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There's no fear in love (1 John 4:18). Love is the norm by which we must act, and by which we'll be judged. And that's a very, very good and desevering and worthwhile norm- and obligation. Love overcomes sin, love is holiness, love is the image of God that we're to be transformed into.
I would also say love is sacrificial which people forget. It requires we put others on the same level and even above us or putting aside our own ambitions for God. But it can also mean rebuking a brother in love if they sin. This is trrue love in that you are caring to save their soul.
First, I hope that I am in the right place, that this is a debate forum that allows for non-Christians. If I'm in the wrong place, please forgive and simply move my post. Thanks.
This is not a plug to change your mind. I'm fine with you believing as you wish. However, since you bring up the Law of Moses, this is how Rabbi Hillel (who lived about 30 years before Jesus) sums it up: "What is hateful to you, don't do to others. This is the WHOLE Torah. All the rest is commentary. Now go study." All the laws of the Torah can be grouped into two categories: "Love God with all your heart, soul, and strength," and "love your neighbor as yourself."
I realize that for you, nothing short of perfection is good enough. But it's different for me. It's not about being perfect. It's about aspiring to be perfect. It's about REPENTING when you stumble. Proverbs 24:16 "For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity."
This is confusing to me too. To obey God means to do good works.
I hope I am in the right forum. I'm assuming this is the debate forum in which non-Christians are allowed?
I know you mean well, but you are way overgeneralizing. I can assure you, I've dated many Christian men, and all of them but one have pushed me for sex. Conversely, I'm NOT a Christian, and I don't sleep around. I'm divorced, and although I think men are wonderful, I'm voluntarily celibate.
Hmmmm, that's not what I've found among my secular friends. It's more like they see our instincts as NEUTRAL, that these instincts become "good" only when we use them in ways that are helpful, and they become "bad" when they harm others.
Pardon me for kind of butting into a Christian versus Christian argument, but to those of us on the outside, it seems that anyone who believes Jesus is the Messiah who died for your sins is a Christian. Thus, Protestants (Baptists, Methodists, Non-denominational, etc.), Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Nestorians, etc. are all just different Christian groups.
LOL yeah. I joke with my Catholic friends about which group has the most guilt complex, Catholics or Jews?
Your in the right place and your welcome.
It does not mean Christians do not sin as we are all sinners and to say that sin is not in us is to lie. This means that by our new nature in Christ sin becomes like an inflection in our bodies that we want to get out. Like a thorn is our side that we keep having to get out.
Yes and Christ also states this. But that does not do away with the law. Its just telling us that this sums up what the law is really about. Just living with others makes life moral. Without people there is no morality.
Yes I agree.
Yes the fruits of the spirit.
No I don't disagree. You said it well.Anyhow, if you disagree, I'm fine with that. There will always be disagreement between humans as long as we have separate brains.
I guess it depends on the group and even non Christians can have Christian like belief. For example the idea that companionship and sex is a natural human desire and instinct.
Yes that is the gospel and it can be heard on the streets, in the hospitals, in war or a chance encounter that God is leading us to. But this is different to Gods church the institution that holds His congregation. They have to be in unity. There is not many different churches or interpretations of Gods truth. There is only one.
Theres no one like the Catholics for spreading Catholic guilt.LOL yeah. I joke with my Catholic friends about which group has the most guilt complex, Catholics or Jews?
Great question. I would say that the worlds ideologies on morality do not offer internal transformation but rely on external moral pressure. People follow secular laws because they don't want to go to jail, while we follow God's commands because we are being transformed into Christs likeness. Secular laws are also more about the mutual protection of society.
I do think there is a degree of transdormation of mind and heart with ideas in the world about life and meaning and happiness. Look at the mystical religions where true enlightenment comes with a transformation from one of temporal concerns to one of being one with the universe. Which is bacially a fundemental aspect of all beliefs in being situated beyond the material world.
Nice to me you as well, Open Heart. I think you've arrived at the correct destination for discussion---I say 'discussion' because from an academic viewpoint, that is what I prefer over what other's define as 'debate.'
My apologies if it sounds like I'm generalizing. It might seem that way if you're not familiar with all I've written on CF over the years. As for Christian men, they shouldn't be pushing you for sex and it's not 'ok' if they do, even if it is the case we live in a society that has 'consumerized' the sexual response among men, encouraging it and inflaming it in profligate ways.
I think it all boils down to Leviticus 19:18 וְאָהַבְתָּ לְרֵעֲךָ כָּמוֹךָ V'ahavta l'reiacha kamocha "Love your neighbor as yourself." The question is, who is my neighbor. Rei’a is broader than just someone who lives next door. I wont' lie to you. There are some Jewish Rabbis who say that this verse is referring to the Jewish people. But there are also Rabbis who say that this refers to all of humanity. Their argument is based on the fact that this word, Rei'a, is used elsewhere in the Torah where it clearly is NOT referring to the Israelites.
Not to worry. We are both getting to know each other.
I think that's wonderful!
And you!
Good example. The desire for sex is an instinct. When part of a committed relationship (marriage) it is sacred and wonderful. It only becomes "bad" when done at the wrong time, or the wrong place, or in the wrong way, or with the wrong person.
I agree that this is regrettable. The problem here is not that society in general thinks it's okay to cause harm. The problem is that society is not sufficiently sensitive to the harm that flitting around sexually does. People don't want to see how a long succession of partners creates the kind of instability that emotionally harms children. They don't want to face how frequent broken hearts lead to jadedness. Casual sex leaves a lot of damage in its wake.
Pfft. The few people who actually say that are simply morons. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to look around and see that many people who want sex don't get sex. Maybe they are extraordinarily ugly. Maybe they are so socially awkward that they have difficulty forming relationships. Maybe they have a serious disability that interferes. You get the idea. No one has a "right" to sex.
You must be talking about somewhere outside the US.
I don't see how that is any different than what Judaism asks. Or Islam. Or even ethical atheism.
You've clearly never had to deal with a Jewish mother.
I'm wondering how you would test this to see if it were true. What are some things I can see with my own eyes that would differentiate Christians from non-Christians, visible, tangible things that would prove that "receiving Jesus into your heart" leads to some sort of transformation, making you different from everyone else?
Absolutely. It is, in fact, encouraged as a way of backing up your assertions with actual evidence. On the other hand, ust posting the link will not do without some commentary of your own explaining how it supports your argument.
Keep in mind that Steve is not arguing Christian theology as such--a subject about which he knows little or nothing. He is arguing the innate superiority of Western Anglo-Protestant culture, and why right-wing Evangelical Protestant sexual morality should be imposed by law on the non-Christian citizens of a secular state.
Yes, I think I generally empathize with what you're sharing here and reflecting upon from various Jewish rabbis.
Don't worry about it. I understand you.
And I value your academic work you've done, and it sounds like you and I have some similarity in our respective research approaches.
I'm sure you have some interesting points to make, then, being that you're an informed reflector.
The basis of Christianity is love, anchored in the God-who-is-love and who demonstrated that love in no uncertain terms in human flesh. And love, simply, does not murder, does not commit adultery, steal, harm ones neighbor, offend God, etc. "Love fulfills the law", IOW.
Yes this relates to
I would expect nothing less.
I'm deeply, deeply appreciative of the fact that you have taken the time to read all these books. I too have read a great deal about other religions, including Christianity. I believe with all my heart that being a better neighbor begins with listening to others and understanding them.
Do you think Jesus really meant this literally? When I read the gospels, I thought it striking just how often Jesus employed hyperbole to make a point.
