian of Carthage....."It is necessary for him that has been baptized also to be anointed, so that by his having received chrism, that is, the anointing, he can be the anointed of God and have in him the grace of Christ." (Letters 7:2 [A.D. 253]).

3. Eucharist:

Ignatius of Antioch...."Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes." (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr....."We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these, but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus." (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Clement of Alexandria...."Eat my flesh)" [Jesus] says, "and drink my blood." The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children." (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).

4. Penance:

The Didache...."Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . , On the Lord's Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure." (Didache 4:14,14:1 [A.D.70]).

The Letter of Barnabas...."You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light." (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch...."For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ." (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

5. Anointing of the Sick:

Origen....."[The penitent Christian] does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine . . . [of] which the apostle James says: ‘If then there is anyone sick, let him call the presbyters of the Church, and let them impose hands upon him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him." (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 250]).

Council of Nicaea...."Concerning the departing, the ancient canonical law is still to be maintained, to wit, that, if any man be at the point of death, he must not be deprived of the last and most indispensable Viaticum." (Canon 13 [A.D. 325]).

Aphraates...."[O]f the sacrament of life, by which Christians [baptism], priests [in ordination], kings and prophets are made perfect; it illuminates darkness [in confirmation], anoints the sick, and by its secret sacrament restores penitents." (Treatises 23:3 [A.D. 345]).

6. Marriage:

St. Ignatius of Antioch, (A.D. 50-107)......"Speak to my sisters, that they love the Lord, and be satisfied with their husbands both in the flesh and spirit. In like manner also, exhort my brethren, in the name of Jesus Christ, that they love their wives, even as the Lord the Church. (Ephesians 5:25) If any one can continue in a state of purity, to the honour of Him who is Lord of the flesh, let him so remain without boasting. If he begins to boast, he is undone; and if he reckon himself greater than the bishop, he is ruined. But it becomes both men and women who marry, to form their union with the approval of the bishop, that their marriage may be according to God, and not after their own lust. Let all things be done to the honour of God. (1 Corinthians 10:31) [The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp Chapter 5. The duties of husbands and wives]

Tertullian, (A.D. 160-218),..... "How can we find words to describe the happiness of that marriage, which the Church joins together; and the oblation confirms; and the blessing seals; the angels report; the Father ratifies." [L. ii. Ad. Uxor. n.9, page 171;The Faith of Catholics, Volume 3, Page 237]

7. Holy Orders:

Ignatius of Antioch....."Now, therefore, it has been my privilege to see you in the person of your God-inspired bishop, Damas; and in the persons of your worthy presbyters, Bassus and Apollonius; and my fellow-servant, the deacon, Zotion. What a delight is his company! For he is subject to the bishop as to the grace of God, and to the presbytery as to the law of Jesus Christ." (Letter to the Magnesians 2 [A.D. 110]).

Clement of Alexandria....."Even here in the Church the gradations of bishops, presbyters, and deacons happen to be imitations, in my opinion, of the angelic glory and of that arrangement which, the scriptures say, awaits those who have followed in the footsteps of the apostles and who have lived in complete righteousness according to the gospel." (Miscellanies 6:13:107:2 [A.D. 208]).

Council of Nicaea I......"It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]. And this also has been made known, that certain deacons now touch the Eucharist even before the bishops. Let all such practices be utterly done away, and let the deacons remain within their own bounds, knowing that they are the ministers of the bishop and the inferiors of the presbyters. Let them receive the Eucharist according to their order, after the presbyters, and let either the bishop or the presbyter administer to them." (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).

Interestingly enough, it was my own study of the same Fathers and Early Church history which convinced me that the Catholic Church, for all its good points, is not what it claims to be.

Hmmm..... Interestingly enough Albion, could it be that your studies excluded the writings of the above Early Church Fathers?
 
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Albion

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Well.....Let's see.

Cyprian of Carthage: (Epistulae 59 (55), 14, [256 A.D.]).

"Would heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come."

Well, THAT certainly does not rebut what I wrote and you quoted. And my quick survey of the other quotations you gave me shows that these are not about the topics/beliefs I mentioned, either.
 
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