Birth Control

[Dannager]

What about barriers? Diaphragms? Condoms?
What about when your wife is too tired and too old to give you any more children?
What about when she has a prolapse?
What about when her life would be endangered by another pregnancy?
What then?

That would require Lotar to critically examine the issue.

 

[fuzzymel]

I am on medication that would damage/maybe even kill an unborn child. If I wasnt on my medication I would struggle to get out of bed it has made my life mine again.

Should I be throwing away my contraception then to have my medication force miscarriages? I dont believe in doing that at all.

 

[WalkingforHim]

Really? How so? As far as I can tell, I have not assumed what anyones position is on anything.

You just assumed my position on fornication yesterday, and never did back up your accusation.

How quickly we forget.

Who said I was making anyone else's sins my buisness? Did I ask anyone if they use contraception?

You care enough to label those who disagree with you as stupid, immoral, and spiritually ignorant.

 

[Lotar]

You just assumed my position on fornication yesterday, and never did back up your accusation.

How quickly we forget.

I did take back the accusation. The problem has more to do with your misunderstandings concerning marriage, which caused me to wrongly interpret it to mean you thought fornication was acceptable under certain circumstances. I apologise.

You care enough to label those who disagree with you as stupid, immoral, and spiritually ignorant.

And I have been called stupid, backwards and sexist.

I certainly do care, as we all should when our fellow man sins.

 

[tulc]

Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful ("fertile") and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God's plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.


Gen. 28:3 - Isaac's prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God.

Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his sperm on the ground.

Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed.

Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.

Gen. 38:9 - also, the author's usage of the graphic word "seed," which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan's death.

Exodus 23:25-26;
Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God's plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.

Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).

Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.

Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.

Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.

1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring "not your will God, but my will be done."

Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God's precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.

Hosea 9:11;
Jer. 18:21 - God punishes Israel by preventing pregnancy. Contraception is a curse, and married couples who use contraception are putting themselves under the same curse.

Mal. 2:14 - marriage is not a contract (which is a mere exchange of property or services). It is a covenant, which means a supernatural exchange of persons. Just as God is three in one, so are a husband and wife, who become one flesh and bring forth new life, three in one. Marital love is a reflection of the Blessed Trinity.

Mal. 2:15 - What does God desire? Godly offspring. What is contraception? A deliberate act against God's will. With contraception, a couple declares, "God may want an eternal being created with our union, but we say no." Contraception is a grave act of selfishness.

Matt. 19:5-6 - Jesus said a husband and wife shall become one. They are no longer two, but one, just as God is three persons, yet one. The expression of authentic marital love reintegrates our bodies and souls to God, and restores us to our original virginal state (perfect integration of body and soul) before God.

Matt. 19:6;
Eph. 5:31 - contraception prevents God's ability to "join" together. Just as Christ's love for the Church is selfless and sacrificial, and a husband and wife reflect this union, so a husband and wife's love for each other must also be selfless and sacrificial. This means being open to new life.

Acts 5:1-11 - Ananias and Sapphira were slain because they withheld part of a gift. Fertility is a gift from God and cannot be withheld.

Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.

1 Cor. 6:19-20 - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; thus, we must glorify God in our bodies by being open to His will.

Gal. 6:7-8 - God is not mocked for what a man sows. If to the flesh, corruption. If to the Spirit, eternal life.

Eph. 5:25 - Paul instructs husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, by giving his entire body to her and holding nothing back. With contraception, husbands tell their wives, I love you except your fertility, and you can have me except for my fertility. This love is a lie because it is self-centered, and not self-giving and life-giving.

Eph. 5:29-31; Phil. 3:2 - mutilating the flesh (e.g., surgery to prevent conception) is gravely sinful. Many Protestant churches reject this most basic moral truth.

1 Tim. 2:15 - childbearing is considered a "work" through which women may be saved by God's grace.

Deut. 22:13-21 – these verses also show that God condemns pre-marital intercourse. The living expression of God’s creative love is reserved for a sacramental marriage between one man and one woman.

Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15;
Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word "sorcery." The Greek word is "pharmakeia" which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall). Contraception is a lie that has deceived millions, but the Church is holding her arms open wide to welcome back her children who have strayed from the truth.

Wow. Uhmmm not to quibble but all you put up (again) was someones ideas about those scriptures, any chance of putting the actual scriptures up to see for ourselves?
tulc(where did you get this by the way? did you write it?)

 

[tulc]

Lev. 21:17,20 - crushed testicles are called a defect and a blemish before God. God reveals that deliberate sterilization and any other methods which prevent conception are intrinsically evil.

Deut. 23:1 - whoever has crushed testicles or is castrated cannot enter the assembly. Contraception is objectively sinful and contrary, not only to God's Revelation, but the moral and natural law.

Deut. 25:11-12 - there is punishment for potential damage to the testicles, for such damage puts new life at risk. It, of course, follows that vasectomies, which are done with willful consent, are gravely contrary to the natural law.

Not to derail the thread, but I always thought it interesting that one of the first non-Jewish converts was a eunich, showing God had a totally different idea about who could or couldn't be part of His Church.
tulc(sorry, please continue!)

 

[Lotar]

Not to derail the thread, but I always thought it interesting that one of the first non-Jewish converts was a eunich, showing God had a totally different idea about who could or couldn't be part of His Church.
tulc(sorry, please continue!)

God also made great use of a convert who previously put His people to death. I hardly think that means He is accepting of that behavior.

 

[WalkingforHim]

And I have been called stupid, backwards and sexist.

I certainly do care, as we all should when our fellow man sins.

So you admit, your nose is somewhere it doesn't belong?

Whatever I called you, I did so to bring to your attention your insults and rude behavior.

I did take back the accusation. The problem has more to do with your misunderstandings concerning marriage, which caused me to wrongly interpret it to mean you thought fornication was acceptable under certain circumstances. I apologise.

I must have missed it.

 

[Lotar]

So you admit, your nose is somewhere it doesn't belong?

No I do not. I am calling sin sin, that is it. I have not accused anyone of practicing it, nor have I inquired. If someone takes offense because I call fornication sin, it is no problem of mine. Niether is it a problem of mine if someone takes offense because I rightly call the use of contraception sinful.

 

[desmalia]

Wow. Uhmmm not to quibble but all you put up (again) was someones ideas about those scriptures, any chance of putting the actual scriptures up to see for ourselves?
tulc(where did you get this by the way? did you write it?)

A quick search reveals that.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/contraception.html
(isn't it nice when people think for themselves instead of just quoting websites?)

 

[tulc]

God also made great use of a convert who previously put His people to death. I hardly think that means He is accepting of that behavior. (emph. added)

But...that was the point wasn't it? You couldn't even join the congregation if you were a eunich, and the first thing out of the box "BANG!" He brings in a eunich! Not that I think we should all go become eunichs ( ) it was just interesting.
tulc(but that's another thread)

 

[tulc]

Niether is it a problem of mine if someone takes offense because I rightly call the use of contraception sinful.

Ahhhh still not proven
tulc(not to quibble)

 

[Lotar]

Ahhhh still not proven
tulc(not to quibble)

To you. That is fine. If someone does not want to accept a certain behavior is wrong, then there is nothing that really can be done about it.

..unless, of course, you do elect me as the Basilius, at which time I would outlaw its use...

 

[tulc]

..unless, of course, you do elect me as the Basilius, at which time I would outlaw its use...

OH NO!!
tulc(man, I'll just have to look for some mercy!)

 

[rainbowbright]

It's obvious that's there's nothing we can do to get people here to realize that using bc is sinful behavior. You can only see one side of the issue and not the other. On the other hand, you can't convince those of us who do believe it's sinful behavior to not use birth control. God does exis tbeyond the Bible and this particular issue goes way beyond the Bible; you can't prove it, but merely common sense when thinking how God created us and we were meant to be creators, but then we take things into our own hands. Do what you will, I can't stop you and I try not to judge anyone (and I'm sorry if I have), but based on what I have been taught and believe and what the Orthodox church upholds, it is a sin.

 

[Dannager]

It's obvious that's there's nothing we can do to get people here to realize that using bc is sinful behavior. You can only see one side of the issue and not the other. On the other hand, you can't convince those of us who do believe it's sinful behavior to not use birth control. God does exis tbeyond the Bible and this particular issue goes way beyond the Bible; you can't prove it, but merely common sense when thinking how God created us and we were meant to be creators, but then we take things into our own hands. Do what you will, I can't stop you and I try not to judge anyone (and I'm sorry if I have), but based on what I have been taught and believe and what the Orthodox church upholds, it is a sin.

That last bit is the important part. Your position is not based on common sense. It is not based on science. It is not based on a reasonable critique of all sides of the issue (by your own admission you cannot see the other side of the issue). It is based on what you have been taught. Nothing more.

 

[icedtea]

Though I was out of church during my marriage, what would it have thought about me and my husband abstaining? He had aids.
I didn't use birth control, and in fact, we tried 8 months to conceive.
(we did, and I am fine. don't try this at home or anywhere)

 

[Lotar]

Though I was out of church during my marriage, what would it have thought about me and my husband abstaining? He had aids.
I didn't use birth control, and in fact, we tried 8 months to conceive.
(we did, and I am fine. don't try this at home or anywhere)

That is a beautiful story.

 

[icedtea]

That is a beautiful story.

Thank you. I like to tell my son (now almost 14) I risked my life to have him and he was worth it.

 

[Lotar]

Aw, don't lose heart! If there are so many major cults out there who can so effectively twist Scripture into proving their own doctrines, you can too! Just keep on ignoring context, and you'll do just fine.

Funny. Your own sect had the same interpretation as us not even 60 years ago. It is sad that so many Christians have adopted the secular world's standards of morality.