Birth Control

[Lotar]

Thank you. I like to tell my son (now almost 14) I risked my life to have him and he was worth it.

Honestly, I really don't think I would ever have the strength of character that you did. That really is amazing and God truly did bless you for it.

 

[desmalia]

Funny. Your own sect had the same interpretation as us not even 60 years ago. It is sad that so many Christians have adopted the secular world's standards of morality.

Well, first I don't really subscribe to a particular sect. I just happen to go to a Mennonite church and like a lot of what they stand for. (I would have chosen "other" for my denomination, but that too often these days seems to represent the growing number of Universalists out there. )

Second, really the saddest thing here is how legalistic some people in this thread are, and how they dare to call it biblical. I'm an extremely conservative believer, but I am very much against twisting Scripture to support my own personal bias, regardless of how "conservative" that bias may be. Some of you are so blinded by this man-made doctrine that you can't even see the difference between sin and God-given choices. No, instead, those of us who use birth control methods are compared to homosexuals, murderers, and people who would have sex with animals. Meanwhile most of the logical points made on this discussion are completely ignored in favour of cheap shots, personal experience (which of course MUST be authoritative ), and various verses ripped out of context.

I wonder if it's even worth discussing that collection of verses you copied from that website when legalistic hearts grow so hard.

 

[Lotar]

I'm an extremely conservative believer

Do you believe the use of contraception is a sin? No? Okay, you are not an "extremely conservative believer".

 

[icedtea]

What was the orignial greek of that verse?

 

[Lumen]

Yes and no, respectively.



Yes.



Contraception is immoral.



“Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit? Where there are medicines of sterility? Where there is murder before the birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. Do you see that from drunkenness comes fornication, from fornication adultery, from adultery murder? Indeed, it is something worse than murder and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you contemn the gift of God, and fight with His laws? What is a curse, do you seek as though it were a blessing, and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter?”
-St. John Chrysostom, Homily on St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans

“They exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption.”
-St. Epiphanios

Please explain what is wrong with sex between a husband and wife just because they block the possibility of having a child?

Why must we be subjected to either having a large number of children that we may not be able to support or abstaining from sex?

Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.

#1. It was more of a suggestion, not a command.

#2. The world needed to be populated with human life in those times. Now, it is overpopulated. We have been fruitful and multiplied too much.

Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.

Fertility and procreation are blessings. So is food. Does that mean we overindulge and overeat? No. We moderate and control our intake.

Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground.

Onan was killed for not fulfilling his responsibility to his brother's wife.

Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.

Was it really a command? And why wasn't he killed, hmmm?

Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.
Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.

I suppose God killed everyone who had a wet dream too.

And I guess that after the woman goes through menopause, it's evil to have sex then because the sperm is "wasted". It doesn't have any effect.

Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.

Have you ever thought that God's plan involved contraception?

Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This
opened the floodgates of error).

It's not a fundamental truth. It's a legalistic lie.

Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.

Of course. If a model plane you build has a bent wing, it's defective.

1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."

Once again I ask you, haven't you ever considered the possibility that God's will involves them using contraception, and that's why they want to use it?

Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.

Who exactly are you to tell us what married couples should or shouldn't do? God doesn't even say anything in regards to that.

I didn't respond to everything since there was too much, but as far as I'm concerned you're just pulling stuff out of thin air.

No I do not. I am calling sin sin, that is it. I have not accused anyone of practicing it, nor have I inquired. If someone takes offense because I call fornication sin, it is no problem of mine. Niether is it a problem of mine if someone takes offense because I rightly call the use of contraception sinful.

Be careful. I wouldn't go as far as to say something is evil unless there is undeniable proof in the bible that it is if I were you.

There's a verse that talks about being careful that you don't call something evil good, or something good evil, because that is blasphemy.

That last bit is the important part. Your position is not based on common sense. It is not based on science. It is not based on a reasonable critique of all sides of the issue (by your own admission you cannot see the other side of the issue). It is based on what you have been taught. Nothing more.

Right.

I think birth control is an issue between yourself and God. If you think it's wrong, fine. Don't use it. But don't say that it's wrong for everyone to do.

 

[desmalia]

Do you believe the use of contraception is a sin? No? Okay, you are not an "extremely conservative believer".

Ah, yet another misinformed judgement.

 

[Lotar]

Ah, yet another misinformed judgement.

If I told you I believed that abortion and gay marriage were perfectly acceptable, and then claimed to be extremely convervative, would you believe me?

 

[desmalia]

If I told you I believed that abortion and gay marriage were perfectly acceptable, and then claimed to be extremely convervative, would you believe me?

Murder and homosexual acts are very clearly sins according to the Bible. So the comparison is meaningless.

Now, I personally don't believe that women should be pastors. But if you told me you believe they should, I wouldn't immediately assume you're not conservative. And the Bible even ADDRESSES that issue, unlike the issue of birth control.

 

[Lotar]

Murder and homosexual acts are very clearly sins according to the Bible. So the comparison is meaningless.

Most people who think they are okay don't think so.

Now, I personally don't believe that women should be pastors. But if you told me you believe they should, I wouldn't immediately assume you're not conservative. And the Bible even ADDRESSES that issue, unlike the issue of birth control.

That doesn't help your case.

 

[catlover]

Funny. Your own sect had the same interpretation as us not even 60 years ago. It is sad that so many Christians have adopted the secular world's standards of morality.

Fortunately, her "sect" was absolutely right about slavery in America. While many churches endorsed slavery~ one particular old church which claims it's Christ's Church thought slavery was morally acceptable.

The same goes for birth control. Many churches once thought it was a sin and learned otherwise.

I have more respect for a "sect" that will right a wrong.

AS for the backward Protestant remark...someone is "advanced" by following some misinformed theologian's writings? Many early church theologians hated women because they didn't like the physiological responses their body made when they thought of women.

 

[tulc]

Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death.

Being gay is wrong because you can't get pregnant?
tulc(uhm ok)

 

[Lotar]

Being gay is wrong because you can't get pregnant?
tulc(uhm ok)

Actually, that was one of St. Augustine's arguments.

The Church's stance is not that procreation is the sole purpose for sex, just that it cannot be seperated from that purpose.

 

[Lumen]

Lord have mercy.

If you think we are the instigators, then you truly have no idea how our society treats those who do not sin in this way.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49074

"Those who do not sin in this way".

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

You claim it's a sin, but every verse you provide that supposedly proves it does not prove it at all.

I can't help that society thinks that way.

 

[desmalia]

That doesn't help your case.

Well at least you admit that you've decided to put me on trial.

 

[Nadiine]

Oh that's right... Women are saved through chlidbearing. So that means if I never have kids I'm going to hell. Oh well.

Oh oh, I guess I'm going to hell too.

(does adoption count?)

 

[desmalia]

OK, here we go.

Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.
Uh huh. Here we have blessings for specific purposes and note that includes land? Where is the land that is also promissed if this applies to everyone for all time? There was a fantastic post on this a while back, but I see you still choose to ignore it.
Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God. Yes it was a blessing - to JACOB. Also, note: more land was blessed here too.
Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground. This was previously discussed at length. Onan was killed because of the hardness of his heart as displayed by his choices to dishonour his brother, his brother's wife, and God.
Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed. Right. he wasn't killed. He also didn't have a hardened heart. See?
Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed. Pure speculation, not based on anything Scriptural.
Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death. THAT's what this guy is basing his assumptions on?
Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness.
So what does that say for those who are barren or have miscarriages? Are they then cursed??? I've asked that before, but no one seems to want to answer that one.
Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy. Again, pure human speculation. nothing biblical to support it.
Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error). It amazes me that some people can't recognize things as sin unless they can equate their own doctrines to them. Homosexual acts and sex with animals are sin, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with whether a child results.
Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.
Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.
Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.
This little collection made me laugh out loud. Does this guy even realize what he's suggesting? Thhis must mean that all people who have any kind of deformity, even a sprained ankle are sinning.
Matthew 19:12
"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
Note: Christ is not condemning them for being eunuchs, is He? He's not calling them an abominationon telling them to repent. This goes directly against the idea that "crushed testicles are a sin. We know the Bible does not contradict itself. So the next step would be to go back to those earlier verses and look at the context.

Oh yes, and it also sounds like this fellow doesn't have a clue what a vasectomy is. There's no "crushing" going on.
1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."
WE've been over this line of "reasoning" already here as well. By that concept, we don't need to wear a seatbelt either because we don't want to deny God's potential "will" to take us home the next time we're in a car accident. This may shock some people here, but people can use birth control and still seek God's will in their lives.
Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.
(Still not a command in sight.)
Hosea 9:11; Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.
Here we go again. Take a historic event (still no commands!), twist it all around, and try to relate it to something totally unrelated.
Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one.
Yep, there are three in the marriage covenant. God, husband, and wife. Nowhere does it say that kids seal the deal. (Again, this verse it totally unrelated, and guess what.. yep you guessed it. No commands!)
Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.
Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.
This passage is about idolatry. Worshiping other gods. Totally unrelated (yet again) to anything to do with birth control.
Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.
There's not even a mention of offspring in this verse! (Nice that he threw it in though. A little nugget of unrelated truth amidst the garbage. )
Matt. 19:6; Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.
How this guy drew that conclusion from those verses I can't even begin to imagine. Not to mention that this concept again totally ignores the barren and the older married couples.
Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.
Again, this guy does not understand what a hardened heart is. In addition, we're not even talking about people withholding a gift from God! Next.
Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.
By this guy's calculation, all people who have sex for any reason other than to make a baby will be turned over to homosexual desires. Again, the verse it totally and completely unrelated.
1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will. Yep. Still has nothing to do with birth control.
Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.
And here we have a passage about doing good works. Still no mention of birth control.
Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.
Oh, so THAT's where TC got this little quote from. Interesting how this guy equates sperm and eggs with love. Again, absolutely NOTHING in this passage about birth control.
Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.
Ah, beware of the false circumcision? Well that MUST mean vasectomies. I hear they were rampant in those days. Nope sorry, missing the context again.
1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.
I figured he's try to use this one. Again, he's ignoring barren and single women or assuming they must be cursed. Out of context. This one is probably the most often used to support the concept that women are useless unless they have kids. I'll say it again. Out of context.
Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman.
That's nice. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the issue (again).
Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 -
Here are those verses for ya:
Rev. 9:21: and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
21:8: But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
22:15: Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
Gal. 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions
these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful.
Again, quite a leap. And if he's saying this, he must hate all medicine, huh? That's a whole other discussion. Again, nothing to do with birth control. Not to mention that it fails to mention other methods like condoms, etc.
Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall).
(This has already been discussed, so I'm not going to drag it up again.)
Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.
Well how generous!

NOW, since you're so sure there are actually Scriptures that support your doctrine about birth control being evil, let's hear 'em. There wasn't even one in that mess. (Thanks for wasting my time, btw.) And if you're going to quote a website, you might want to find a better one than that.

 

[Miracle Storm]

This thread has been cleaned up.

Please remember to show Christian love and charity when discussing issues that can sometimes become heated.
No Flaming please
[rule2.1]

Please continue

 

[icedtea]

How long has birth control been around anyway?
Didn't women improvise in the "old days"?

 

[rainbowbright]

AS for the backward Protestant remark...someone is "advanced" by following some misinformed theologian's writings? Many early church theologians hated women because they didn't like the physiological responses their body made when they thought of women.

 

[rainbowbright]

Oh oh, I guess I'm going to hell too.

(does adoption count?)

and