Blameless in the Law

[Strong in Him]

I did. Are you attempting to make a point?

Yes; don't nag at me to observe context and then ignore it yourself.

 

[Strong in Him]

The Colossians were not Jewish; and neither of those verses mentions anything about Jews.

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

I am not, and never was, a sojourner "journeying with Israel"; I am a Christian.

I would say that Jesus never told his followers to go on, or start, obeying the law, but that would only lead to a repetition of certain verses that have been posted many times before.

As I said, if you believe you have to obey the law to be a good Christian; go ahead.
You'll never convince me that if I wear clothes of more than one fabric, fail to stand in the presence of my elders, get a tattoo or anything else in Leviticus, I'll be kicked out of the kingdom.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am married. As for children; think that boat has sailed.

Mind you, the temple in Jerusalem aint there either.

That is what I was getting at. Even the strictest Orthodox Jews have had to come to grips with the loss of the Temple. For them it is really quite dire - no sacrifice, no forgiveness.

 

[HARK!]

What?

I posted the passage.

Here, I'll spell it out.

(CLV) Dt 24:10
In case you should lend your associate a loan of anything, you shall not enter his house to secure his pawn.

(CLV) Dt 24:11
You shall stand outside, and the man to whom you are lending, he shall bring forth the pawn to you outside.

(CLV) Dt 24:12
And should he be a humble man, you shall not lie down in his pawn of raiment.

(CLV) Dt 24:13
You shall restore, yea restore to him the pawn when the sun sets, that he may lie down in his restored raiment, and he will bless you, and it shall become for you an act of righteousness before Yahweh your Elohim.

 

[HARK!]

I am not, and never was, a sojourner "journeying with Israel"; I am a Christian.

Those who are in Messiah are Israel.

 

[HARK!]

I would say that Jesus never told his followers to go on, or start, obeying the law, but that would only lead to a repetition of certain verses that have been posted many times before.

Really?

(CLV) Lk 18:18
And a certain chief inquires of Him, saying, "Good Teacher, by doing what should I |enjoy the allotment of life eonian?"

(CLV) Lk 18:19
Now Jesus said to him, "Why are you terming Me good? Not one is good except One, God.

(CLV) Lk 18:20
With the precepts you are acquainted: You should not be committing adultery. You should not be murdering. You should not be stealing. You should not be testifying falsely. Be honoring your father and your mother."

 

[HARK!]

Yes; don't nag at me to observe context and then ignore it yourself.

I'm sorry if you felt nagged. In what context would you like to frame that Yahshua was commissioned only for the lost sheep of Israel?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Those who are in Messiah are Israel.

So say you. You have a right to your opinion, of course.

 

[HARK!]

So say you. You have a right to your opinion, of course.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[bbbbbbb]

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Not a problem if you wish to believe that God only imparts salvation through His covenant on Mount Sinai to His people, the physical seed of Abraham.

 

[Strong in Him]

Those who are in Messiah are Israel.

Whatever you say.

That doesn't mean you can say, "now that you are Israel you have to go back to the beginning and obey all the rules that were given too Israel."

 

[Strong in Him]

Really?

(CLV) Lk 18:18
And a certain chief inquires of Him, saying, "Good Teacher, by doing what should I |enjoy the allotment of life eonian?"

(CLV) Lk 18:19
Now Jesus said to him, "Why are you terming Me good? Not one is good except One, God.

(CLV) Lk 18:20
With the precepts you are acquainted: You should not be committing adultery. You should not be murdering. You should not be stealing. You should not be testifying falsely. Be honoring your father and your mother."

i) I said I was not talking about the 10 commandments but all those in Leviticus.
ii) Jesus only listed those commandments that related to loving your neighbour, which the man had kept. The first and most important commandment is to love God and have no other gods or idols. The young man could not keep this. His money was way too important; when told to give it away, he walked away instead.
iii) This does not say that all Gentiles only need to do good deeds and they'll be saved.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm sorry if you felt nagged. In what context would you like to frame that Yahshua was commissioned only for the lost sheep of Israel?

In the context of what happened next, and at other points in his life.

Did Jesus say, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel", walk away and not help the Gentile woman? No, he talked to her, commended her for her faith and healed her daughter.
Did he say to the woman at the well, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, and you're a Samaritan"? No, he talked to her and revealed himself as the Messiah.
Did Jesus say to the Roman centurion, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel; you're a Roman and the enemy"? No, he said that the centurion's faith was greater than the faith he had found in Israel, and then he healed his servant.
Did he say to the cleansed leper who returned to thank him, "oh, your healing was a mistake actually; I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel"? No.

If Jesus had made that comment at the start of his ministry and refused to interact with any Gentiles then maybe you could say "he was only for the Jews". As he didn't; as he continued to talk to this Gentile woman and heal her daughter, what do you believe he meant by that statement?
Because his life and actions show that he was also concerned for the Gentiles.

 

[Studyman]

And still you refuse to answer the question; "do Gentile Christians have to keep all the laws in Leviticus to be saved, or to live good Christian lives?"

I did answer you, you simply ignored the answer. In the Christ of the Bible, there is no Gentile Christian, or Jewish Christian.

Only in the religious philosophy of humans does such a distinction exist.

I have read your posts and I am sure yours is not the voice I should "Live By" to prove what is that acceptable, perfect will of God as I am instructed. I believe Jesus is fully capable to teaching His People how to live "Good Christian Lives".

As the Christ Himself said, both as the Word of God, and as a Flesh and Blood man in the person of Jesus.

Deut. 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.

2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Your unbelief doesn't make the Word's of God void.

Paul lived by God's Laws, even the Laws you claim are only about oxen and only for men of a certain DNA.

1 Cor. 9:8 Say (Teach) I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Your unbelief, or lack of understanding doesn't make the meaning of the Word's of God Void.

I realize how popular your religious philosophy is, and how convinced you are of them. But I'm sticking with the Christ of the bible.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

It is the Word's of the Christ of the Bible that matter, not the philosophies of religious people, even yours.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Studyman]

So say you. You have a right to your opinion, of course.

Well is was also Paul's opinion then.

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit (Jesus) be holy, the lump (His Flesh, lifestyle) is also holy: and if the root be holy, (The foundation of Jesus' Walk) so are the branches. (those who walk like Him)

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, (unbelieving Jews) and thou, being a wild olive tree, ( believing Gentile) wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Gentiles are not free to create their own "way of the Lord". The "ROOT" belongs to God, not men with certain DNA.

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I am believing Paul here regarding how Gentiles become Children of God. It is my opinion that Paul is telling the truth, and those who don't believe the "Root" of God is Holy, are not.

 

[Strong in Him]

I did answer you, you simply ignored the answer. In the Christ of the Bible, there is no Gentile Christian, or Jewish Christian.

That doesn't answer the question.
In Christ, we are all equal; yes. Neither Jew, Gentile, Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, Methodist etc etc - no one is superior to anyone else. We are all God's children, saved by the same Lord, the same Gospel and indwelt by the same Spirit.

In the OT, there certainly was a distinction. There were those who had been rescued from Egypt, given his word and his covenant; and those who hadn't. Those who had, were given laws by God to tell them how to live as his own, holy, covenant people - those laws are found in Exodus an Leviticus. Those who hadn't been rescued by God and were not his people became known as Gentiles and were considered to be unclean.
Then Jesus came. And we can now be forgiven, reconciled to God, have his word and become his children through Christ. When we do, we are new creations, have new hearts and every spiritual blessing.

So, as God's Spirit filled, born again children, who have received his Spirit and EVERY spiritual blessing - do we need to keep all the laws in Leviticus given to people centuries ago to show them how they could be holy?

I have read your posts and I am sure yours is not the voice I should "Live By" to prove what is that acceptable, perfect will of God as I am instructed.

I'm not any kind of spiritual guru and I'm far from being an expert. I am human and have ideas which could be wrong.
But the Scriptures that I quoted don't lie.
God rescued people from Egypt - Joseph's family and descendants who settled there to escape the famine, grew in number because God blessed them and then found the new Pharaoh was a tyrant. He performed many miracles to get them out of Egypt, took them to Mt Sinai, made a covenant with them and gave them his word.
Centuries, and many broken commandments later, Jesus came to lay down his life as a sacrifice for sin, once and for all. He, the Lamb of God, shed his blood which sealed the NEW covenant. We all, Jew and Gentile, can be reconciled to God and children of God through Christ. HE has saved us and makes us holy; his Spirit makes us God's children.

So why would anyone teach that we have to keep some laws given to others centuries before, in order to belong to Christ?

I believe Jesus is fully capable to teaching His People how to live "Good Christian Lives".

Yes; he did and he does - through his teachings, his example, his death and resurrection and his Spirit. This is what makes someone a Christian.
I was a Christian for years before I'd even read Leviticus.

Your unbelief doesn't make the Word's of God void.

None of God's word is "void", but it's not all applicable to us.

Remember when Jesus restored Simon Peter after the resurrection? He told him that when he was older he would be taken where he did not want to go, and this was indicating the kind of death he would die. Peter saw John, said "what about him?" And Jesus replied "if I want him to live for years; what is that to you?" Or - mind your own business.
In other words, the word that Jesus gave Peter about his death was for him; not John. John could have overheard and thought "Peter is going to die like that, therefore I must be going to as well."
No.
Jesus gave Peter a word for Peter. God gave King Ahab a prophecy for King Ahab (about his death). The word of encouragement that God gave to Elijah on Mt Horeb, was for Elijah. And the laws that he gave to those he had rescued from Egypt were for them, + anyone else who wanted to believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
We can learn from these words when we read the accounts; but we shouldn't assume that every time God speaks his words are for ALL people.

Deut. 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.

2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Exactly.
THEY were the ones who had been led through the wilderness for 40 years and who were physically going to a certain land.

Paul lived by God's Laws,

Paul certainly obeyed Christ - but he also taught that circumcision was not needed and could not save, that food offered to idols was not unclean and that people were not made righteous by the law. He was also called to preach to the Gentiles - formerly known as "unclean people".

even the Laws you claim are only about oxen and only for men of a certain DNA.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

Look at the context of the verse; Paul is talking about their rights as an Apostle and asks "Do we not have the right to food and drink?" 1 Corinthians 9:4, or the right to have a wife, 1 Corinthians 9:5. He asks if it is only he and Barnabas who have to work for a living. He says that soldiers do not serve at their own expense, those who plant vines eat the grapes and those who have cows benefit from the milk.
Then Paul talks about the ox not being muzzled and says "is this law for us? Yes, it is for us because the ploughman and the thresher both share in the harvest that they plant and gather", 1 Corinthians 9:10.
Paul is saying here that, if he and Barnabas wanted to, they would have the right to ask for food and hospitality from them. Jesus said the same thing; don't take money with you, rely on others for hospitality.
In fact, Paul didn't want to make use of this right; he worked a a tentmaker to earn money for his needs so that he wouldn't have to be a burden to the churches to whom he was preaching.

I'm not sure if you've understood this - it sounds like you saw where Paul quoted from Deuteronomy and said "there you are, Paul kept the law."
In fact, if the OT law said that workers were entitled to pay and hospitality, Paul did not live by that; he earned his own money.

I realize how popular your religious philosophy is, and how convinced you are of them. But I'm sticking with the Christ of the bible.

Me too.
The Christ who NEVER said "believe and obey all the laws in Leviticus to get eternal life".

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Exactly.
He did not say "keep the laws in Leviticus".

 

[Thistle]

Jesus did liken the kingdom of God as a seed in us .... a growing perception of self ...

Or maybe a growing perception of God, or at least, ourselves through His eyes.

 

[Scott Husted]

Or maybe a growing perception of God, or at least, ourselves through His eyes.

A seeing us as he sees ... or has all along known us to be ...

 

[Thistle]

A seeing us as he sees ... or has all along known us to be ...

Hopefully being conformed to the image of his Son.

 

[Scott Husted]

Hopefully being conformed to the image of his Son.

That's just it, we already are to our Father ... which will if it hasn't already appeared as this to us, a very personal truth of relationship, like a name in a white stone given ... it's what we see in his face.