Black drivers face more police stops in California, state analysis shows

[Ana the Ist]

I suppose that depends. I have lived in a nice town where there are lots of police, and the town is known for its security and police presence.

Sure...I'm making generalizations. It can also be affected by how much money the community has. I've no doubt that some places with a lot of money have a large and well staffed police force.

One has to remember though...in such communities the police may be better off giving as few tickets to locals as possible...lest the locals decide they don't need so many police.

I lived in a town with a strong firefighters union once....they had 5 fire stations if I recall correctly. I doubt I saw more than 1 house fire in 10 years...and we had 3 more stations than the next town despite them having more people. The union consistently backed the incumbent mayor.

The study though, mentioned gathering data from major cities....so that's what I based my statements on.

And I have lived in and worked in more dangerous areas, where the police were not as visible. However, that was often because they were responding to serious crimes and didn't have as much time to make traffic stops.

Sure. Remember though, criminals rarely wait for the police to show up after serious crimes...so you typically have a suspect description and vehicle description...and that's going to increase the likelihood of being stopped as well.

Ironically I was pulled over by walking in the nicer area because apparently I am big and scary looking.

You were pulled over while walking? The cop said you were scary looking?

 

[tall73]

Sure...I'm making generalizations. It can also be affected by how much money the community has. I've no doubt that some places with a lot of money have a large and well staffed police force.

One has to remember though...in such communities the police may be better off giving as few tickets to locals as possible...lest the locals decide they don't need so many police.

I lived in a town with a strong firefighters union once....they had 5 fire stations if I recall correctly. I doubt I saw more than 1 house fire in 10 years...and we had 3 more stations than the next town despite them having more people. The union consistently backed the incumbent mayor.

The study though, mentioned gathering data from major cities....so that's what I based my statements on.

I have not lived in California, so I cannot speak to their situation. However, even large cities if they are nice can still have a significant police presence.

Sure. Remember though, criminals rarely wait for the police to show up after serious crimes...so you typically have a suspect description and vehicle description...and that's going to increase the likelihood of being stopped as well.

Yes, that is apparently why I was stopped in the nice neighborhood. I just don't think their idea of probable cause always matches up with my hopes or expectations.

You were pulled over while walking? The cop said you were scary looking?

I was pulled over while walking. I can see why you would be suspicious of that. I thought it was pretty odd myself. They said they were looking for a big guy since they had a report of an assault, and big was part of the description. Not sure how much more description there was, because I was not obviously in the need to know loop. They asked me some questions about where I was going, why I was out in the cold, etc. and then I stood there and waited for him to radio in and talk. After he checked in, and apparently figured out I was not the guy, he then told me why he pulled me over, because they were looking for a suspect, who was a big guy, and then let me go one my way. I do wonder why he couldn't radio in for details before pulling me over. I was walking after all, and couldn't get far if he decided I needed to be pulled over.

I was not wearing the greatest clothes because it was cold out and icy, and I was going for layers, not style. I don't recall his exact words other than big guy, etc. but they seemed interested in my strange attire, and asked why I was out walking. I was interpreting, no doubt, with the scary looking part. But it was certainly implied. Eventually he cleared me to move on.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I have not lived in California, so I cannot speak to their situation. However, even large cities if they are nice can still have a significant police presence.

I haven't lived there either, but I have spent considerable time there, mostly in the lower half and San Diego and LA. I don't think my generalizations are off or unfair.

Yes, that is apparently why I was stopped in the nice neighborhood. I just don't think their idea of probable cause always matches up with my hopes or expectations.

Well you understand that they don't need probable cause to stop you, right? Just reasonable suspicion....it's a lower standard.

Reasonable suspicion - Wikipedia

I was pulled over while walking. I can see why you would be suspicious of that. I thought it was pretty odd myself. They said they were looking for a big guy since they had a report of an assault, and big was part of the description. Not sure how much more description there was, because I was not obviously in the need to know loop. They asked me some questions about where I was going, why I was out in the cold, etc. and then I stood there and waited for him to radio in and talk. After he checked in, and apparently figured out I was not the guy, he then told me why he pulled me over, because they were looking for a suspect, who was a big guy, and then let me go one my way. I do wonder why he couldn't radio in for details before pulling me over. I was walking after all, and couldn't get far if he decided I needed to be pulled over.

I was not wearing the greatest clothes because it was cold out and icy, and I was going for layers, not style. I don't recall his exact words other than big guy, etc. but they seemed interested in my strange attire, and asked why I was out walking. I was interpreting, no doubt, with the scary looking part. But it was certainly implied. Eventually he cleared me to move on.

I can see how frustrating that would be...reasonable suspicion can be gained just from matching a couple of aspects of a suspect description.

Since we're all sharing anecdotes, I'll share one of mine. I used to visit a gf who worked night shift at a hotel. In a space of about 2 years I got pulled over 12 times in the same spot. It was a section of road that went from 35 to 45mph and was used as a speed trap. I was definitely speeding the first time...and I got ticketed. I can only assure you that every other time, I was driving like a nun.

I only got the one ticket, but 3 stops involved either a very rude or hostile cop. I actually screamed right in my face when I pointed out that the 45 speed limit sign was visible just 20 yards away. I submitted to 1 search and 3 or 4 sobriety tests.

The thing is I knew what they were doing. I was driving a road that led from a college town with a lot of bars to a highway. They were trying to keep drunk drivers from killing themselves or others on the highway. Was I being profiled? Probably. None said they pulled me over because I fit the profile of 9 out of 10 DUIs they catch....an early 20s white male driving a cheap car....but that's probably the case for at least a few of those stops.

It doesn't justify profiling me....but what's the overall outcome? If inconveniencing 100 guys like me nabs 1 DUI....and every year this stops a person or two from getting into a fatal crash on the highway, it's hard for me to be too upset about the stops....even if I think they aren't justified.

 

[SummerMadness]

Driving while Indian? You're more likely to be searched by the Washington State Patrol

Twelve years ago, academic researchers working with the Washington State Patrol raised a warning flag: Troopers were searching drivers from minority communities, particularly Native Americans, at a much higher rate than whites. They recommended additional study.

That was the last time the State Patrol conducted a substantive analysis of the race and ethnicity of drivers searched by troopers.

Meanwhile, troopers continued to search Native Americans at a rate much higher — more than five times — than that of whites, an analysis by InvestigateWest shows. The Patrol also continued conducting searches at an elevated rate for blacks, Latinos and Pacific Islanders.

And yet when troopers did decide to search white motorists, they were more likely to find drugs or other contraband, records show.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Driving while Indian? You're more likely to be searched by the Washington State Patrol

Overview of Tribal Crime and Justice

Studies suggest that crime rates are much higher for Native Americans compared with the national average. [1] According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, American Indians (AI) and Alaska Natives (AN) experience violent crimes at rates far greater than the general population. [2]Representative studies of crime and violence, however, have never been done across all tribal communities.

 

[tall73]

I haven't lived there either, but I have spent considerable time there, mostly in the lower half and San Diego and LA. I don't think my generalizations are off or unfair.

Well you understand that they don't need probable cause to stop you, right? Just reasonable suspicion....it's a lower standard.

Reasonable suspicion - Wikipedia

I can see how frustrating that would be...reasonable suspicion can be gained just from matching a couple of aspects of a suspect description.

Since we're all sharing anecdotes, I'll share one of mine. I used to visit a gf who worked night shift at a hotel. In a space of about 2 years I got pulled over 12 times in the same spot. It was a section of road that went from 35 to 45mph and was used as a speed trap. I was definitely speeding the first time...and I got ticketed. I can only assure you that every other time, I was driving like a nun.

I only got the one ticket, but 3 stops involved either a very rude or hostile cop. I actually screamed right in my face when I pointed out that the 45 speed limit sign was visible just 20 yards away. I submitted to 1 search and 3 or 4 sobriety tests.

I don't think it was justified, even if they thought they were helping. I doubt that those who are pulled over for being black or wearing certain clothes think it is justified either.

The thing is I knew what they were doing. I was driving a road that led from a college town with a lot of bars to a highway. They were trying to keep drunk drivers from killing themselves or others on the highway. Was I being profiled? Probably. None said they pulled me over because I fit the profile of 9 out of 10 DUIs they catch....an early 20s white male driving a cheap car....but that's probably the case for at least a few of those stops.

It doesn't justify profiling me....but what's the overall outcome? If inconveniencing 100 guys like me nabs 1 DUI....and every year this stops a person or two from getting into a fatal crash on the highway, it's hard for me to be too upset about the stops....even if I think they aren't justified.

You also note it was not justified. If they see signs such as failure to maintain lane, etc. then they have a reason to stop. Better to focus on signs of impairment than a profile.

 

[SummerMadness]

I don't think it was justified, even if they thought they were helping. I doubt that those who are pulled over for being black or wearing certain clothes think it is justified either.

It isn’t justified, behavior should be investigated, not look. One of the worst forms of logic is to claim the crime rate of one group is at a certain level, this justifying stopping those people. The problem is, these stops are also elevated for other non-white groups, including Native Americans, Latinos, and Pacific Islanders. The racist attitude supposes that all these groups are more criminal in their driving style as opposed to the common factor, the discriminatory practices of police officers. Study after study has demonstrated this point, yet the stans keep coming out of the woodwork to defend every form of misconduct.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Since we're all sharing anecdotes, I'll share one of mine. I used to visit a gf who worked night shift at a hotel. In a space of about 2 years I got pulled over 12 times in the same spot. It was a section of road that went from 35 to 45mph and was used as a speed trap. I was definitely speeding the first time...and I got ticketed. I can only assure you that every other time, I was driving like a nun.

I only got the one ticket, but 3 stops involved either a very rude or hostile cop. I actually screamed right in my face when I pointed out that the 45 speed limit sign was visible just 20 yards away. I submitted to 1 search and 3 or 4 sobriety tests.

The thing is I knew what they were doing. I was driving a road that led from a college town with a lot of bars to a highway. They were trying to keep drunk drivers from killing themselves or others on the highway. Was I being profiled? Probably. None said they pulled me over because I fit the profile of 9 out of 10 DUIs they catch....an early 20s white male driving a cheap car....but that's probably the case for at least a few of those stops.

It doesn't justify profiling me....but what's the overall outcome? If inconveniencing 100 guys like me nabs 1 DUI....and every year this stops a person or two from getting into a fatal crash on the highway, it's hard for me to be too upset about the stops....even if I think they aren't justified.

You essentially just shrugged away the fourth amendment.

The problem is that the damage doesn’t stop at your being inconvenienced. A police stop is a tense, potentially dangerous encounter where mistakes by either party can be fatal. Bogus stops erode the tust the community needs to have in the police in order to feel safe and that the police need from the community in order to do their jobs. Bogus arrests stemming from something as otherwise-mundane as those bad attitudes you mentioned can be ruinous to the person arrested.

There are ways to police DUI’s that aren’t so lazy and illegal.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You essentially just shrugged away the fourth amendment.

I really didn't...

I don't know if I was being profiled. It could be that some cops were keyed into something I did while driving that they thought merited stopping me. It could be that I was stopped for reasons that were completely valid that I was unaware of.

There's a big difference between "it's possible I was profiled, maybe even likely"....and knowing that I was.

The problem is that the damage doesn’t stop at your being inconvenienced. A police stop is a tense, potentially dangerous encounter where mistakes by either party can be fatal.

Fatal police encounters happen when the cop has to respond to a lethal or potentially lethal threat about 99% of the time...

The dozen or so times a year you're talking about make up such a tiny fraction of stops that it's not really relevant to a discussion on profilling.

Bogus stops erode the tust the community needs to have in the police in order to feel safe and that the police need from the community in order to do their jobs.

You know what else erodes trust in police? If they're ineffective at combating crime. Oddly, people always seem less concerned about that outcome.

 

[Ana the Ist]

One of the worst forms of logic is to claim the crime rate of one group is at a certain level, this justifying stopping those people.

Except nobody made that argument...I know I didn't.