BofM myths

[twhite982]

It is a yes or no question. Do you believe that your prophet knows what he is talking about when he claims that it is the same spot for the battle or do you believe he doesn't know and it just "guessing"? Do you believe your prophet who is the head of your church or do you believe the folks at FARMS?

Ok, so those are 2 yes or no questions and they should be easy to answer. They are definitly yes or no questions.

Grace

C'mon Grace,

You know those questions are leading.

I stated before that NO OFFICIAL LDS STATEMENT HAS BEEN MADE.

With that in mind, I can be assured that those statements by LDS leaders are not declaring doctrine from the Lord, but stating their own personal belief.

I am allowed to disagree with them on the matter and I favor the arguements put forth showing the 2 hill cumorahs.

A prophet making a claim and declaring doctrine is not the same and I know you know this.

Do you agree with me that no official position for the church regarding geography has been made?

TW

 

[happyinhisgrace]

C'mon Grace,

You know those questions are leading.

I stated before that NO OFFICIAL LDS STATEMENT HAS BEEN MADE.

With that in mind, I can be assured that those statements by LDS leaders are not declaring doctrine from the Lord, but stating their own personal belief.

I am allowed to disagree with them on the matter and I favor the arguements put forth showing the 2 hill cumorahs.

A prophet making a claim and declaring doctrine is not the same and I know you know this.

Do you agree with me that no official position for the church regarding geography has been made?

TW

TW, who cares if they are leading or not, that is not even the point. I asked you a yes or no question and you answer it with another question. I don't care what the "official" lds statement is on it or not, I asked you, "do you believe your prophet is telling the truth, or just speaking in opinion or do you believe the guys at FARMS".....good grief, it is an easy question. I really DO NOT care what the "official" church statement is on the topic. YOur prophet made a claim and I want to know if you believe what he said? Yes or NO?

Grace

 

[twhite982]

TW, who cares if they are leading or not, that is not even the point. I asked you a yes or no question and you answer it with another question. I don't care what the "official" lds statement is on it or not, I asked you, "do you believe your prophet is telling the truth, or just speaking in opinion or do you believe the guys at FARMS".....good grief, it is an easy question. I really DO NOT care what the "official" church statement is on the topic. YOur prophet made a claim and I want to know if you believe what he said? Yes or NO?

Grace

I've already stated I side with those who support the 2 hill cumorahs.

Look at your question:

"do you believe your prophet is telling the truth, or just speaking in opinion or do you believe the guys at FARMS"

You imply with this question that if he is stating his opinion its a lie or at least not the truth.

This was my point about your questions.

I believe those Leaders were speaking the truth the best that they understood it. No lie.

Would you answer my question, whether you care or not?

Do you agree with me that no official position for the church regarding geography has been made?

TW

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I've already stated I side with those who support the 2 hill cumorahs.

Look at your question:


You imply with this question that if he is stating his opinion its a lie or at least not the truth.

This was my point about your questions.

I believe those Leaders were speaking the truth the best that they understood it. No lie.

Would you answer my question, whether you care or not?


TW

I have never heard an "official" position on it, no. I was taught in seminary and "know your religion" classes that it was the same hill where JS found the Gold Plates but I have never read an official position.

Ok, so you don't believe your prophet then on where it was. That was all you had to say in the beginning and you could have saved both me and yourself A LOT of typing...lol

Grace

 

[twhite982]

I have never heard an "official" position on it, no. I was taught in seminary and "know your religion" classes that it was the same hill where JS found the Gold Plates but I have never read an official position.

Ok, so you don't believe your prophet then on where it was. That was all you had to say in the beginning and you could have saved both me and yourself A LOT of typing...lol

Grace

You have a way of twisting words to make it appear that I believe something different than I stated.

On this issue of geography, I disagree with LDS leaders that express their VIEW of 2 hill cumorahs.

That's completely different than not believing them.

TW

 

[happyinhisgrace]

You have a way of twisting words to make it appear that I believe something different than I stated.

On this issue of geography, I disagree with LDS leaders that express their VIEW of 2 hill cumorahs.

That's completely different than not believing them.

TW

OK, so you believe that the prophet was just speaking as a "man" then when he made that statement and not as a prophet of God who would actually know such a thing?

Grace

 

[twhite982]

OK, so you believe that the prophet was just speaking as a "man" then when he made that statement and not as a prophet of God who would actually know such a thing?

Grace

If this were an issue for me:


I would look at the context of the statement,

Bounce that off of already established official church statements / doctrine,

Look through the scriptures,

and most importantly inquire of the Lord.



One thing you'll probally see within LDS circles is that not too many will persue this as you have been, since as I stated earlier its a secondary issue and really has no impact on salvation (from an LDS standpoint).

Its something enquiring minds want to know as with tons of other questions we all have.

TW

 

[happyinhisgrace]

You have a way of twisting words to make it appear that I believe something different than I stated.

On this issue of geography, I disagree with LDS leaders that express their VIEW of 2 hill cumorahs.

That's completely different than not believing them.

TW

I should have added this to my last post but I got "trigger happy" with the "reply".

OK, you don't seem to see how this is contraditing in what you say. You state "it doesn't mean I don't believe him" (them?) but then you turn around and say that you don't agree with his statement..This is the prophet that leads your church, the one that is supposed to be the closest person on this earth at this time to God and yet you disagree with his statement on a fundamental LDS BofM story place. If you can't trust what your own prophet who is supposed to be "seer and revelater" to make a correct statement about such a thing, why is this man leading your church and being the "voice of God" for your church?

Grace

 

[twhite982]

I should have added this to my last post but I got "trigger happy" with the "reply".

OK, you don't seem to see how this is contraditing in what you say. You state "it doesn't mean I don't believe him" (them?) but then you turn around and say that you don't agree with his statement..This is the prophet that leads your church, the one that is supposed to be the closest person on this earth at this time to God and yet you disagree with his statement on a fundamental LDS BofM story place. If you can't trust what your own prophet who is supposed to be "seer and revelater" to make a correct statement about such a thing, why is this man leading your church and being the "voice of God" for your church?

Grace

Grace,

This is getting nowhere fast.

I feel I've explained my position well enough, but you only want to imply that if I don't believe the opinions of LDS leaders that I disbelieve them as prophets.

I believe they are inspired to be leaders, but they also have their own opinions and don't speak directly for the Lord on every subject.

Do you have any closing arguements, counselor?

I want to wrap this one up.

TW

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Grace,

This is getting nowhere fast.

I feel I've explained my position well enough, but you only want to imply that if I don't believe the opinions of LDS leaders that I disbelieve them as prophets.

I believe they are inspired to be leaders, but they also have their own opinions and don't speak directly for the Lord on every subject.

Do you have any closing arguements, counselor?

I want to wrap this one up.

TW

The only "closing arguement" I would have is if the most important person in your church today (in regards to lds teaching) says something that you can't trust to be true or factual, especially considering how the lds view their "prophets"....I would think it would be time to find a new prophet, or better yet, I new church....might I suggest Jesus?

The State rests your honor. hehe

Grace

 

[twhite982]

The only "closing arguement" I would have is if the most important person in your church today (in regards to lds teaching) says something that you can't trust to be true or factual, especially considering how the lds view their "prophets"....I would think it would be time to find a new prophet, or better yet, I new church....might I suggest Jesus?

The State rests your honor. hehe

Grace

I'll leave you with the last word.

Let the jury decide from our posts.

TW

 

[emerald Dragon]

To nip this in the bud-the prophet is only the prophet when he is acting as such. So, only when he says that it is revelation do we accept it as revelation. We can conclude that some things are his opinion. And-if you look in the letter-it makes NO CLAIM to Godron B. Hinckley respnding to that letter. It says that a letter was passed to Hinkley, and the secretary responded stating that THE CHURCH has long maintained it. It is therefore not a metter that the Prophet answered, and was only a matter that a secretary answered.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[emerald Dragon]

In addition-

Hinckley wasn't prophet at the time that this letter was written. He was only a Frist Counseler to President Benson at the time of the letter.

As a side note, of my own personal opinion, why would you go to the trouble to write a letter to a First Counselor, when you could send it to the prophet?

Oh-how did these people get a copy of this letter? Why would the reciepiants of this letter keep it? It is only an answer to a question, and if I were them, I would trow out the letter, after learning the information.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[baker]

Why would the reciepiants of this letter keep it?

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

Perhaps, from his experiences, he had seen how the church's positions have "changed" before!

 

[Doc T]

The only "closing arguement" I would have is if the most important person in your church today (in regards to lds teaching) says something that you can't trust to be true or factual, especially considering how the lds view their "prophets"....I would think it would be time to find a new prophet, or better yet, I new church....might I suggest Jesus?

Grace

Doc: Either you never understood LDS doctrine as a member or your purposefully trying to distort the truth. Never has the LDS church ever claimed that every word a prophet spoke is the truth. There are ways set in place so we know when a prophet is bringing forth doctrine. There are also ways to know if what the prophet is speaking is the truth. Its called the Holy Ghost. Brigham Young stated that he feared the day when the LDS would blindly accept as the truth every word the prophet spoke. He admonished the Saints to study it for yourselves and gain revelation from the Holy Spirit to know if it is truth or not.

~

 

[Doc T]

I know what you mean Doc. Dragon is but just another who wants us all to by into his "feelings" as opposed to providing any facts.

Hey, by the way, weren't you gonna provide a letter of retraction re: Watson from one of your lds higher ups?

Doc: I requested a copy of the letter and Dr. Hamblin said he would look for it and see if he could find it, but that had been many years ago. I have not heard back from him.


~

 

[Doc T]

[Doc] said the letter was not from the office of the first presidency even though it is. (Have still never understood why it isn't something it says it is .)

Doc: Could you please find the quote where I said that the letter was not from the office of the FP. I only said that it did not constitute "official doctrine."


~

 

[Svt4Him]

Brigham Young stated that he feared the day when the LDS would blindly accept as the truth every word the prophet spoke. He admonished the Saints to study it for yourselves and gain revelation from the Holy Spirit to know if it is truth or not.

~

Yes, but did he say it as a prophet, or just a man? Is this actual Church doctrine, since, from what I see, if it's not, it's false.

 

[dabum2004]

Yes, but did he say it as a prophet, or just a man? Is this actual Church doctrine, since, from what I see, if it's not, it's false.

The prophet, in our eyes, is a man who is called of God to receive revelation for His church from God. Gordon B. Hinckley is that man today.

Did you know that the prophet of the church is visited by his assigned Home Teachers each month? Did you know, that even though he is the only person on the earth with all the keys to receive revelation for God's church, he is still beckoned to learn of God and His Gospel?

Gordon B. Hinckley has never claimed that he never makes mistakes. Actually, quite frequently, he tells us that he is still learning. He tells us how wonderful it is to learn, even in his old age!

Even prophets make mistakes. If that letter is legitimate, and that was the prophet's words, and Church Doctrine later becomes otherwise, then yes, the prophet did make a mistake--and the things said within that letter would be false. But until that day comes, when the Church's stand on that issue--the geography of the Book of Mormon--is different than what he said on that letter, we as Mormons will still accept it as his own personal opinion. After all, isn't he entitled to his own opinion?

And besides, if that letter is not Official Church Doctrine, why does it matter? Isn't Official Church Doctrine what you all are asking about anyway?

 

[dabum2004]

Emerald Dragon Said:
"Why would the recipients keep it?"

Baker Said:
"Perhaps, from his experiences, he had seen how the church's positions have "changed" before!"

The letter that Emerald is referring to, does not have any of the church's positions within it.

Only things that are considered "official church doctrine" are the "church's position."

Even if that letter is legitamate, the things said thereon would not constitute "official church doctrine", unless it is upheld as a standard belief of the Church. In this case, the Church has no specific stand on the geography of the Book of Mormon. So, this topic, among others, is open to speculation.

Gordon is allowed to speculate about this, right?