Born again morality as opposed to the worlds morality.

[Hans Blaster]

Ok well its essential to be born again. You could say its like a God conscience or consciousness. I think our conscience and Gods spirit are linked. Except its a particular kind of conscience and consciousness that is enlightened by Gods spirit. Like having Christ sitting on your shoulder reminding you of His teachings.

You can't get away from it. If you are tempted then theres an automatic voice bring up Gods word and a reminder of how weak you are in combating your sinful nature and temptations. So you allow Gods spirit to dwell in you which overcomes those temptations and weakness. Thats why Paul says "its no longer I that lives but Christ who lives in men". Which is the holy spirit.

THat's exactly why I described your claim about morality in the OP the way I did the first time as not actually about morality, but a supernatural claim.

Yes, I was just trying to explain the difference. You will obviously have your own basis for morality be it human wellbeing, humanism, life principles, social norms or subjective preferences and feelings.

Ok whatever you call that which is not a religious basis for morality. So I guess the metaphysical basis. Christians believe in something beyond the material world as the basis. The non religious base morality in something of this world, materialism, human wellbeing, naturalism.

Why, I think you will find behind any moral system theres a degree of sacrifice. It would not be a moral law that we had to live up to even when we did not feel like it or preferred to act differently.

Like blokes lol. They have to control their desires and lusts. Though some don't and society allows them that right to a degree. But we know that ultimately it calls for putting aside those desires for a higher moral value that respects and is self controlled.

Anything of great value comes with sacrifice of something. It is a core principle of Christianity. Even suffering for doing good above your own desires. This brings a greater value to life. We know this without Christianity. If someone wants to be successful in something they sacrifice the parties for the study ect.

Actually I think you were trying to use what you think mine is and not actually what it is.

Lol thats one way to look at it. But maybe your calling them thought crimes because thats how you see it. What if Christ and Christians see it differently.

I actually see it as good psychology. Any action usually begins in the hear and mind. So Christ is highlighting that you are what you make yourself within. If you are always plugging into lust them your going to act on it. Your already doing it in your heart which will inevitably make you that person whether you act on it or not.

It depends on how this is rejected. If someone for example expresses a Christian moral, say for marriage and then they lose their job over this then that is unfair. This is what is happening because modern social norms now clash with Christian morals.

Whereas in a supposed multicultural and relativistic society all beliefs and moral codes should be tolerated. Which in reality is impossible.

When we think of morality traditionally we have always associated this with religion and the gods. The moral laws that come from this may vary and will include behaviours as sin that non religious society would not.

But thats no different to society at large. Not everyone will have the same standards or include the same behaviours as immoral or moral. They are all basically trying to get at the same thing.

Often the behaviours or thinking that you may not think is sin like lust in the heart is based on good reasons associated with the action. So its going back to the root cause, the origin of where the immoral behaviour comes from. So its not really anything that we all know that the state of the heart and mind is what usually leads to the action.

I aint discussing all of this with you. Certainly not today.

Yes I know they all have the same Christain core beliefs. Though I think some deny the divinity of Christ like Mormons and JW I think. But the theory if you can call it that is the New Testament. The Gospels and Christs teachings.

Again, you write this as if there is a set of "Christian" beliefs and that some Christian grous don't fit them all. (I'd suggest you go back and reacquaint yourself with set theory.) Good day, sir.

 

[stevevw]

THat's exactly why I described your claim about morality in the OP the way I did the first time as not actually about morality, but a supernatural claim.

But how does that differ from any religions claim to a moral lawgiver which is also appealing to the supernatural. I think thats the point that there are different bases for morality which may be secular and material or naturalistic and those that are transcedent and supernatural. But they are all getting at morality.

Christians are just saying theres a supernatural component that material morality lacks. It sort of makes sense in that whatever morality is it exists in the transcedent and beyond scientific and naturalistic explanations.

I aint discussing all of this with you. Certainly not today.

Lol I know its a rabbit hole. I don't even want to go down there. But its a necessary decent into chaos to sort of whats going on when it comes to morality. Heck theres a whole library of philosophy and epistemology on morality. Say those 3 word fast 10 times lol.

Again, you write this as if there is a set of "Christian" beliefs and that some Christian grous don't fit them all. (I'd suggest you go back and reacquaint yourself with set theory.) Good day, sir.

I am very familiar with Set Theory from studying the Mandelbrot set which is probably the ultimate Set.

But I am not sure how you are applying this as sets can be just about anything. I am talking about an exclusive set much like the Madelbrot set that cannot deviate outside the core set numbers.

These are the core beliefs like the hypostatic union. There are denominations in the past like Nestorianism and like today with JW and Mormons who deny the hypostatic union. That makes them non Christian despite calling themselves Christian. There are other core beliefs that if not believed disqualifies them as being Christian.

This would be like numbers that don't fall within the Madelbrot set. They belong perhaps to another set like maybe those who defy Gods word.

Heck there are some churches who support abortion and call themselves Christians. Just because a church calls itself Christian doesn't mean they are Christians. Christ spoke about this that there would be many Christian lookalikes which is the wolves in sheep clothing he mentions.

It would be like a Communist supporting capitalism. They don't belong to the same exclusive set which is upholding the core tenents that make them Christians.

But of course to the moral relativists this is all a storm in a tea cup because there is no moral truth and all religions are fighting over their subjective beliefs about gods and morality.

Which belongs to another Set which is humans ability to use religious belief as a socially created or evolved mechanism to maintain order and survival. Which itself exists within another set which is, well we are going down that rabbithole again lol.

 

[Hoping2]

Ok so now I am clarifying as people take this the wrong way.

Huh ?

I am speaking about maturity. About the ability to recognise sin and the thinking that goes with leading to falling short. Its a scientific fact that youths brains are not developed enough to even understand morality let alone sophiosticated nuances as to what is sin or not. An older wise man with much of lifes experience will see morality or be aware of what exactly is sin or not than a youth without that life experience.

It is written that no man, (or youth), will be tempted above what they are capable of handling, in 1 Cor 10:13.
Maturity has no bearing on the conversation.

For example an older male is over the hormonal explosion of puberty and young lust that comes as a result. They are settled, married and those influences have long lost their potency. To say that no Christian young man will engage in masturbation and that if they do they are no longer saved is unreal.

I will stick with 1 Cor 10:13..." There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
A youth has the same ability to resist temptation as any older man.

They will give into this temptation and they have to learn to deny the desires of the flesh. But it comes much easier for someone who is older and wiser and not as influenced by the power of hormonal development of youth.

Myself, I don't believe God will allow the devil to use "hormones" to defeat His Spirit in the repentant.

But not just that young people will see some things that older people. We know this because surveys show a generational difference in what is regarded as sin. So in some cases we don't even agree on what is sin let alone be able to say that Christians don't commit sin.

I give the Holy Ghost more credit than that.

Yes exactly. So they may sin occassionally or be made aware of a sin they have committed and they are to repent and hand that over. If they don't then as Paul says they are practiucing sin. They are repeating the sin and holding onto to it for some reason.

You are again contradicting yourself.
"Yes exactly" BUT..." ???

There is a big difference between becoming aware that one has sinned and repenting of it and holding on and not. One cultivates a heart that is sinful. The other is transforming the heart to be more Christlike.

No man sins without the knowledge that it is sin.
God has given everyone a conscience to determine right from wrong.
Adam opened that door in Eden, at the tree of good and evil.

Its not expected. This is the assumption that because people say that a Christian can still sin that this opens the floodgates to ongoing sin.

I agree, as many so-called churches are founded on their accommodations for sin.

It doesn't because it all depends on what you do with that sin.

More self-contradiction...
"Its not expected"...BUT...?

If you keep handing it over to God then you will have less and less sin. The floodgates will not open because your practicing getting rid of sin. Thats the attitude and disposition that we get rid of sin and keep doing so.

One real turn from sin (repentance from sin) will end sin.

Yes and good fruit will come from someone who is handing sin to God so that He can transofrm them to produce good fruit. Those who practice sinning and hold onto sin will inevitably produce bad fruits because in holding one sin it turns into two and three and more until you become that sin. Rather than letting go of sin to become like Christ.

Sinners are children of the devil.
It is written..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:8-10)
One sin a week or fifty, the fruit manifests the "parent".

I agree. But theres a difference between occassional sin not practiced but as part of becoming aware of the deeper ways sin can happen to practicing sin which is really cultivating bad fruit.

I do not agree at all.
Apple seeds cannot bring forth watermelons.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars or thieves.

 

[partinobodycular]

Myself, I don't believe God will allow the devil to use "hormones" to defeat His Spirit in the repentant.

That must be why I'm without sin... who knew

 

[Hoping2]

That must be why I'm without sin... who knew

May God be glorified !

 

[stevevw]

Huh ?

It is written that no man, (or youth), will be tempted above what they are capable of handling, in 1 Cor 10:13.
Maturity has no bearing on the conversation.

I know this is the truth. Christ was able to resist every temptation and had no sin in Him. But I am speaking realistically. Christ even alluded to this when He said 'those without sin can throw the first stone'. Or 'to take the beam out of your own eye before trying to remove the spec from your brothers eye'.

I just find it unreal that we could have a 1,000 young male Christians surveyed and that they would all deny any lustful thoughts at a time when lustful thoughts are in full swing. That there is a sharp line between sin and not sinning in this regard even a fledging thought.

Most people would be very suspicious of the results considering it does not reflect the reality. And to say that if any admitted to such fletting thoughts that they are cancelled as Christians seems wrong.

I will stick with 1 Cor 10:13..." There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
A youth has the same ability to resist temptation as any older man.

Yep but we don't. So I guess theres a lot of good Christians who are not really Christians.

Paul implies many times that Christians may still sin. He is continuously reminding people about the struggle with sin. If being born again rid ourselves of the inclination to sin then Paul would not have to keep going on about the struggle.

Paul summed up this struggle when he wrote: “I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?” (Romans 7:22-24).

Paul says here that when we sin, we need not fear that we are condemned by God, that there is no more justification and grace. His relationship with us is not broken unless or until we deliberately and irrevocably sever it.

This means that if we have repented and come under grace and then slip up and sin, we are still under grace and do not immediately return to being under the penalty of the law. Though continuing to struggle with committing sin as Paul did, we are not condemned with each new sin. Rather, as Paul says, there remains “no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus” (verse 1). With every sin and subsequent repentance a Christian does not repeatedly drift back and forth between being under death and under grace. We remain under grace, with “no condemnation,” as God still accepts Christ’s sacrifice as our atonement.

Yet Paul qualifies this in Romans 8 by explaining that this remains so only if we continue in the process of living according to the Holy Spirit in following God’s law. That means continuing to repent, confessing our sins to God (1 John 1:9), seeking forgiveness and restoration, and striving with God’s help to obey Him. Otherwise, through neglect leading to willful sin and rejection of God, we would return to being under the law’s penalty of death—spurning Christ’s sacrifice and insulting the Spirit of grace, from which there is no return to repentance (Hebrews 2:1-3; Hebrews 6:4-7; Hebrews 10:26-31; see also “Can Those God Has Forgiven Reject His Grace?”).

https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-study-aids/what-does-bible-teach-about-grace/what-does-bible-teach-about-grace-1

Here are some verses that imply Christians will still sin sometimes. Colossians 3:12–13
12 dPut on then, as eGod’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, fcompassionate hearts, gkindness, hhumility, meekness, and patience, 13 hbearing with one another and, iif one has a complaint against another, gforgiving each other; gas the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

To forgive each other the wrongs that they have done against us like God forgives Christians. This implies that we will be wrongs by other Christians in our relationships with them and that we are to forgive them their wrongs as God forgives us our wrongs.
Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

What, are there other sins that we don't deliberately do that we become aware of. Like how I became aware that I was breaching copy right (which is stealing) because I did not fully realise the implications of playing a copied tape I found in my car.

I was falling short of Gods standard but I did not realise it at that time. Did that make it not a sin. It was still stealing. Maybe I should have known. But certainly once I realised the sin it was not deliberately committed again. If I did then I was deliberately sinning.

But our fallen nature makes us prone to sinning in ways we don't even realise until God taps us on the shoulder. But its still falling short. We will never have that knowledge until Christs returns where we can see everything and never fall short.

1 John 3:4-11
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

Why didn't John just say 'Everyone who sins', full stop is being lawless. Why qualify this with 'practicing sin'.

Matthew 7: 3-5
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...

Like I said assuming these brothers are Christians or sometimes Christians then this implies that Christians still sin that we will rebuke them for sin. But forst we must ensure that we are without the sin we want to rebuke and judge others for.

Then there is the Prodigal Son. This is about a person who was already saved and had inherited Gods Kingdom but decided to go out into the world as he thought better, How he learnt a lesson and came back to his father which represented God. This wasn't about a evil or unsaved son but one already saved.

Myself, I don't believe God will allow the devil to use "hormones" to defeat His Spirit in the repentant.

Thats right. With treatment and therapy the person can overcome these disorders. In that way it may not be an overnight miracle but a miracle nonetheless. If you were to see the person on day one of salvation to say day 1,000 or 10,000 you will see a completely different person as though a miracle had occurred.

I give the Holy Ghost more credit than that.

So do I. God works in mysterious ways sometimes. At the end of the day God only works for good. As Christ said that satan will not worl against himself in casting demons out. If a person becomes more Christlike in the end then they have Christ in their hearts because you cannot be Christlike without Christ in your heart. As Paul says, you can tell by the fruits of the spirit.

You are again contradicting yourself.
"Yes exactly" BUT..." ???

But there is a 'but' lol.

No man sins without the knowledge that it is sin.

Our fallen nature is sin. Just being fallen and having a carnal nature puts us in a sinful state. That we experience puberty and the rush of hormones that sexualise our brains puts us in a fallen state as there will be no puberty, sexual desires and hormones in the afterlife. We won't achieve that heavenly state until we are resurrected in Christ.

We only partly known but then we will be fully known.

God has given everyone a conscience to determine right from wrong.
Adam opened that door in Eden, at the tree of good and evil.

Yes but as you know there is debate over what is actually right and wrong sometimes. Its not so much that the morals are different. But that the facts around the morals are different. So what people believed 100 years ago due to a lack of knowledge today we think immoral and visa versa. People can also feel guilty when they have done nothing wrong due to disorders or false knowledge.

But generally I agree. If your conscience is telling you that its a sin then its a sin. Err on the side of caustion and treat it like a sin. Because the first step to practicing sin is to rationalise sin as not sin. But that is different to falling short and not being aware of our fallen nature in less obvious ways. Like the cpyright situation. I honestly did not think anything wrong with playing the tape. There was no guilt or pang of conscience. But it came later. So it wasn't as if I was purposely sinning and when I was made aware I treated it like sin and rid myself of this. It also gave me a deeper insight into our fallen nature and how we can not be aware of smaller ways we can fall short.

I mean teachnically most Christians are falling short today because if they truely followed Christs teachings then they would be relatively poor even at risk of homelessness, be dedicating the majority of their time to helping the needy, would not seek a career apart from helping people, be at church every Sunday, and we should see most being persecuted if not martryed in this anti Christ day and age.

But we don't. So perhaps you are right in that we could do better and many have become complacent.

I agree, as many so-called churches are founded on their accommodations for sin.

Yes I did not see this answer but just agreed.

More self-contradiction...
"Its not expected"...BUT...?

Once again 'but there is a but' lol. Its not a but to excuse sin but its a but.

One real turn from sin (repentance from sin) will end sin.

Of course. Once you repent you are acknowledging it as sin and that you must cease that sin. Are you poor. Have you given all your money to help the needy. Because that is what Christ ultimately asks. In fact if a person is not being persecuted then they are not living like Christ. They are storing up riches on earth and not in heaven. They are not giving Christ water when he was thirsty.

Sinners are children of the devil.

Of course. But a Christian who may become aware of a sin and hands it over to God and becomes more Christlike is not of the devil. Christ says that anyone who is getting the devil out is not of the devit but of Christ. Getting sin out are the fruits of Christ.

It is written..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:8-10)
One sin a week or fifty, the fruit manifests the "parent".

I do not agree at all.
Apple seeds cannot bring forth watermelons.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars or thieves.

But apple or watermelon seed can still produce a beautfil fruit even if it may have a couple of imperfections. The next crop can weed out those imperfections. God is the potter and we are the clay. A clay vase doesn't just pop into existence as a perfect vase on the turning wheel. It needs to be molding and shaped and all the imperfections taken out. As it is modelled it looks more and more like a perfect piece.

Anyway how do you explain the majority of Christians who agree that Christians can still sin. Are they all wrong and only a select few hold the truth.

Like I said church fathers like Irenaeus of Lyons, Augustine of Hippo, Ignatius of Antioch, Tertullian, Cyprian of Carthage, Pacian of Barcelona and Jerome to name a few all said that its possible that Christians still can sin. They admit that they have sinned and these are regarded as Christians.

What the Early Church Believed: Mortal Sin

As these quotes from the early Christians proves, the concept of mortal sin has been an integral part of the Christian message since the very beginning.

www.catholic.com

 

[Hans Blaster]

But how does that differ from any religions claim to a moral lawgiver which is also appealing to the supernatural. I think thats the point that there are different bases for morality which may be secular and material or naturalistic and those that are transcedent and supernatural. But they are all getting at morality.

Christians are just saying theres a supernatural component that material morality lacks. It sort of makes sense in that whatever morality is it exists in the transcedent and beyond scientific and naturalistic explanations.

A supernatural claim of assistance in behaving better IS NOT A MORAL SYSTEM.

Lol I know its a rabbit hole. I don't even want to go down there. But its a necessary decent into chaos to sort of whats going on when it comes to morality. Heck theres a whole library of philosophy and epistemology on morality. Say those 3 word fast 10 times lol.

I would not want to accidentally summon a philosopher.

I am very familiar with Set Theory from studying the Mandelbrot set which is probably the ultimate Set.

But I am not sure how you are applying this as sets can be just about anything. I am talking about an exclusive set much like the Madelbrot set that cannot deviate outside the core set numbers.

These are the core beliefs like the hypostatic union. There are denominations in the past like Nestorianism and like today with JW and Mormons who deny the hypostatic union. That makes them non Christian despite calling themselves Christian. There are other core beliefs that if not believed disqualifies them as being Christian.

This would be like numbers that don't fall within the Madelbrot set. They belong perhaps to another set like maybe those who defy Gods word.

Heck there are some churches who support abortion and call themselves Christians. Just because a church calls itself Christian doesn't mean they are Christians. Christ spoke about this that there would be many Christian lookalikes which is the wolves in sheep clothing he mentions.

It would be like a Communist supporting capitalism. They don't belong to the same exclusive set which is upholding the core tenents that make them Christians.

But of course to the moral relativists this is all a storm in a tea cup because there is no moral truth and all religions are fighting over their subjective beliefs about gods and morality.

Which belongs to another Set which is humans ability to use religious belief as a socially created or evolved mechanism to maintain order and survival. Which itself exists within another set which is, well we are going down that rabbithole again lol.

 

[stevevw]

A supernatural claim of assistance in behaving better IS NOT A MORAL SYSTEM.

So God is not a moral lawgiver. Then why is Christian belief regarded as a moral way of life. The teachings of Christ are about morality.

I mean what is the difference between say grounding morality in human wellbeing and that becomes the external guide for morals. Its still a sort of metaphysical basis for morality that is assisting in guiding moral behaviour. All morality will have some sort of metaphysical basis that guides and assists.

I would not want to accidentally summon a philosopher.

Thats going to be a bit hard considering the very nature of the thread is philosophical.

 

[Hoping2]

I know this is the truth. Christ was able to resist every temptation and had no sin in Him. But I am speaking realistically.

I will not see it as you do.
You are posing that "realistic" is different from "truth".

Christ even alluded to this when He said 'those without sin can throw the first stone'. Or 'to take the beam out of your own eye before trying to remove the spec from your brothers eye'.

Jesus was speaking to non-born again people, who had no choice but to walk in and after the "flesh".

I just find it unreal that we could have a 1,000 young male Christians surveyed and that they would all deny any lustful thoughts at a time when lustful thoughts are in full swing. That there is a sharp line between sin and not sinning in this regard even a fledging thought.

As nobody is tempted above what they can handle, (1 Cor 10:13), none of your 1000 was over-tempted.

Most people would be very suspicious of the results considering it does not reflect the reality. And to say that if any admitted to such fletting thoughts that they are cancelled as Christians seems wrong.

You already admitted that your "reality" is not the "truth".
The truth Jesus said could make us free from sin, (John 8:32-34), also counters your POV,

Yep but we don't. So I guess there's a lot of good Christians who are not really Christians.

You would guess wrong.
Some do rely on God to keep them free from temptations and lusts from their pasts.

Paul implies many times that Christians may still sin. He is continuously reminding people about the struggle with sin. If being born again rid ourselves of the inclination to sin then Paul would not have to keep going on about the struggle.

Paul confronts those who give in to the past's enticements, and forsake the truth that can set them free.
Some do endure faithfully until the end.

Paul summed up this struggle when he wrote: “I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?” (Romans 7:22-24).

Paul also cites his being made free from that law of sin by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus; in Rom 8:2.
And, he had already cited how he had been freed from his former life; in Rom 6:6.

Paul says here that when we sin, we need not fear that we are condemned by God, that there is no more justification and grace. His relationship with us is not broken unless or until we deliberately and irrevocably sever it.

You will not find that in God's word.
Sinners have no relationship with God.
It is written..." And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

This means that if we have repented and come under grace and then slip up and sin, we are still under grace and do not immediately return to being under the penalty of the law. Though continuing to struggle with committing sin as Paul did, we are not condemned with each new sin. Rather, as Paul says, there remains “no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus” (verse 1). With every sin and subsequent repentance a Christian does not repeatedly drift back and forth between being under death and under grace. We remain under grace, with “no condemnation,” as God still accepts Christ’s sacrifice as our atonement.

"Slipping up" and sinning show there was no original repentance from sin.
They had never been in a condition free from condemnation.

Yet Paul qualifies this in Romans 8 by explaining that this remains so only if we continue in the process of living according to the Holy Spirit in following God’s law. That means continuing to repent, confessing our sins to God (1 John 1:9), seeking forgiveness and restoration, and striving with God’s help to obey Him. Otherwise, through neglect leading to willful sin and rejection of God, we would return to being under the law’s penalty of death—spurning Christ’s sacrifice and insulting the Spirit of grace, from which there is no return to repentance (Hebrews 2:1-3; Hebrews 6:4-7; Hebrews 10:26-31; see also “Can Those God Has Forgiven Reject His Grace?”).

https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-study-aids/what-does-bible-teach-about-grace/what-does-bible-teach-about-grace-1

Continual repenting shows nothing but a lack of repentance.

Here are some verses that imply Christians will still sin sometimes. Colossians 3:12–13
12 dPut on then, as eGod’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, fcompassionate hearts, gkindness, hhumility, meekness, and patience, 13 hbearing with one another and, iif one has a complaint against another, gforgiving each other; gas the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

I see forgiveness of those who sin against us.

To forgive each other the wrongs that they have done against us like God forgives Christians. This implies that we will be wrongs by other Christians in our relationships with them and that we are to forgive them their wrongs as God forgives us our wrongs.
Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Continued disobedience will bring destruction.

What, are there other sins that we don't deliberately do that we become aware of. Like how I became aware that I was breaching copy right (which is stealing) because I did not fully realise the implications of playing a copied tape I found in my car.

Were you tempted to play an illegally gotten tape ?
Enticed to offend God ?
Lured by a lust to do evil before playing the tape ?
According to James 1:14-15, all three of those elements were necessary for something to be a sin.
All sin is done on purpose.

I was falling short of Gods standard but I did not realise it at that time. Did that make it not a sin. It was still stealing. Maybe I should have known. But certainly once I realised the sin it was not deliberately committed again. If I did then I was deliberately sinning.

If it wasn't evil to your conscience when you did it, it was not sinful.

But our fallen nature makes us prone to sinning in ways we don't even realise until God taps us on the shoulder. But its still falling short. We will never have that knowledge until Christs returns where we can see everything and never fall short.

Isn't it a good thing that the entirety of the old man, including its nature, was destroyed before you were born again ?
As Paul writes..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

1 John 3:4-11
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
Why didn't John just say 'Everyone who sins', full stop is being lawless. Why qualify this with 'practicing sin'.

The word "practice" was introduced by the accommodators of sin, and is a devilish misinterpretation of God's word.
The KJV says.."Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6)

Matthew 7: 3-5
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...
Like I said assuming these brothers are Christians or sometimes Christians then this implies that Christians still sin that we will rebuke them for sin. But forst we must ensure that we are without the sin we want to rebuke and judge others for.

Jesus never spoke to a Christian, who had crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), during his time on earth.
His words were directed at men in the flesh.

Then there is the Prodigal Son. This is about a person who was already saved and had inherited Gods Kingdom but decided to go out into the world as he thought better, How he learnt a lesson and came back to his father which represented God. This wasn't about a evil or unsaved son but one already saved.

Father is quick to welcome errant folks into the family, but continued disobedience alienates them.
Your assignment of Christendom on them is a nonstarter.

Thats right. With treatment and therapy the person can overcome these disorders.

Or, by the grace of God.

In that way it may not be an overnight miracle but a miracle nonetheless. If you were to see the person on day one of salvation to say day 1,000 or 10,000 you will see a completely different person as though a miracle had occurred.

The miracle happens on the first day.

So do I.

It doesn't seem like that.

God works in mysterious ways sometimes. At the end of the day God only works for good. As Christ said that satan will not worl against himself in casting demons out. If a person becomes more Christlike in the end then they have Christ in their hearts because you cannot be Christlike without Christ in your heart. As Paul says, you can tell by the fruits of the spirit.

What is sin showing ?
The fruit of the devil.

But there is a 'but' lol.

No, there isn't.

Our fallen nature is sin. Just being fallen and having a carnal nature puts us in a sinful state. That we experience puberty and the rush of hormones that sexualise our brains puts us in a fallen state as there will be no puberty, sexual desires and hormones in the afterlife. We won't achieve that heavenly state until we are resurrected in Christ.

Our fallen nature was crucified with Christ.
We are new creatures now, with the mind of Christ...thanks be to God.

But apple or watermelon seed can still produce a beautfil fruit even if it may have a couple of imperfections. The next crop can weed out those imperfections. God is the potter and we are the clay. A clay vase doesn't just pop into existence as a perfect vase on the turning wheel. It needs to be molding and shaped and all the imperfections taken out. As it is modelled it looks more and more like a perfect piece.

An apple seed will never bear watermelons.
God's seed will never bear liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.

Anyway how do you explain the majority of Christians who agree that Christians can still sin. Are they all wrong and only a select few hold the truth.

They went out from us but were not of us...said John. (1 John 2:19)
The truth can free us from sin, (John 8:32-34), but the "large majority" are not free.
The servants of sin don't want to be free.

 

[Hans Blaster]

So God is not a moral lawgiver. Then why is Christian belief regarded as a moral way of life. The teachings of Christ are about morality.

I mean what is the difference between say grounding morality in human wellbeing and that becomes the external guide for morals. Its still a sort of metaphysical basis for morality that is assisting in guiding moral behaviour. All morality will have some sort of metaphysical basis that guides and assists.

I don't think you are understanding my point.

Thats going to be a bit hard considering the very nature of the thread is philosophical.

It's tricky, but worth it.

 

[stevevw]

I will not see it as you do.
You are posing that "realistic" is different from "truth".

Ok I probably need to clarify some things. First I am not disputing the truth that as Christians we can potentially be like Christ. He was fully human like us but resisted 100% of the time. All Christians trusting God in Christ can achieve this. We are told as you said no temption will be too great that God will provide a way out of. Thats a biblical truth of Gods word.

What I mean by realistic is that 100% of Christians do not anywhere near achieve 100% sinless. Thats not to make a cop out but to be realistic. All the church fathers, the absolute vast majority of biblical scholars all agree that CHristians can still sin.

Third I don't believe a Christian who acknowledges they may have occassionally sinned means they are not a Christian. Thats silly as when they become Christlike were they not a Christian before they become Christlike. They have to be a Christian to become Christlike. But they were not Christlike along the way.

Anyway its a side issue as to Christian morality for the purposes of comparing this to worldly ideas of morality. As far as the transformation of the heart and mind towards being Christlike. Christians have a mind after Christ full stop. If they happen to sin they get up and they keep walking towards Jesus. Not the other way. Christ is their anchor and rock.

Jesus was speaking to non-born again people, who had no choice but to walk in and after the "flesh".

Taking the beam out of ones own eye to remove the speck from your brothers eye was about Christians. What was the Christian trying to remove but the sin in his brother. Christ said make sure you have removed that sin from yourself before you trying to judge and remove wrong from your brother.

Why would sinners be going around trying to remove sin from each other. If they were sinners don't you think Christ would have first said 'be saved first. Why would he bother rebuking unsaved people about removing sin. They can't because they are unsaved. That isn't even a question for them as they cannot remove sin without first being born again in Christ.

As nobody is tempted above what they can handle, (1 Cor 10:13), none of your 1000 was over-tempted.

Of course. If no temptation is too great then those Christians who have occassionally sinned did not fully trust and hand over to God that temptation. But in doing so for that occassional time doesn't suddenly make them not Christians.

They are rebuked like Paul says Christians in the church are rebuked and they get back to being even more like Christ and never repeating that sin. Thats why Paul clarified this when he says 'those who practice sin'. As opposed to those who sin full stop.

You already admitted that your "reality" is not the "truth".
The truth Jesus said could make us free from sin, (John 8:32-34), also counters your POV,

As I pointed out above you are assuming that by saying that the reality is that Christians can sometimes sin that this somehow negates the truth of Gods word that we saved or cannot potentially not ever sin. It just means that in reality Christians sin.

What I think your also doing is assuming that in saying Christians sin that this somehow opens a flood gate or is the sin as practicing sin all the sin and repeating the same sins. Its not. I qualified this. Its not the obvious sins, its not often but should be rare and rarer as time goes by and it is heading towards Christ and not away from Him. Big difference.

You would guess wrong.
Some do rely on God to keep them free from temptations and lusts from their pasts.

Ok so I think your making another assumption. That because I am saying Christians can sin sometimes that I am also saying that there are no Christians who may never sin. Which I am not. I am saying that there are Christians who sin. This is a fact.

Paul confronts those who give in to the past's enticements, and forsake the truth that can set them free.
Some do endure faithfully until the end.

Paul is talking about Christians within the Church who have sinned. He says to confront them with two brothers and then bring them before the church and if they still don't repent treat them like a pagan. They were not a pagan to begin with but a Christian within the church.

Matthew 18: 15-17
15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Paul also cites his being made free from that law of sin by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus; in Rom 8:2.
And, he had already cited how he had been freed from his former life; in Rom 6:6.

Yes that is correct. Why can't both be correct. He is obviously acknowledging that Christians can sin as above. There is a difference between as the Christian who is confront repents and doesn't do it again to the one who doesn't and is treated like a pagan.

You will not find that in God's word.
Sinners have no relationship with God.

But if when you siun you acknowledge this and take it to God isn't that the relationship which is ongoing. Thats the very definition. That you take all your burdons and weaknesses to God so He can help.

It is written..." And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

"Slipping up" and sinning show there was no original repentance from sin.
They had never been in a condition free from condemnation.

Continual repenting shows nothing but a lack of repentance.

I see forgiveness of those who sin against us.

Continued disobedience will bring destruction.

Were you tempted to play an illegally gotten tape ?
Enticed to offend God ?
Lured by a lust to do evil before playing the tape ?
According to James 1:14-15, all three of those elements were necessary for something to be a sin.
All sin is done on purpose.

If it wasn't evil to your conscience when you did it, it was not sinful.

Isn't it a good thing that the entirety of the old man, including its nature, was destroyed before you were born again ?
As Paul writes..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

The word "practice" was introduced by the accommodators of sin, and is a devilish misinterpretation of God's word.
The KJV says.."Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6)

Jesus never spoke to a Christian, who had crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), during his time on earth.
His words were directed at men in the flesh.

Father is quick to welcome errant folks into the family, but continued disobedience alienates them.
Your assignment of Christendom on them is a nonstarter.

Or, by the grace of God.

The miracle happens on the first day.

It doesn't seem like that.

What is sin showing ?
The fruit of the devil.

No, there isn't.

Our fallen nature was crucified with Christ.
We are new creatures now, with the mind of Christ...thanks be to God.

An apple seed will never bear watermelons.
God's seed will never bear liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.

They went out from us but were not of us...said John. (1 John 2:19)
The truth can free us from sin, (John 8:32-34), but the "large majority" are not free.
The servants of sin don't want to be free.

Actually I just started replying to the rest and realised that we are getting too deep into this and its getting nowhere. We obviously have a different take on this. But I will once again point ut that I am not denying that we can be like Christ. That God provides a way out of temptations if we trust him.

 

[stevevw]

I don't think you are understanding my point.

Actually I don't now. I thought it was something to do with saying that Christians are getting some sort of advantage which negatives their facalties and agency and they are somehow taken over like robots by Christ to behave morally. So it doesn't count as a moral system.

It's tricky, but worth it.

Why, you would not be able to say anything lol. You have already been engaging in philosophy haven't you.

 

[partinobodycular]

I will stick with 1 Cor 10:13..." There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

I do believe that you've misunderstood Paul's meaning in 1 Corinthians chapter 10, but far be it from an agnostic to try to teach Christianity to a Christian. I just wanted to let you know, that in my opinion, you've gotten it wrong.

 

[Hoping2]

Ok I probably need to clarify some things. First I am not disputing the truth that as Christians we can potentially be like Christ. He was fully human like us but resisted 100% of the time. All Christians trusting God in Christ can achieve this. We are told as you said no temption will be too great that God will provide a way out of. Thats a biblical truth of Gods word.

That's the spirit !

What I mean by realistic is that 100% of Christians do not anywhere near achieve 100% sinless. Thats not to make a cop out but to be realistic. All the church fathers, the absolute vast majority of biblical scholars all agree that CHristians can still sin.

"Can", and "do" commit sin, are worlds apart.
Everyone who has turned from the world and unto God "can" commit sin, but refuse to do so.
To commit sin would indicate a lack of a turn from the world.

Third I don't believe a Christian who acknowledges they may have occassionally sinned means they are not a Christian.

We differ on that point.
To say one is a Christian infers one's departure from loving this world and to loving God with all one's heat, soul, mind, and strength.
Sinners cannot show love with sinning.

Thats silly as when they become Christlike were they not a Christian before they become Christlike. They have to be a Christian to become Christlike. But they were not Christlike along the way.

It should occur at the same time.
Repentance and cleansing are the initial steps to Christianity.
Turned from sin, and clean of sin...how is that not Christlike ?
From that point on, we grow in grace and knowledge, but can't turn any farther, or be made any cleaner.

Anyway its a side issue as to Christian morality for the purposes of comparing this to worldly ideas of morality. As far as the transformation of the heart and mind towards being Christlike. Christians have a mind after Christ full stop. If they happen to sin they get up and they keep walking towards Jesus. Not the other way. Christ is their anchor and rock.

If they 'happen to sin', their minds were not "after Christ".
The Anchor and the Rock are not conquerable.

Taking the beam out of ones own eye to remove the speck from your brothers eye was about Christians. What was the Christian trying to remove but the sin in his brother. Christ said make sure you have removed that sin from yourself before you trying to judge and remove wrong from your brother.

There were no Christians until after Christ was raised from the grave.
Jesus' words were to the Jews.
They still serve as a warning for us though, as if one sees evil in another, there had better not be any evil in you too.

Why would sinners be going around trying to remove sin from each other. If they were sinners don't you think Christ would have first said 'be saved first. Why would he bother rebuking unsaved people about removing sin. They can't because they are unsaved. That isn't even a question for them as they cannot remove sin without first being born again in Christ.

Jesus' point...the moral of the story...was this...If you aren't clean, don't tell others they are unclean.
The adulteress caught in the act in John 8 is on the same track: "he who is without sin...".
Get clean yourselves, before judging others.

Of course. If no temptation is too great then those Christians who have occasionally sinned did not fully trust and hand over to God that temptation. But in doing so for that occasional time doesn't suddenly make them not Christians.

It seems that some temptations are too much for the occasionally wicked to resist.
So if no temptation is too much for Christians to resist, what does that make those who don't resist ?
Their fruit shows them to be nonChristians.

They are rebuked like Paul says Christians in the church are rebuked and they get back to being even more like Christ and never repeating that sin. Thats why Paul clarified this when he says 'those who practice sin'. As opposed to those who sin full stop.

Paul, (John actually in 1 John 3, 4, and 5) never said "practice" sin.
One sin, makes a man a sinner.
One sin a year, or one sin every five years, manifests that a man is a child of the devil. (1 John 3:8-10)

As I pointed out above you are assuming that by saying that the reality is that Christians can sometimes sin that this somehow negates the truth of Gods word that we saved or cannot potentially not ever sin. It just means that in reality Christians sin.

You are correct.
To think for a moment that those who have turned from sin, been baptized into Christ, have the gift of the Holy Ghost, and have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, will continue to commit sin, is not of Gods word.

What I think your also doing is assuming that in saying Christians sin that this somehow opens a flood gate or is the sin as practicing sin all the sin and repeating the same sins.

It isn't an assumption, but the way of the world.

Its not. I qualified this. Its not the obvious sins, its not often but should be rare and rarer as time goes by and it is heading towards Christ and not away from Him. Big difference.

The seed of God cannot bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.
The fruit manifests from whom one is born.

Ok so I think your making another assumption. That because I am saying Christians can sin sometimes that I am also saying that there are no Christians who may never sin. Which I am not. I am saying that there are Christians who sin. This is a fact.

If we are labeling the disobedient "Christian", how can we convince anyone to turn from sin ?
I can't tell someone to get 55% or 75% better, and they will go to heaven.
True righteousness is the requirement: and nothing less will manifest the sufferings, death, and resurrection, of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul is talking about Christians within the Church who have sinned. He says to confront them with two brothers and then bring them before the church and if they still don't repent treat them like a pagan. They were not a pagan to begin with but a Christian within the church.

I disagree.
They were unbelievers in the church.

Matthew 18: 15-17
15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Again, that is Jesus talking to Jews, who were all still walking in and after the "flesh".
Christians have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), and they walk in and after the Spirit.

Yes that is correct. Why can't both be correct.

If it is correct, they can't both be right.
His Rom. 7 plaints were a narrative of his Pharisaic life, lived trying unsuccessfully, to please God by keeping the Law.
None of it carried over to his post-conversion life.

He is obviously acknowledging that Christians can sin as above. There is a difference between as the Christian who is confront repents and doesn't do it again to the one who doesn't and is treated like a pagan..

That repentance should have occurred at the start of his new life.
To repent again, just indicates an actual start.

But if when you sin you acknowledge this and take it to God isn't that the relationship which is ongoing. Thats the very definition. That you take all your burdons and weaknesses to God so He can help.

As it is written in John 9:31 that "God heareth not sinners", it is superfluous to imagine the wicked having a relationship with God.

Actually I just started replying to the rest and realised that we are getting too deep into this and its getting nowhere. We obviously have a different take on this. But I will once again point ut that I am not denying that we can be like Christ. That God provides a way out of temptations if we trust him.

As long as you are aware that rescue is out there, I can't do much more for you, but show how it is obtained.
I'll be around...
Thanks...

 

[Hans Blaster]

Actually I don't now. I thought it was something to do with saying that Christians are getting some sort of advantage which negatives their facalties and agency and they are somehow taken over like robots by Christ to behave morally. So it doesn't count as a moral system.

Didn't say robots, but otherwise it is close.

Why, you would not be able to say anything lol. You have already been engaging in philosophy haven't you.

i try not to, but I don't want to attract flies or philolosophers.

 

[stevevw]

That's the spirit !

"Can", and "do" commit sin, are worlds apart.
Everyone who has turned from the world and unto God "can" commit sin, but refuse to do so.
To commit sin would indicate a lack of a turn from the world.

No everyone who has turned to God "can" commit sin, as do so and it doesn't mean a lack of turning away from the world. They are 99% Christlike. That is significantly turning away from the world. But they still need some work to do. This does not make them non Christians.

I just provided evidence from the church fathers, from the vast majority of scholars and Christians and from Paul himself and still you persist and never answer why this is so. Why the vast majority agree that Christians can still sin.

We differ on that point.
To say one is a Christian infers one's departure from loving this world and to loving God with all one's heat, soul, mind, and strength.
Sinners cannot show love with sinning.

Yes they have a heart that loves God and hates the world. They don't live by the worlds standards or ideologies. They may sacrifice their life as a missionary, or help the poor like the Good Samaritan. But they have still sinned on occassions as they are made more like Christ. Heck Mother Terrasa admitted she had sinned and was a sinner even as a Christian. The Pope admits this and all church fathers have like Augustine who is seen as like a saint.

It should occur at the same time.
Repentance and cleansing are the initial steps to Christianity.
Turned from sin, and clean of sin...how is that not Christlike ?
From that point on, we grow in grace and knowledge, but can't turn any farther, or be made any cleaner.

What your more or less claiming is that every Christians will experience a miraculous transformation over night into Christ. I have seen addicts who have come to Christ and from the person they were on day one to day two is completely different to the person they end up becoming under God 1, 2, 3, and 10 years later.

They may have had many issues underlying their addiction that needed to be dealt with. It was these issues that stopped them from breaking the chains of their past. But with therapy and strength from God they overcome and become new people completely transformed from the inside and out.

So will will not see that dramatic transformation on day 2. But you will see it on day 1,000 or more. You could then put that transformed person next to the saved addict on day 1 and if you saidf it was day 1 it would seem like a miracle. God works with the practical reality that sin and its condquences can sometimes take time to undo.

If they 'happen to sin', their minds were not "after Christ".
The Anchor and the Rock are not conquerable.

Yes they are because they do not practice sin and harbor it in their hearts. The idea of a heart and mind after God is that you keep commiting and ridding yourself of sin. Not that you magically have no sin. Its the disoposition of a heart that is willing to keep handing over disoite our weaknesses.

But if you refuse to hand over and then live with that sin in your heart this is a completely different disposition. One or a lack of submission and obedience when we sin in responding to spirits conviction of that sin when we are made aware.

There were no Christians until after Christ was raised from the grave.
Jesus' words were to the Jews.
They still serve as a warning for us though, as if one sees evil in another, there had better not be any evil in you too.

So this was not a teaching for Christians about self reflection and addressing our own sin first before we trying to remove any from others.

This verse continues the metaphor of a person with a plank in their own eye who criticizes someone for a speck in that person's eye. In this verse, Jesus argues that one must first remove the plank before going on to remove the speck. This verse warns us against hypocrisy, seeing the flaw (sin) in another while ignoring the obvious sin in our own lives. Jesus always made clear that judging was to be done by the Father, and making their own soul ready humans should concern themselves withfor acceptance into the kingdom of God. The focus should always be on God’s grace, and in obedience rooting out the sin in our lives rather than concerning ourselves with the sins of others. [2]

Matthew 7:5 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jesus' point...the moral of the story...was this...If you aren't clean, don't tell others they are unclean.
The adulteress caught in the act in John 8 is on the same track: "he who is without sin...".
Get clean yourselves, before judging others.

Yes which implies Christians should always be striving first to rid themselves of sin to have a clear conscience and to be able to see the sin in their brother so that they can point that out and help them to also overcome that sin.

Paul mentions this in how a brother may sin in the church and that senior members confront him so that he repents. Its Christians in relation to Christians in the church.

It seems that some temptations are too much for the occasionally wicked to resist.
So if no temptation is too much for Christians to resist, what does that make those who don't resist ?
Their fruit shows them to be nonChristians.

Actually their fruit is trending towards good fruit, They have much good fruits. They may have stopped their addiction, stopped stealing, abusing family members, and this is all good fruit. But they may have some deeper issues that prevent them from becoming fully like Christ. They may find it hard at first to face some ugly skeletons or they percieve them as ugly and this is preventing them.

But they gradually trust in God and hand those things over. But this becomes a long term disposition and we will always be digging deeper into our souls to becomeaware of ways in whuch we fall short.

Paul, (John actually in 1 John 3, 4, and 5) never said "practice" sin.
One sin, makes a man a sinner.
One sin a year, or one sin every five years, manifests that a man is a child of the devil. (1 John 3:8-10)

Yes we are all sinners and anyone who denies this is not in Christ.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
https://www.bible.com/bible/59/1JN.... sin, we deceive ourselves,word is not in us.
This verse is the key. If we practice sin we become a slave to sin because its the practice of sin that cultivates the heart. Rge disposotion to practice sin as opposed to the disposition to not practice sin is completely different. One cultivates the heart into being a slave to sin and the other transforms the heart into being more Christlike.

If someone commits to a healthy program it is their heart and minds disposition that will put them in a good headspace for driving forward to the intended goal. The heart and mind is committed to changing oneself into a better person. If they have a slip this will not change the persons heart and mind in striving for the goal. But if they were to allow that slip to become a second and third slip then this will undermine the heart and mind and eventually they will cave in.

If the persons heart and mind is not in a committed and positive frame to begin with then no amount of doing the right thing is going to work. So a slip along the way in achieving that transformation to the person with the disposition of a heart and mind towards that positive end goal of becoming healthy will not mean they are suddenly no longer the person with that disposition to achieve their goal if they get over that and keep going.

You are correct.
To think for a moment that those who have turned from sin, been baptized into Christ, have the gift of the Holy Ghost, and have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, will continue to commit sin, is not of Gods word.

Well unfortuanetly life sometimes doesn't go the way we hoped. People are different, some stronger than others due to individual circumstances and sometimes we may lose our way being weak humans. Thank God He is always there and ready to recieve us when we come to him with out burdons and weaknesses.

Lets do another thought experiment. So a Christians may sin say after being a Christian for 20 years. Does this negate that entire 20 years of Christian belief. Are they no longer a Christian if they repent.

It isn't an assumption, but the way of the world.

Yes but your assuming that a Christian who may sin once or occassionally is suddenly the way of the world. When they still have a heart after God. When they have still been living a Christian life which is not of the world. Your creating an either/or fallacy. Either there is a perfect Christian or there is the devil. A Christian who may sin once in their life but still become Christlike is of the devil.

The seed of God cannot bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.
The fruit manifests from whom one is born.

Yes thats right. But a liar who stops lying and may at one time fall short in his weakness over some situation where they may have compromised for whatever reason. Maybe a sin of ommission where they did not do enough to ensure the truth came out because they were fearful of losing their job ect.

I reckon there are many Christians who fall short in this regard but will learn to be more Christlike in the end. If thyey are Christians then they will be convicted for not standing up for truth and then they should stand up and learn to trust God more. This is acommon theme in Gods relationship with people.

If we are labeling the disobedient "Christian", how can we convince anyone to turn from sin ?

Because your conflation a CHristian where sin is the exception and making it the rule to judge them by. A person who has committed to a diet and health regime and been achiving fruits and transformation as a result is not then defined by the one slip they may have.

That is a false representation of where they are at. Rather they should be judged by the continued committment to the health regime. minimizing and stopping the slips until they have acheved a perfect regime. They don't suddenly become the same as unhealthly and obese person bewcause of one or two slips.

I can't tell someone to get 55% or 75% better, and they will go to heaven.

Your missing the point. Christians who may slip in sin sometimes just like the person who is committed to a health regime is 100% committed. This is testified by the fact that they take that occassional slip and take it to God or get rid of the slip and go back to the healthy regime or innot sinning again like that. Rather than allowing that slip to become a practice and then take over their heart.

The heart is not about having a perfect score but rather being will to be obedient and committed in the end to that perfect score. Its the disposition and not the individual slips. Your judging a persons entire salvation on one slip and they are out lol. The Prodigal son refutes this. He was already saved. Had recieved his inheritence and then went out into the world. But he came back.

Do you think a CHristian who sins is damned if they seek to stop that sin in becoming more Christlike. If they do sin and become more Christlike are they continuiously becoming unsaved then saved when they hand that sin over to God.

True righteousness is the requirement: and nothing less will manifest the sufferings, death, and resurrection, of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree and that is our aim. Every Christ should get to a point where like Christ, like Peter and Paul are willing to die for Christ. Are willing to give up their possessions for Christ to the point that they will trust God to provide. They should be persecuted right now and losing their jobs for Christ if there is a conflict with their faith.

In fact they should not even be seeking any job that does not ultimately help the poor. Even putting their own families lower than helping the poor because this assumes if they are perfect then they are also in a perfect marriage and both are doing the same. But sometimes we as Christians fall short of this. But the aim should be to achieve this.

I disagree.
They were unbelievers in the church.

If they were unbelievers in the church then why were they in the church. Paul isn't saying if a church members sins go and preach the gospel to save him first before then allowing him to stay in the church. Otherwise your saying that Paul means that if a sinner sins in the church so long as they confess the sin but not necessarily commit to Christ they can stay in the church.

It is implied that the sinner is a Christian church member by the fact that they are allowed to stay after they repent. They cannot repent of a sin if they are not saved in the first place. Your reading stuff into it that is just not there.

Again, that is Jesus talking to Jews, who were all still walking in and after the "flesh".
Christians have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), and they walk in and after the Spirit.

The statement from Paul that if the brother does not admit his sin and repent he is to be treated as a pagan implies that at the time they were confront they were not a pagan. They were being treated as a Christian brother. Like I said a pagan or non Christian cannot repent of sin. They need to be saved first.

Paul is talking about confronting the Christian sinner with the facts that they sinned so they will see the error of their way.
take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c

Why would Paul bother with all this hassel of trying to convice a pagan that they have sinned when pagans don't believe in sin. They need to be saved first. In fact Paul states that these instructions and rebukings are not for non believers but Christians.

The heading for the verse comes under 'Instructions for the church'. The previous verse is speaking about accusations of sin against Elders in the church and that there needs to be two witnesses. Then Paul generalises this same instruction for any church member. Its all within the church.

If it is correct, they can't both be right.
His Rom. 7 plaints were a narrative of his Pharisaic life, lived trying unsuccessfully, to please God by keeping the Law.
None of it carried over to his post-conversion life.

Then why would Paul be complaining about his pharisaic life in teaching the gentiles. He is speaking to all Christians and how our nature makes us do what we know is wrong. He admits it.

That repentance should have occurred at the start of his new life.
To repent again, just indicates an actual start.

We disagree and we are not going to resolve it. The vast majority of Christians disagree.

 

[Hoping2]

No everyone who has turned to God "can" commit sin, ...

Can, and do, are different animals.

...as do so and it doesn't mean a lack of turning away from the world. They are 99% Christlike. That is significantly turning away from the world. But they still need some work to do. This does not make them non Christians.

Christians are 100% NOT of this world.
If you see worldliness in them, they are not of God..

After scanning the rest of your post, I find we are quite at odds with one another.
There is no defense for sin.

I just provided evidence from the church fathers, from the vast majority of scholars and Christians and from Paul himself and still you persist and never answer why this is so. Why the vast majority agree that Christians can still sin.

Yes they have a heart that loves God and hates the world. They don't live by the worlds standards or ideologies. They may sacrifice their life as a missionary, or help the poor like the Good Samaritan. But they have still sinned on occassions as they are made more like Christ. Heck Mother Terrasa admitted she had sinned and was a sinner even as a Christian. The Pope admits this and all church fathers have like Augustine who is seen as like a saint.

What your more or less claiming is that every Christians will experience a miraculous transformation over night into Christ. I have seen addicts who have come to Christ and from the person they were on day one to day two is completely different to the person they end up becoming under God 1, 2, 3, and 10 years later.

They may have had many issues underlying their addiction that needed to be dealt with. It was these issues that stopped them from breaking the chains of their past. But with therapy and strength from God they overcome and become new people completely transformed from the inside and out.

So will will not see that dramatic transformation on day 2. But you will see it on day 1,000 or more. You could then put that transformed person next to the saved addict on day 1 and if you saidf it was day 1 it would seem like a miracle. God works with the practical reality that sin and its condquences can sometimes take time to undo.

Yes they are because they do not practice sin and harbor it in their hearts. The idea of a heart and mind after God is that you keep commiting and ridding yourself of sin. Not that you magically have no sin. Its the disoposition of a heart that is willing to keep handing over disoite our weaknesses.

But if you refuse to hand over and then live with that sin in your heart this is a completely different disposition. One or a lack of submission and obedience when we sin in responding to spirits conviction of that sin when we are made aware.

So this was not a teaching for Christians about self reflection and addressing our own sin first before we trying to remove any from others.

This verse continues the metaphor of a person with a plank in their own eye who criticizes someone for a speck in that person's eye. In this verse, Jesus argues that one must first remove the plank before going on to remove the speck. This verse warns us against hypocrisy, seeing the flaw (sin) in another while ignoring the obvious sin in our own lives. Jesus always made clear that judging was to be done by the Father, and making their own soul ready humans should concern themselves withfor acceptance into the kingdom of God. The focus should always be on God’s grace, and in obedience rooting out the sin in our lives rather than concerning ourselves with the sins of others. [2]

Matthew 7:5 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes which implies Christians should always be striving first to rid themselves of sin to have a clear conscience and to be able to see the sin in their brother so that they can point that out and help them to also overcome that sin.

Paul mentions this in how a brother may sin in the church and that senior members confront him so that he repents. Its Christians in relation to Christians in the church.

Actually their fruit is trending towards good fruit, They have much good fruits. They may have stopped their addiction, stopped stealing, abusing family members, and this is all good fruit. But they may have some deeper issues that prevent them from becoming fully like Christ. They may find it hard at first to face some ugly skeletons or they percieve them as ugly and this is preventing them.

But they gradually trust in God and hand those things over. But this becomes a long term disposition and we will always be digging deeper into our souls to becomeaware of ways in whuch we fall short.

Yes we are all sinners and anyone who denies this is not in Christ.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
https://www.bible.com/bible/59/1JN.1.8-10.ESV#:~:text=1 John 1:8-10 ESV&text=Share-,If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,word is not in us.
This verse is the key. If we practice sin we become a slave to sin because its the practice of sin that cultivates the heart. Rge disposotion to practice sin as opposed to the disposition to not practice sin is completely different. One cultivates the heart into being a slave to sin and the other transforms the heart into being more Christlike.

If someone commits to a healthy program it is their heart and minds disposition that will put them in a good headspace for driving forward to the intended goal. The heart and mind is committed to changing oneself into a better person. If they have a slip this will not change the persons heart and mind in striving for the goal. But if they were to allow that slip to become a second and third slip then this will undermine the heart and mind and eventually they will cave in.

If the persons heart and mind is not in a committed and positive frame to begin with then no amount of doing the right thing is going to work. So a slip along the way in achieving that transformation to the person with the disposition of a heart and mind towards that positive end goal of becoming healthy will not mean they are suddenly no longer the person with that disposition to achieve their goal if they get over that and keep going.

Well unfortuanetly life sometimes doesn't go the way we hoped. People are different, some stronger than others due to individual circumstances and sometimes we may lose our way being weak humans. Thank God He is always there and ready to recieve us when we come to him with out burdons and weaknesses.

Lets do another thought experiment. So a Christians may sin say after being a Christian for 20 years. Does this negate that entire 20 years of Christian belief. Are they no longer a Christian if they repent.

Yes but your assuming that a Christian who may sin once or occassionally is suddenly the way of the world. When they still have a heart after God. When they have still been living a Christian life which is not of the world. Your creating an either/or fallacy. Either there is a perfect Christian or there is the devil. A Christian who may sin once in their life but still become Christlike is of the devil.

Yes thats right. But a liar who stops lying and may at one time fall short in his weakness over some situation where they may have compromised for whatever reason. Maybe a sin of ommission where they did not do enough to ensure the truth came out because they were fearful of losing their job ect.

I reckon there are many Christians who fall short in this regard but will learn to be more Christlike in the end. If thyey are Christians then they will be convicted for not standing up for truth and then they should stand up and learn to trust God more. This is acommon theme in Gods relationship with people.

Because your conflation a CHristian where sin is the exception and making it the rule to judge them by. A person who has committed to a diet and health regime and been achiving fruits and transformation as a result is not then defined by the one slip they may have.

That is a false representation of where they are at. Rather they should be judged by the continued committment to the health regime. minimizing and stopping the slips until they have acheved a perfect regime. They don't suddenly become the same as unhealthly and obese person bewcause of one or two slips.

Your missing the point. Christians who may slip in sin sometimes just like the person who is committed to a health regime is 100% committed. This is testified by the fact that they take that occassional slip and take it to God or get rid of the slip and go back to the healthy regime or innot sinning again like that. Rather than allowing that slip to become a practice and then take over their heart.

The heart is not about having a perfect score but rather being will to be obedient and committed in the end to that perfect score. Its the disposition and not the individual slips. Your judging a persons entire salvation on one slip and they are out lol. The Prodigal son refutes this. He was already saved. Had recieved his inheritence and then went out into the world. But he came back.

Do you think a CHristian who sins is damned if they seek to stop that sin in becoming more Christlike. If they do sin and become more Christlike are they continuiously becoming unsaved then saved when they hand that sin over to God.

I agree and that is our aim. Every Christ should get to a point where like Christ, like Peter and Paul are willing to die for Christ. Are willing to give up their possessions for Christ to the point that they will trust God to provide. They should be persecuted right now and losing their jobs for Christ if there is a conflict with their faith.

In fact they should not even be seeking any job that does not ultimately help the poor. Even putting their own families lower than helping the poor because this assumes if they are perfect then they are also in a perfect marriage and both are doing the same. But sometimes we as Christians fall short of this. But the aim should be to achieve this.

If they were unbelievers in the church then why were they in the church. Paul isn't saying if a church members sins go and preach the gospel to save him first before then allowing him to stay in the church. Otherwise your saying that Paul means that if a sinner sins in the church so long as they confess the sin but not necessarily commit to Christ they can stay in the church.

It is implied that the sinner is a Christian church member by the fact that they are allowed to stay after they repent. They cannot repent of a sin if they are not saved in the first place. Your reading stuff into it that is just not there.

The statement from Paul that if the brother does not admit his sin and repent he is to be treated as a pagan implies that at the time they were confront they were not a pagan. They were being treated as a Christian brother. Like I said a pagan or non Christian cannot repent of sin. They need to be saved first.

Paul is talking about confronting the Christian sinner with the facts that they sinned so they will see the error of their way.
take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c

Why would Paul bother with all this hassel of trying to convice a pagan that they have sinned when pagans don't believe in sin. They need to be saved first. In fact Paul states that these instructions and rebukings are not for non believers but Christians.

The heading for the verse comes under 'Instructions for the church'. The previous verse is speaking about accusations of sin against Elders in the church and that there needs to be two witnesses. Then Paul generalises this same instruction for any church member. Its all within the church.

Then why would Paul be complaining about his pharisaic life in teaching the gentiles. He is speaking to all Christians and how our nature makes us do what we know is wrong. He admits it.

We disagree and we are not going to resolve it. The vast majority of Christians disagree.

 

[stevevw]

Can, and do, are different animals.

Ok well the 'can' can turn to do lol. Sounds like a dance from the 1920s.

Christians are 100% NOT of this world.
If you see worldliness in them, they are not of God..

What do you mean by worldliness. Buying houses, cars, and stuff. Where is the line for when we stop living in this world. Is it buying too expensive a car of house. Is it getting to involved in your career. Is it enjoying this world too much.

After scanning the rest of your post, I find we are quite at odds with one another.
There is no defense for sin.

And I am not making defense for sin. You are creating a strawman. I have clearly said that any sin that a Christian is aware of must be handed to God and that they move towards being like Christ.

Defending sin would be not handing sin over and saying thats still ok, Theres a big difference. One is more or less defending sin by holding on to it and the other is rejecting sin and handing it over.

But I agree we have a different view on this. BUt what I can't understand is that I have mentioned several times how all the great chuirch fathers like Augustine of Hippo and the vast majority of scholars say Christians can still sin and you never addressed this. Are you saying they are all wrong and were never really Christians.

This is what I mean by reality. You have not thought the the reality of your view. It more or less wipes out Christian history and the majority of beliefs on this over the last 2000 years.

 

[Hoping2]

Ok well the 'can' can turn to do lol. Sounds like a dance from the 1920s.

Just because we "can" doesn't necessitate that we "do".

What do you mean by worldliness. Buying houses, cars, and stuff. Where is the line for when we stop living in this world. Is it buying too expensive a car of house. Is it getting to involved in your career. Is it enjoying this world too much.

I mean the pursuits of evil.

And I am not making defense for sin. You are creating a strawman. I have clearly said that any sin that a Christian is aware of must be handed to God and that they move towards being like Christ.

That sin should have been "turned from" at the start of their conversion.
Repentance from sin was the very first command by Peter in Acts 2:38.
Without it, everything else is built on sand.

Defending sin would be not handing sin over and saying thats still ok, Theres a big difference. One is more or less defending sin by holding on to it and the other is rejecting sin and handing it over.

Quit sinning, and the matter would be closed.

But I agree we have a different view on this. BUt what I can't understand is that I have mentioned several times how all the great chuirch fathers like Augustine of Hippo and the vast majority of scholars say Christians can still sin and you never addressed this. Are you saying they are all wrong and were never really Christians.

I am not sure my answer to that would go over very well on this site.
If a man isn't precluding sin, he is accommodating it.

This is what I mean by reality. You have not thought the the reality of your view. It more or less wipes out Christian history and the majority of beliefs on this over the last 2000 years.

Christian history started with pure people with the gift of the Holy Ghost changing sinners into new creatures void of sin.
People equipt to keep themselves free of sin.

 

[stevevw]

Just because we "can" doesn't necessitate that we "do".

Yes it does in reality by the fact that Christians sin. They admit it. They confess their sins. The CC has confession of sins and you can't say that they are all non Christians lol. You would be wiping out the largest Christian denomination in the world. The Pope and all the bishops throughout history.

I mean the pursuits of evil.

Buying too expensive a car or house or buyng a gaget you may not need instead of helping the poor is persuing sin. Christ gave the example of the Good Samaritan when the disciples asked how they could get to heaven.

But also I am glad you said persuing evil. There is a different heart to persuing evil and persuing Christ. So making a slip in sin that you repent on is not persuing evil but persuing Christ. If it was persuing evil then the sin would continue and be repeated. To persue something you have to make the effort to take the steps towards that evil. How can you do that if you repent and take the steps towards Christ.

That sin should have been "turned from" at the start of their conversion.

Yes the obvious ones. The ones you are aware of. But what about when God makes you aware that your falling short along the way and you did not realise this.

I made the destinction between a youth and an older wise man who has a much deeper knowledge of life. What a youth thinks is ok an older and wise person in God may think is sin. What we as a society thought was ok 100 years ago is now seen as sin.

Sin is anything that convicts as being wrong. Your conscience convicts you. Apart from say psychological disorders that can cause someone to feel guilty for wrong when they have done nothing wrong. Christians are guided by their conscience. But if you have rationalised a sin or the society believes something is ok and they are not aware or don't understand the facts then though ultimately its falling short and sin the person was not aware at the time. Later they may as society has evolved to understand that it was sinful all along.

My experience with copyright is a good example. There was not all this awareness of copyright and it was common place. So the thought that it was wrong did not cross my mind. How could I stop a sin I was not even aware of. But later God made me aware that its a form of stealing. Then I handed it over to God. It also gave me insight into how social norms can influence Christians which influences their understanding of right and wrong.

I applied that lesson across the board so that even things like not putting in your best at work, using work stuff for private reasons. Not the obvious but say your in the office and you forgot an important phone call and you use the work phone. You may be in a rush and cut a corner ect. These are all little ways of stealing either time, or effort or compromising because of lifes stresses or whatever.

Repentance from sin was the very first command by Peter in Acts 2:38.
Without it, everything else is built on sand.

Yes I agree and without that foundation a Christian who may slip in sin would be lost. Would have no way of making themselves right with God is they happened to sin.

Quit sinning, and the matter would be closed.

I agree. If only all Christians could be this way. But thank God, God is a loving God who hears our prayers and confessions and forgives.

I am not sure my answer to that would go over very well on this site.

Yes thats why I am also hestitant to delve in too deep.

If a man isn't precluding sin, he is accommodating it.

I agree and our commitment and disposition should be one that goes in without compromise on sin. No sin can be accommodated. If you know it is wrong and you accommodate it then you are knowingly sinning and accommodating not just that sin but also a heart that accommodates sin.

But a heart that does not accommodate sin and then may fall short once or twice is not accommodating sin. Their intentions and commitment was not to sin. But they did or were made aware that they did.

They still maintain the heart that doesn't accommodate sin. They just were weak on that occassions and fell short. They then recommit and never sin like that again. They have learnt and become a better Christian.

Christian history started with pure people with the gift of the Holy Ghost changing sinners into new creatures void of sin.
People equipt to keep themselves free of sin.

Yes we need to get back to this as a church. Part of the problem today is that there is a lot more distractions especially in the west which has become so comfortable in this world.

They turn sin into good and good into sin. In that sense I agree that we should as a church clarify exactly what sin is and is not to cut through the white noise of modern rationalisations about morality and what is Godly.

A true church of Christ should be in conflict with the world and its members like in the early church sacrificing for the good and even being persecuted by the world. But like Paul had said that the sinner needs to be confronted and repent so that sin is removed from the church. Some modern churches have accommodated sin and its taking over.